Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[biopass]

And yes I was drinking, partying and smoking for at least 6 hours every friday night in those years

 

[thehog]

I didn't man, help me here, you are a heading for ban and I don;t want to impose it. Do you have evidence?

Apologies.

What I meant was if he did turn up to races we'd know about it. I wasn't trying to be smart.

It was on Cyclingnews own website;

Although the doctor was not part of Sky's Tour de France staff, the team's principal, Dave Brailsford, informed the press that he would lead a full investigation into the hiring of Leinders and his alleged links to doping.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/leinders-not-renewed-after-team-sky-investigation

You'll find similar on Sky's own website for other races. He was used in a sattalite consultive type role.

Similar to say Ferrari or Fuentes*. They no longer appeared at races when it became unfashionable for doping Doctors to appear with a team or riders at races

---

* this no way implies Lienders doped Sky riders whilst at Sky. Just that he had in the past and didn't turn up to Sky's races similar to Ferrari and Fuentes.

 

[python]

And for a rider to be capable of winning on the track at the Olympics and then the Tour (however he has managed to achieve it) certainly labels him a freak of nature in my book

some on this forum, not unreasonably, argued the opposite ever since the 2009 'almost podium'. i was not among those...in fact, i can recall my own 3 yo posts where i did not excluded the transformation. at the least, i argued an elite pursuit specialist was likelier to become a gt asset than a sprinter, even a road sprinter.

that wiggins has got a world class engine capable of maintaining 600+ watts for several minutes at the top of his pursuit days, i have never doubted. does it make him a freak ? on the track, yes. but when a cross is made into a gt land, where freakish RECOVERY as opposed to freakish POWER at VO2 peak rules the roost, things get more complicated.

actually, this is only my second post ever (i can recall) where i expressed an opinion on suspicions against wiggins. the first post was my skeptical assessment of his ability to maintain top form for so very long after winning the tour. and that's where i remain to date, lienders or not.

 

[Alphabet]

Surely no one really thinks that Brailsford hired Leinders without prior knowledge of his past?

 

[Franklin]

Great post.

Not being facetious or anything but how do you know that they were taken "under his wing"?

The list of JRanton shows that indeed Leinders was taking care of the A-riders.

But my use of "under his wing" is probably the wrong expression, should have said "in his care". A consequence of trying to hard to write correct english. I'll edit it

 

[Joachim]

'Handwaving' doesn't have a figurative meaning in English, either. It just means waving one's hand

 

[Dear Wiggo]

'Handwaving' doesn't have a figurative meaning in English, either. It just means waving one's hand

For an ESL, perhaps this may appear true. But most native speakers will know exactly what it entails. A simple google search will reveal the truth of this.

 

[Franklin]

Surely no one really thinks that Brailsford hired Leinders without prior knowledge of his past?

For me this always has been one of the main reasons Dave Brailsford needs to go.

He did not just stretch the rules of hiring, he broke it by hiring someone who has been judged to be involved in doping fraud (See the court papers in the MR case) and beyond any reasonable doubt was involved in MR's scheme; at best as silent enabler (as head medic he has seen all bloodvalues and internal tests) and if LL's and MR's statements carry any weight as active participant*.

Yes, the UCI (Belgian union!) should have banned Leinders after the court order, but that does not make the duplicity of DB any less. And that Sky/DB insultingly held up the banner of clean cycling even after supporting a dodgy doctor (they paid him good money!) is an affront for those who want clean cycling.

* In my opinion this was already clear from the start. The succeses in a dirty era coupled with his position in the organisation, the need for control, it all made clear that the Management team was much deeper involved than even came out of the court decision. Let's be honest... if you have a Pro-cycling team you want to be involved in every medical detail of your assets. Even if only benign interest, you don't want a scandal.

 

[Franklin]

'Handwaving' doesn't have a figurative meaning in English, either. It just means waving one's hand

I advise you to take a look in the Oxford Dictionary.

 

[Joachim]

Ok, just have. It isn't there. I only have the edition with 1300 pages, mind you.

 

[Franklin]

Ok, just have. It isn't there. I only have the edition with 1300 pages, mind you.

noun
the use of gestures and insubstantial language meant to impress or convince:
their patriotic hand-waving lacked sincerity

[as modifier]:
her path of logic and hand-waving explanations

Source:

Oxford online dictionary

 

[Joachim]

Ok, I've just fed that into Google and it has come up with Oxford US Dictionary

It isn't a term used in English, but I'll accept that it is in American English. Never heard it before. Whilst I am out on today's training ride, I'll think of what the equivalent is in English.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Ok, I've just fed that into Google and it has come up with Oxford US Dictionary

.

Another Sky Troll I see has joined us. Joachim - Sky rollin out as many as possible. groan

 

[MatParker117]

Sky only has three employees the rest are contractors and Leinders was interviewed by Steve Peters prior to signing his deal.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Seriously?

The levels of training they do on the track, though not totally comparable to those to win the Tour, are in terms of dedication, hours and attention to detail greater than close to any other discipline I am aware of.

And for a rider to be capable of winning on the track at the Olympics and then the Tour (however he has managed to achieve it) certainly labels him a freak of nature in my book.

Likewise what does Froome's appearance on the bike have anything got to do with anything?

I am not saying Wiggi didn't train a lot but in terms of talent I am pretty sure I am right about his natural talent.

With regards to the Froomster and the Chicken, do you know what is meant by 'the Chicken'?

 

[Joachim]

Another Sky Troll I see has joined us. Joachim - Sky rollin out as many as possible. groan

Keep that tin-foil hat on tight. It will stop the mind waves that the Master Lizard Murdoch is beaming straight into your head from his moonbase on...err...the Moon.

 

[Wiggo Warrior]

Apologies.

What I meant was if he did turn up to races we'd know about it. I wasn't trying to be smart.

It was on Cyclingnews own website;



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/leinders-not-renewed-after-team-sky-investigation

You'll find similar on Sky's own website for other races. He was used in a sattalite consultive type role.

Similar to say Ferrari or Fuentes*. They no longer appeared at races when it became unfashionable for doping Doctors to appear with a team or riders at races

---

* this no way implies Lienders doped Sky riders whilst at Sky. Just that he had in the past and didn't turn up to Sky's races similar to Ferrari and Fuentes.

JRanton's list earlier in the thread has links to three race guides on Sky's own website in the early part of the 2012 season where Sky was successful in their goals and where the team doctor of record was Geert Leinders.

This was indirectly alluded to in Franklin's post which you directly quoted and then added your disputed observation.

 

[Franklin]

Sky only has three employees the rest are contractors and Leinders was interviewed by Steve Peters prior to signing his deal.

Considering the importance of the health of the assets, their shape and the risk for scandals, it is absolutely inconceivable that a team like Sky does not try to control every aspect of the medical state of their riders.

Even without Steven de Jongh, Sky will have done an extensive background check on their medical staff. Any other notion is preposterous. So even if Steve Peters did the interview, Leinders has undoubtedly been extensively discussed by the management team and was a conscious choice.

 

[Joachim]

Possibly, possibly not.

Absolutely definitely if he was brought on to dope riders, or help them dope. If this was the case it seems strange that a team playing such high-stakes on being clean would have brought in an already tainted doctor, who carried such a risk. Also, even stranger that they would have maintained him for so long. My understanding is that teams and riders are very cagey about illicit activities. It isn't a foregone conclusion that Brailsford knew, or considered rumours to be important. He does now.

Never discount c0*k-ups before leaping at conspiracies.

 

[sniper]

Possibly, possibly not.

Absolutely definitely if he was brought on to dope riders, or help them dope. If this was the case it seems strange that a team playing such high-stakes on being clean would have brought in an already tainted doctor, who carried such a risk. Also, even stranger that they would have maintained him for so long. My understanding is that teams and riders are very cagey about illicit activities. It isn't a foregone conclusion that Brailsford knew, or considered rumours to be important. He does now.

Never discount c0*k-ups before leaping at conspiracies.

how lovely this post shows you've run out of arguments.

 

[thehog]

JRanton's list earlier in the thread has links to three race guides on Sky's own website in the early part of the 2012 season where Sky was successful in their goals and where the team doctor of record was Geert Leinders.

This was indirectly alluded to in Franklin's post which you directly quoted and then added your disputed observation.

He was at those races? I think we'll need a link for that.

As my link proves he wasn't at the Tour de France 2012 which I'm not sure if you know is a fairly big race on the ProTour.

Besides what's the point? Are you trying to prove me wrong or that Lienders is the virtue of clean cycling?

This is not about me.

 

[Wiggo Warrior]

He was at those races? I think we'll need a link for that.

As my link proves he wasn't at the Tour de France 2012 which I'm not sure if you know is a fairly big race on the ProTour.

Besides what's the point? Are you trying to prove me wrong or that Lienders is the virtue of clean cycling?

This is not about me.

Since Sky list the doctors on their website we know exactly which races he attended (Gent-Wevelgem was another, link below).

I am not trying to make any points about Leinders other than he was listed as attending races, whether relevant to the Tour build up or not.

http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,24949_7615667,00.html

 

[Franklin]

It isn't a foregone conclusion that Brailsford knew, or considered rumours to be important. He does now.

Never discount c0*k-ups before leaping at conspiracies.

Dave Brailsford got arrested alongside David Millar (and no he wasn't actively involved)... if anyone knows the stakes it's Dave Brailsford.

Are you seriously implying Sky did not do a full background check on one of those who takes care of their key-assets? It's like saying Mac Laren sources it's aerodynamics from the first chop shop they find in the phonebook.

Oh and an example of handwaving: Those: "rumours" were part of a court decision.

 

[thehog]

Since Sky list the doctors on their website we know exactly which races he attended (Gent-Wevelgem was another, link below).

I am not trying to make any points about Leinders other than he was listed as attending races, whether relevant to the Tour build up or not.

http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,24949_7615667,00.html

I'm not following. Just says he was the Doctor. Was he there or not? Can't see any verification of such.

Besides doesn't really matter. Wasn't at the Tour or the Vuelta but working behind the scenes as I early stated.

Sorry. Not buying it.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Possibly, possibly not.

Absolutely definitely if he was brought on to dope riders, or help them dope. If this was the case it seems strange that a team playing such high-stakes on being clean would have brought in an already tainted doctor, who carried such a risk. Also, even stranger that they would have maintained him for so long. My understanding is that teams and riders are very cagey about illicit activities. It isn't a foregone conclusion that Brailsford knew, or considered rumours to be important. He does now.

Never discount c0*k-ups before leaping at conspiracies.

Was overlooking Freiburg and Ferrari when hiring Mick Rogers a similar c*ck-up? Or overlooking Yates' and de Jongh's histories? That's an awful lot of oversight for a team that prides itself on attention to detail.