Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dear Wiggo]

Despite training with Ellingworth in early 2009, Wiggo played no part in Sky's masterplan, which was always to sign Cav to bag lots of wins in 2010-2012 before launching Kennaugh (or whoever "the man" was) on the GT trail in a serious fashion.

For whatever reason, Cav didn't sign for Sky initially and Wiggo surprised everyone with his 2009 Tour performance. It must have surprised Sky, as presumably had they known his potential in early 2009, they'd have signed him for a much lower salary and much lower payoff to Garmin than they had to shell out when they signed him in late 2009.

Wiggo training with Ellingworth in early 2009 appears more like him wanting to stick with what he was comfortable with - i.e. the GB squad setup - rather than some masterplan by Sky to prepare him for future GT success once they'd lured him away from Garmin.

And it is this exact same thing that has me completely stumped.

Krebs Cycle and acoggan both carry on about Brad's awesome MAOD and how it points to his potential for GT (or road I don't remember exactly) success.

But Brailsford, who had literally held Brad's hand for all those World champ and Olympic medals: clueless about Brad's GT potential.

All the BC scientists and video analysis experts and masseurs and Dr Steven Peters. Rod Ellingworth, who, as you point out, was Brad's comfort zone. Jonathon Vaughters, even though here he mentions Brad's MAOD (and you'd wonder how the heck he'd know but I digress) had CVV as team leader for Garmin.

All of them: completely and utterly clueless about Brad's potential.

And out of the blue: 4th place.

Just a complete surprise to everyone.

Only now, after the fact, do we get PhDs and Garmin team manager saying "Meh, of course he could do that. Always knew he had it in him.".

Krebs even goes so far as to cite short TT examples vs Cancellara or a hilly stage at l"Avenir. None of it backs up the 2009 result though.

 

[Snafu352]

...And ALL of it at Sky and OGRE is because of people like us putting them to the test....

I doubt very very much that any of the recent events in cycling have got anything to do with the clinic, however much certain of it's members would like to think so!

 

[JimmyFingers]

Yes, but without the circular arguments in the Clinic that stuff would be in the Professional Road Racing forum, and this thread would be much shorter. Most of this thread is Betonköpfe on both sides of the debate. If it was just pro-Sky Betonköpfe the thread wouldn't even exist, or would only exist in the Professional Road Racing forum. If it was just anti-Sky Betonköpfe it would exist but would have petered out like the Cobo and Menchov threads.


That's because this is the only place to discuss doping in the forum. There are lots of threads about Sky, but for the sake of making the rest of the forum readable it makes more sense to put that which is not legitimately new information into the ongoing megathread. And then anything that IS legitimately new gets posted in here anyway. Easy to see how the thread has swelled to thousands of posts.

We seem to be focusing soley on the attention Sky gets rather than the main point of my original post: that Sky have made it so obvious it would be moronic to be actually doping. I still feel you are turning a blind eye to, or even justifying the abuse that goes on here. Recently I have been told by two different posters that I masterbate over Sky riders, I have also been invited to Australia to be punched in the face. It's hard to suck it in, breath deeply and let things like that go, because there seems little or no moderation of this forum.

In fact moderation only occured after Hoggo reported an admittedly very dark (but brilliant) joke I made about Wiggins crashing yesterday, and attributing it to doper's fatigue, in a parody of the way certain posters seize on any snippet on information and twist it to try to make it reflect as badly as it can on the character involved. In Wiggins' case it has grown to epedemic proportions and only serves to undermine the thread and more reasoned, cognitive debate.

 

[bobbins]

From what I know, Sky set their Tour victory target year as 2014 as they were banking on one of the guys in the Academy at the time. That is, someone in his teens at the time who would be bid 20s by 2014. Pete Kennaugh has always been spoken of as "the man" in this respect.

Despite training with Ellingworth in early 2009, Wiggo played no part in Sky's masterplan, which was always to sign Cav to bag lots of wins in 2010-2012 before launching Kennaugh (or whoever "the man" was) on the GT trail in a serious fashion.

For whatever reason, Cav didn't sign for Sky initially and Wiggo surprised everyone with his 2009 Tour performance. It must have surprised Sky, as presumably had they known his potential in early 2009, they'd have signed him for a much lower salary and much lower payoff to Garmin than they had to shell out when they signed him in late 2009.

Wiggo training with Ellingworth in early 2009 appears more like him wanting to stick with what he was comfortable with - i.e. the GB squad setup - rather than some masterplan by Sky to prepare him for future GT success once they'd lured him away from Garmin.

I don't think Froome registered on Sky's radar as a serious rider until the Vuelta in 2011, as otherwise, as others have stated, he would not have been consigned to the "out of contract" scrap heap.

I thought Wiggins was trained by Sutton with subsequent help from Kerrison? I'm sure I read somewhere, a long time ago that Sutton said Wiggins had grand tour potential.

Doesn't Ellingworth just look after Cav in the main as well as preparing training program's for some of the others?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Krebs even goes so far as to cite short TT examples vs Cancellara or a hilly stage at l"Avenir. None of it backs up the 2009 result though.

Perhaps this should be discussed in the Garmin thread

 

[thehog]

It was when Froome came from nowhere in the 2011 Vuelta that I was reminded of my Father In Law's saying about investments: "If something seems too good to be true, then it most likely is."

After this, one has to be suspicious of Sky, although this obviously doesn't mean that every argument put forward against them is valid!

I agree. Often when you turn the argument around it easier to digest.

If Sky are clean then it's the single most impressive performance I've seen in any bike race ever. Season as well. The Tour's team domination from Janurary to September was incredible. In an era when doping at the Tour is still a big problem they managed to come along "clean" and dominate to the point that no one could attack.

If they are clean then they certainly did an amazing job of riding clean but looking dirty.

If any other team had rode like they did and had a guy like Froome most would think they were doping. If LiquiGas rode like Sky then it would be obvious. If Movistar rode like Sky no one would be arguing.

Right now Sky are clean. But history has shown you can't keep up the facade forever.

2013 will be an interesting season.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Ah the joys of deleted posts. Can anyone find this post from this thread:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=956843#post956843

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Repoxygen is manufactured by a British company.

Genetic therapies can lead to organ failure.

 

[D-Queued]

It was when Froome came from nowhere in the 2011 Vuelta that I was reminded of my Father In Law's saying about investments: "If something seems too good to be true, then it most likely is."

After this, one has to be suspicious of Sky, although this obviously doesn't mean that every argument put forward against them is valid!

To continue the analogy, when you know it is too good to be true, you sell short.

Hence, the inescapable conclusion of doping.

Dave.

 

[thehog]

To continue the analogy, when you know it is too good to be true, you sell short.

Hence, the inescapable conclusion of doping.

Dave.

I think 20+ years of ridiculous excuses from cyclists why they're clean makes it hard to digest what was seen in 2012.

Like a jilted lover. There's only so many times you can watch your partner cheat on you before you give up on them.

Post Tour / Armstrong affair Sky's answer wasn't to show blood profiles or the dossier they presented to ASO. But to sack everyone in their team who had a doping past and never talk about it again.

Too much head scratching for me from Sky's actions.

 

[blackcat]

Like it. I had forgotten he was Kenyan. Thin end of the Kenyan wedge in cycling (jk)?

cleat doping. Efficiency. Cadence

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I thought Wiggins was trained by Sutton with subsequent help from Kerrison? I'm sure I read somewhere, a long time ago that Sutton said Wiggins had grand tour potential.

Doesn't Ellingworth just look after Cav in the main as well as preparing training program's for some of the others?

I would imagine that Wiggo has been under the influence of several coaches in the GB set up. Ellignworth was tasked with winning the Rainbow Stripes for Cav in 2011, as soon as the route was announced, and with Wiggo being an integral part of the plan, he would surely have come under Ellingworth's influence at some stage.

As to who precisely coached Wiggo in early 2009, I'm not sure it really matters, other than it was more the GB/Sky setup than Garmin.

Irrespective of what Sutton said or what is attributed to him as having said, Sky thought so little of Wiggo's GT potential that they didn't sign him until he'd cranked up his market rate by a long way after the 2009 Tour.

It could be that they thought he had the potential, based on early 2009 training efforts, but was too old to take a risk, or maybe they just didn't rate him.

 

[thehog]

Ah the joys of deleted posts. Can anyone find this post from this thread:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=956843#post956843

Classic!......

Originally Posted by JimmyFingers
You are a massive tool: think you are the only ones that follow the sport throughout the season

Worst thing about this disgusting corner of the web: you want Sky to be doping, you want cycling to be dirty. You wallow in the appallingly negativity of the place, waiting every day for new victims and defend it all with a sort of world-weariness. You use it to belittle and dismiss anyone that disagrees: it;s a sad little bullying scenario for a short period you are the big men. Ooh

You think this is only cycling forum in the world? The only reason I bothered posted here was a reaction to the appallingly negativity you lot love to wallow in.

Pro-cycling doesn't belong to you, you are not the arbiters of the sport you play at being. Actually why I am bothering? Bye

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Nope, not it...

 

[No_Balls]

ms hog what a surprise! another post with zero impact

so what do these stats show?.............a nice straight line on a graph

.............a steady ( ok rapid ) progression

"Steady"?

Not so intrested looking into graphics now are we?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

So what caused the Wiggins crash? To me the possibilities are,

1. He was busy smoking a spliff of EPO rather than concentrating on the road.
2. All a publicity stunt to boost sales of the book.
3. He was worried about visits by random testers and he thought they were less likely to bother him if he was in hospital.
4. He lacks a basic knowledge of geography (seen by the fact that he has lied repeatedly about where he lived as a child) and thought he was on a cycle path so didn't look out for traffic.
5. Some **** wasn't looking where he going when he exited the petrol station.

Of course, anyone suggesting number 5 is a 'fanboy'.

 

[No_Balls]

And as for 2013: I dont think it will be any repeat of last year. With the Olympics over and triumphed as well as UCI and McQuaid under pressure it will be to much of a risk asking for "a little favour" from McQuaid during this moment in time. It will be a low key year hoping they can stick to their guns 2014 depending on the situation in the cycling world then.

Wiggo has already been preparing the ground for a suitable explanation ("I hadn´t fun") with Skys shift of focus. When Froome struggles in the mountains and loosing six minutes in the time trials (as in Beijing) it could always be excused "lack of experience".

 

[thehog]

And as for 2013: I dont think it will be any repeat of last year. With the Olympics over and triumphed as well as UCI and McQuaid under pressure it will be to much of a risk asking for "a little favour" from McQuaid during this moment in time. It will be a low key year hoping they can stick to their guns 2014 depending on the situation in the cycling world then.

Wiggo has already been preparing the ground for a suitable explanation ("I hadn´t fun") with Skys shift of focus. When Froome struggles in the mountains and loosing six minutes in the time trials (as in Beijing) it could always be excused "lack of experience".

I would agree. Brailsford was talking of Tour "domination" for years to come in August. I think that concept went out the window when the USADA reason decision dropped.

You can win. Just don't win by too much and for too long!

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I would agree. Brailsford was talking of Tour "domination" for years to come in August. I think that concept went out the window when the USADA reason decision dropped.

You can win. Just don't win by too much and for too long!

Depends on the 'narrative' the UCI and the sponsors want to create. They will choose the option that will make them the most money.

If they think that there is money 'clean Brits socking it to dirty johnny foreigner' - then it'll be more of the same.

We don't know if we are merely hitting the reset button back to 1999. Looking at the degree of support that McQuaid has within the upper reaches of the sport and the clear attempt to sweep the UCI corruption issue under the carpet

Everyone has got the memo with the talking points. You can play rider bingo.

'In the past'

'Biopassport'

'New generation'

'Most tested athletes'

'Zero-tolerance'

'cleanest ever'

I wouldn't make it a drinking game because it is the short cut to alcoholism

Hog - I thought you might like this other early indication of Froome's elite level skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DCe4QVO0PE

Back when he was Chris Froome of Kenya.

I wonder what other thread links the three...

 

[manafana]

no doubt rumours will come from wiggins time in hospital? Get the fresh blood in etc.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

no doubt rumours will come from wiggins time in hospital? Get the fresh blood in etc.

Wasn't that Vino's excuse when they gave him Kash's blood bag by mistake?

 

[thehog]

Depends on the 'narrative' the UCI and the sponsors want to create. They will choose the option that will make them the most money.

If they think that there is money 'clean Brits socking it to dirty johnny foreigner' - then it'll be more of the same.

We don't know if we are merely hitting the reset button back to 1999. Looking at the degree of support that McQuaid has within the upper reaches of the sport and the clear attempt to sweep the UCI corruption issue under the carpet

Everyone has got the memo with the talking points. You can play rider bingo.

'In the past'

'Biopassport'

'New generation'

'Most tested athletes'

'Zero-tolerance'

'cleanest ever'

I wouldn't make it a drinking game because it is the short cut to alcoholism

Hog - I thought you might like this other early indication of Froome's elite level skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DCe4QVO0PE

Back when he was Chris Froome of Kenya.

I wonder what other thread links the three...

"The sport has changed so much"

"Additional controls"

"We're talking about events 10-15 years ago"


Chris Froome from Kenya! I wonder what happened to him? Doesn't look like he would have amounted to much. (And yes he's in good company with the other two!)

 

[jamiephillips]

So what caused the Wiggins crash? To me the possibilities are,

1. He was busy smoking a spliff of EPO rather than concentrating on the road.
2. All a publicity stunt to boost sales of the book.
3. He was worried about visits by random testers and he thought they were less likely to bother him if he was in hospital.
4. He lacks a basic knowledge of geography (seen by the fact that he has lied repeatedly about where he lived as a child) and thought he was on a cycle path so didn't look out for traffic.
5. Some **** wasn't looking where he going when he exited the petrol station.

Of course, anyone suggesting number 5 is a 'fanboy'.

6. He didn't want to go on the Radio 2 breakfast show this morning in case Chris Evans started asking the "hard" questions.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re: #5

I believe the early reports indicated it was a female driver, though more recent ones don't mention either way.

Hope Shane is going to be OK. Glad both were wearing helmets. Could have been much worse.

 

[jamiephillips]

Does the bracketed part of no.4 count as a whereabouts violation??