Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Susan Westemeyer]

Let's not make this personal folks. Remember to keep cool. And don't claim that your speculations are facts.

At least one user is well on the way to a short suspension.

Susan

 

[Joachim]

On the contrary, hog, you haven't asked any questions. You've just made statements. People are asking for you to substantiate them. You won't, probably because you can't, and now you are trying to get people on the run by invoking the demon Armstrong.

 

[ebandit]

ok hoggie discuss this........

Don't forget little Richie Porte and his loose lips.

(

what is this? can you add substance to the above quote ............something
you have mentioned more than once

what did richie say? and what relevance does it have to discussions here in the clinic?

if your so keen on discussion.............discuss............don't bleat on that some members don't agree with yourself

 

[AcademyCC]

In cycling the truth is the hardest thing to hear, find, uncover, discover........

That statement is on the button. Due to the corrupt fools at the UCI nobody can make a definite statement either way. It's very very sad

People should really stop arguing over minutiae and concentrate first on the major problem.

 

[ebandit]

better

That statement is on the button. Due to the corrupt fools at the UCI nobody can make a definite statement either way. It's very very sad

People should really stop arguing over minutiae and concentrate first on the major problem.

it would be better if members did not lay down rules for others

there are already good forum rules to adhere to

 

[Franklin]

If Leipheimer has indeed said that then it is damning indeed for Leinders who up until their point has been guilty by association i.e. a Doctor for Rabobank while the team was known to endorse doping.

Hey Jimmy... there I see you having a bit of amnesia again!

Remember me psting the Court decision against Leinders, naming him as fully involved in doping fraud?
or the statements of riders pointing to him.

Oh I gladly remember you that this was discussed 4 months ago and that I discussed this with you. Saying you didn't know is weird.....

 

[Franklin]

Clearly, Sky should have interviewed Levi for their screening process instead of Leinders.

Next.

Or read the court decision and the newspapers stating his implication.

I posted the many links a few months ago, are you also going to go through a huge bout of amnesia?

There is no way David Brailsford did not know of Leinders past with Rasmussen.

1. DB was already an insider in that era.
2. It was the biggest profile case after Flandis.
3. It was widely reported.
4. Leinders was not just a doctor, but part of the Management team of Rabobank. That was known and will have been at his C.V.
5. DB can't be naive after all he been through with Millar.

All of the above (and the many other things we can deduce) show that DB must have known that Leinders had a blemish.

Everything LL just said is no more than a confirmation of what we knew.

 

[thehog]

Or read the court decision and the newspapers stating his implication.

I posted the many links a few months ago, are you also going to go through a huge bout of amnesia?

There is no way David Brailsford did not know of Leinders past with Rasmussen.

1. DB was already an insider in that era.
2. It was the biggest profile case after Flandis.
3. It was widely reported.
4. Leinders was not just a doctor, but part of the Management team of Rabobank. That was known and will have been at his C.V.
5. DB can't be naive after all he been through with Millar.

All of the above (and the many other things we can deduce) show that DB must have known that Leinders had a blemish.

Everything LL just said is no more than a confirmation of what we knew.

Excellent post Franklin.

Funny that a team that clams; they leave no stone unturned for marginal gains suddenly became so ignorant and unknowing about Lienders.

Lienders role was certainly cloak & dagger at Sky. No one really knew what he was up to.... we still don't.

We need answers and they're not coming.

No wonder there's so much speculation. Sky need to start talking and soon.

 

[JRanton]

I can't wait to see JTL smash up the World Tour and this thread will go ballistic.

Indeed.

Meanwhile news reaches us that Wiggins (and presumably his Giro boys) will be returning to El Teide in Tenerife.

http://www.biciciclismo.com/cas/site/noticias-ficha.asp?id=58151

 

[Franklin]

To sum it up, nothing has changed.

There is only confirmation of known facts. It's distressing that some people still try to handwave the Leinders thing.

Let's be very clear here.

Leinders is a doctor who managed his riders to win 2 Vuelta's (1 after the latest Heras decision), a Giro and almost won a TdF. That's nothing to sneeze at. There aren't many doctors who had the honor to have riders under his wing who win a GT every two years. Leinders might not be Ferrari, but he's obviously pretty good...

If we look at MR we know he was dirty as can be. If we look at DM we would be extremely naive to think he's clean. Considering Geert was the head medic (so he got all medical files) and was part of the management team of Rabo we already knew he was aware of the shehanigans of MR (and probably of DM). That's without looking at the Michael Rasmussen court papers (yes, years before he was hired)... The LL affidavit can't be a surprise. It's inconceivable that a team in this day and age let their stars dope on their own. It's to risky. And if anything Rabo was a team with strong management presence.

Now we go into the hiring. Geert is no virologist, nor did he do any paper on heat strokes. Also, it seems a bit weird to think he would be able to screen all the hangers on in a team to avoid incidents like the Txerra death. Let's be honest... if the goal was exhortion/heat/disease they should and could have picked up an ex-army doctor. AFAIK a rider is just a human being like anyone else, so there is no pressing need to pick leinders. In fact, for the stated reasons Leinders is the wrong choice.

And this is once again one of those areas where all the duplicity comes to light. DB has been spinning and lieing. And the really sad part is that lieing about doctors can only have so many motivators. And in cycling that motivator is always the same thing.

Now we can turn the spotlight to JRanton who pointed out that not only did the hiring of Leinders coincide with the breakthrough of Sky as GT team, but also pointed out that indeed Leinders has been the designated doctor for the core team in the build-up.

1. Leinders was hired when they knew about his past as doctor of dodgy GT winners. There is no way this can be denied.
2. This dodgy doctor then get's the GT assets in his care. *See the list of JRanton
3. These assets start to perform like they haven't done before.

And this is just one of the cornerstones of why Sky needs to be turned inside out. Leinders isn't the first Dodgy staff member (hello Yates!). Rogers (mr. Freiburg, who suddenly has left the team) cheering he never had better numbers. A Wiggins who has foresworn all his previous heartfelt declarations. The list goes on...

And make no mistake, this is no wild speculation, these are facts. Everything can be traced to court orders, affidavits, interviews, palmares.

Those who are critical of Sky base it on undeniable facts that need to be explained. And sadly it gets harder to believe there will be a "clean" explanation. Already with Leinders it seems impossible that Sky is anything other than secretive and beyond any reasonable doubt untruthful about it from the start.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Or read the court decision and the newspapers stating his implication.

I posted the many links a few months ago, are you also going to go through a huge bout of amnesia?

There is no way David Brailsford did not know of Leinders past with Rasmussen.

1. DB was already an insider in that era.
2. It was the biggest profile case after Flandis.
3. It was widely reported.
4. Leinders was not just a doctor, but part of the Management team of Rabobank. That was known and will have been at his C.V.
5. DB can't be naive after all he been through with Millar.

All of the above (and the many other things we can deduce) show that DB must have known that Leinders had a blemish.

Everything LL just said is no more than a confirmation of what we knew.

I am sorry you don't believe in miracles. Why can't an ex-alcoholic who likes to smoke joints not win la Tour. U must be a hater.

 

[thehog]

To sum it up, nothing has changed.

There is only confirmation of known facts. It's distressing that some people still try to handwave the Leinders thing.

Let's be very clear here.

Leinders is a doctor who managed his riders to win 2 Vuelta's (1 after the latest Heras decision), a Giro and almost won a TdF. That's nothing to sneeze at. There aren't many doctors who had the honor to have riders under his wing who win a GT every two years. Leinders might not be Ferrari, but he's obviously pretty good...

If we look at MR we know he was dirty as can be. If we look at DM we would be extremely naive to think he's clean. Considering Geert was the head medic (so he got all medical files) and was part of the management team of Rabo we already knew he was aware of the shehanigans of MR (and probably of DM). That's without looking at the Michael Rasmussen court papers (yes, years before he was hired)... The LL affidavit can't be a surprise. It's inconceivable that a team in this day and age let their stars dope on their own. It's to risky. And if anything Rabo was a team with strong management presence.

Now we go into the hiring. Geert is no virologist, nor did he do any paper on heat strokes. Also, it seems a bit weird to think he would be able to screen all the hangers on in a team to avoid incidents like the Txerra death. Let's be honest... if the goal was exhortion/heat/disease they should and could have picked up an ex-army doctor. AFAIK a rider is just a human being like anyone else, so there is no pressing need to pick leinders. In fact, for the stated reasons Leinders is the wrong choice.

And this is once again one of those areas where all the duplicity comes to light. DB has been spinning and lieing. And the really sad part is that lieing about doctors can only have so many motivators. And in cycling that motivator is always the same thing.

Now we can turn the spotlight to JRanton who pointed out that not only did the hiring of Leinders coincide with the breakthrough of Sky as GT team, but also pointed out that indeed Leinders has been the designated doctor for the core team in the build-up.

1. Leinders was hired when they knew about his past as doctor of dodgy GT winners. There is no way this can be denied.
2. This dodgy doctor then get's the GT assets under his wings.
3. These assets start to perform like they haven't done before.

This is an excellent post; sadly it will avoided by Sky fans. They won't bother to reply to it.

The further point I'd add is Lienders never appeared at races. It was all background workings. Supposedly he was there to deal with saddle sores and heat exhaustion at races but was never at races.

Now contrast that with Prentice Steffen. Highly visible Doctor and at 90%+ of the races at Garmin.

Sadly we're in 'never tested positive" territory and we know how that ends up.

 

[Franklin]

I am sorry you don't believe in miracles. Why can't an ex-alcoholic who likes to smoke joints not win la Tour. U must be a hater.

Even though you say it in jest, I want to answer it:

I'm not a hater. I want Sky to be clean. I see that the performance itself is indeed lower than before, so it could be "believable"

But this is where facts versus faith enter the equation.

- We have many facts that show Sky has a lot of red flags at key points. We also know that these red flags always spell bad news. Again, it's quite a few of those pesky flags.
- "Believable" performance is subjective. I am a decent c-cat, if I do Alpe in 1 hour you probably should check me for doping. On the pro level the differences are small, so whereas highball numbers trigger alarms, lowball figures are no proof at all.

So the facts tell me Sky is very suspicious. What I want to be the truth simply is not relevant.

 

[Netserk]

To sum it up, nothing has changed.

There is only confirmation of known facts. It's distressing that some people still try to handwave the Leinders thing.

Let's be very clear here.

Leinders is a doctor who managed his riders to win 2 Vuelta's (1 after the latest Heras decision), a Giro and almost won a TdF. That's nothing to sneeze at. There aren't many doctors who had the honor to have riders under his wing who win a GT every two years. Leinders might not be Ferrari, but he's obviously pretty good...

If we look at MR we know he was dirty as can be. If we look at DM we would be extremely naive to think he's clean. Considering Geert was the head medic (so he got all medical files) and was part of the management team of Rabo we already knew he was aware of the shehanigans of MR (and probably of DM). That's without looking at the Michael Rasmussen court papers (yes, years before he was hired)... The LL affidavit can't be a surprise. It's inconceivable that a team in this day and age let their stars dope on their own. It's to risky. And if anything Rabo was a team with strong management presence.

Now we go into the hiring. Geert is no virologist, nor did he do any paper on heat strokes. Also, it seems a bit weird to think he would be able to screen all the hangers on in a team to avoid incidents like the Txerra death. Let's be honest... if the goal was exhortion/heat/disease they should and could have picked up an ex-army doctor. AFAIK a rider is just a human being like anyone else, so there is no pressing need to pick leinders. In fact, for the stated reasons Leinders is the wrong choice.

And this is once again one of those areas where all the duplicity comes to light. DB has been spinning and lieing. And the really sad part is that lieing about doctors can only have so many motivators. And in cycling that motivator is always the same thing.

Now we can turn the spotlight to JRanton who pointed out that not only did the hiring of Leinders coincide with the breakthrough of Sky as GT team, but also pointed out that indeed Leinders has been the designated doctor for the core team in the build-up.

1. Leinders was hired when they knew about his past as doctor of dodgy GT winners. There is no way this can be denied.
2. This dodgy doctor then get's the GT assets under his wings.
3. These assets start to perform like they haven't done before.

And this is just one of the cornerstones of why Sky needs to be turned inside out. Leinders isn't the first Dodgy staff member (hello Yates!). Rogers (mr. Freiburg, who suddenly has left the team) cheering he never had better numbers. A Wiggins who has foresworn all his previous heartfelt declarations. The list goes on...

And make no mistake, this is no wild speculation, these are facts. Everything can be traced to court orders, affidavits, interviews, palmares.

Those who are critical of Sky base it on undeniable facts that need to be explained. And sadly it gets harder to believe there will be a "clean" explanation. Already with Leinders it seems impossible that Sky is anything other than secretive and beyond any reasonable doubt untruthful about it from the start.

I Said God Damn

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I'm not a hater. I want Sky to be clean. I see that the performance itself is indeed lower than before, so it could be "believable"

Indeed, it could be believable, for top class born freaks of nature like Fignon, Hinault, LeMond of course. Not some drunk pot smoking track 4k specialist or an alien chicken lookalike.

This has Geert Leinders/Ferrari all over it. Maybe Checcini if we take it back in historical perspective, alas, the chicken came from CSC, even Bjarne didn't see his potential?

 

[AcademyCC]

it would be better if members did not lay down rules for others

there are already good forum rules to adhere to

I see so much knowledge on this forum. At the same time people interrupting solid conversation.

 

[ferryman]

This is an excellent post; sadly it will avoid by Sky fans. They won't bother to reply to it.

The further point I'd add is Lienders never appeared at races. It was all background workings. Supposedly he was there to deal with saddle sores and heat exhaustion at races but was never at races.

Now contrast that with Prentice Steffen. Highly visible Doctor and at 90%+ of the races at Garmin.

Sadly we're in 'never tested positive" territory and we know how that ends up.

I agree Franklin's post is excellent.

Re, the bold, do you know for a fact that he wasn't physically there or just wasn't visible?

 

[ferryman]

Indeed, it could be believable, for top class born freaks of nature like Fignon, Hinault, LeMond of course. Not some drunk pot smoking track 4k specialist or an alien chicken lookalike.

This has Geert Leinders/Ferrari all over it. Maybe Checcini if we take it back in historical perspective, alas, the chicken came from CSC, even Bjarne didn't see his potential?

Nooo, you can't say that Do me a favour and edit FGL. Cheers.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Nooo, you can't say that Do me a favour and edit FGL. Cheers.

Let me guess, u like beer and smoking a joint, afterwards u go to KFC?

Train serious for a year and you will win la Tour ferryman!

I see so much knowledge on this forum. At the same time people interrupting solid conversation.

You were dead right with that initial post.

 

[ferryman]

Let me guess, u like beer and smoking a joint, afterwards u go to KFC?

Train serious for a year and you will win la Tour ferryman!You were dead right with that initial post.

Yes, used to and never But go on and delete, please. It will save grief later Cheers.

 

[thehog]

I agree Franklin's post is excellent.

Re, the bold, do you know for a fact that he wasn't physically there or just wasn't visible?

I think you just answered your own question.

 

[ferryman]

I think you just answered your own question.

I didn't man, help me here, you are a heading for ban and I don;t want to impose it. Do you have evidence?

 

[Froome19]

2. This dodgy doctor then get's the GT assets under his wings.

Great post.

Not being facetious or anything but how do you know that they were taken "under his wing"?

And Hog though we try to find ways out of it I believe most of the Sky fans have admitted to most of what was said in that post, previously. Just to us it does not amount to the same definitive levels of proof which it does to you.

 

[Froome19]

Indeed, it could be believable, for top class born freaks of nature like Fignon, Hinault, LeMond of course. Not some drunk pot smoking track 4k specialist or an alien chicken lookalike.

Seriously?

The levels of training they do on the track, though not totally comparable to those to win the Tour, are in terms of dedication, hours and attention to detail greater than close to any other discipline I am aware of.

And for a rider to be capable of winning on the track at the Olympics and then the Tour (however he has managed to achieve it) certainly labels him a freak of nature in my book.

Likewise what does Froome's appearance on the bike have anything got to do with anything?

 

[biopass]

To sum it up, nothing has changed.

There is only confirmation of known facts. It's distressing that some people still try to handwave the Leinders thing.

Let's be very clear here.

Leinders is a doctor who managed his riders to win 2 Vuelta's (1 after the latest Heras decision), a Giro and almost won a TdF. That's nothing to sneeze at. There aren't many doctors who had the honor to have riders under his wing who win a GT every two years. Leinders might not be Ferrari, but he's obviously pretty good...

If we look at MR we know he was dirty as can be. If we look at DM we would be extremely naive to think he's clean. Considering Geert was the head medic (so he got all medical files) and was part of the management team of Rabo we already knew he was aware of the shehanigans of MR (and probably of DM). That's without looking at the Michael Rasmussen court papers (yes, years before he was hired)... The LL affidavit can't be a surprise. It's inconceivable that a team in this day and age let their stars dope on their own. It's to risky. And if anything Rabo was a team with strong management presence.

Now we go into the hiring. Geert is no virologist, nor did he do any paper on heat strokes. Also, it seems a bit weird to think he would be able to screen all the hangers on in a team to avoid incidents like the Txerra death. Let's be honest... if the goal was exhortion/heat/disease they should and could have picked up an ex-army doctor. AFAIK a rider is just a human being like anyone else, so there is no pressing need to pick leinders. In fact, for the stated reasons Leinders is the wrong choice.

And this is once again one of those areas where all the duplicity comes to light. DB has been spinning and lieing. And the really sad part is that lieing about doctors can only have so many motivators. And in cycling that motivator is always the same thing.

Now we can turn the spotlight to JRanton who pointed out that not only did the hiring of Leinders coincide with the breakthrough of Sky as GT team, but also pointed out that indeed Leinders has been the designated doctor for the core team in the build-up.

1. Leinders was hired when they knew about his past as doctor of dodgy GT winners. There is no way this can be denied.
2. This dodgy doctor then get's the GT assets under his wings.
3. These assets start to perform like they haven't done before.

And this is just one of the cornerstones of why Sky needs to be turned inside out. Leinders isn't the first Dodgy staff member (hello Yates!). Rogers (mr. Freiburg, who suddenly has left the team) cheering he never had better numbers. A Wiggins who has foresworn all his previous heartfelt declarations. The list goes on...

And make no mistake, this is no wild speculation, these are facts. Everything can be traced to court orders, affidavits, interviews, palmares.

Those who are critical of Sky base it on undeniable facts that need to be explained. And sadly it gets harder to believe there will be a "clean" explanation. Already with Leinders it seems impossible that Sky is anything other than secretive and beyond any reasonable doubt untruthful about it from the start.

You forgot the swinning coach who told to be at minimum 90% at their top condition. And that I believe is true. I've been there myself when I was doing Martial Arts 5 days a week. Never felt so good pshysically once you get used to train like a mad man several times a week.