Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[red_flanders]

If people can't have a discussion about Sky without attacking each other, we'll simply not have a discussion about Sky. We can cool off by ourselves, have me close the thread, or I can hand out some bans to cool foks off. I prefer the former. Please self edit and have your spirited discussion without the vitriol. Y'all know who you are. Thanks.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

But if it was Wiggins, the Tour de France winner, not just any old Sky rider, it would be savage. Coming directly after Armstrong? Savage.

For who? Who would it be savage for.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

But if it was Wiggins, the Tour de France winner, not just any old Sky rider, it would be savage. Coming directly after Armstrong? Savage.

meh, core fans knows the drill and would not be surprised to see Wiggins nailed. TdF fans will continue to watch the show in July. Tour of Britain would die. Enter Tour of Dubai instead.

Hell it may even help cycling to take a 30% haircut on the general payroll.

 

[richtea]

Well I doubt it would change much. Given everything that has come before, the incremental reputational damage at an international scale wouldn't be too great. Wiggins isn't that much of a face.

 

[Grandillusion]

For who? Who would it be savage for.

Not for a person, for the reputation of the sport. It's so high profile now worldwide (relatively) because of Armstrong's rise and fall that what would just be another (yawn) cycling doping scandal would have far greater resonance than usually has been the case. IMO.

I'm aware the hardcore fans don't really care (I've pointed that out myself enough), but any chance of the sport being taken seriously would be lost for a very long time. And sponsors would be out of there pronto. Just my opinion, and it's all hypothetical anyway I know.

 

[The Hitch]

You seem very good at using a lot of words without making a point. Sports fans are fickle, so what? The teams that win the most get the most fans? Stop the press, how terrible and unusual. You seem to be berating people for being people. Yes, we are a bit sh!t, your point is?

I don't believe that Britain is any better or worse than any other country, apart from America. And Scotland (jokes).

I agree 100%. Trying to identify differences in behaviour on national lines is stupid. Like trying to work out which nationalities feel most pain or which nationalities swear the most.

 

[The Hitch]

Not for a person, for the reputation of the sport. It's so high profile now worldwide (relatively) because of Armstrong's rise and fall that what would just be another (yawn) cycling doping scandal would have far greater resonance than usually has been the case. IMO.

I'm aware the hardcore fans don't really care (I've pointed that out myself enough), but any chance of the sport being taken seriously would be lost for a very long time. And sponsors would be out of there pronto. Just my opinion, and it's all hypothetical anyway I know.

Im sorry but this doesnt make much sense. even if a wiggins fall did turn out to be the straw that broke the camels back (and i dont see any indication why it would) then there are still plenty of people out there who dont care of drugs are being used in sports. Others would believe his innocence others would claim that their favorite riders are clean so would see no reason to quit the sport because someone else got caught.

 

[The Hitch]

Well I doubt it would change much. Given everything that has come before, the incremental reputational damage at an international scale wouldn't be too great. Wiggins isn't that much of a face.

I remember talk sport had an interview the day after USADA which caught some attention here because it had a former rider and former organizer of the Tour of Britain Tony Doyle arguing passionately in Fabiani like manner that Armstrong was clean ( 500 tests, personal attacks on his opponent, all the rest).

Anyway in the introduction before this "debate" the radio commentator said that Lance was the only cyclist of any international note before Bradley Wiggins . Of course its just 1 idiot radio presenter, but still.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Not for a person, for the reputation of the sport. It's so high profile now worldwide (relatively) because of Armstrong's rise and fall that what would just be another (yawn) cycling doping scandal would have far greater resonance than usually has been the case. IMO.

I'm aware the hardcore fans don't really care (I've pointed that out myself enough), but any chance of the sport being taken seriously would be lost for a very long time. And sponsors would be out of there pronto. Just my opinion, and it's all hypothetical anyway I know.

That's why the UCI's points system and its rewarding the big budget new boys and not caring about alienating loyal long-term sponsors because they're on a smaller scale is flawed. Because a sponsor like Cofidis or Lampre will stick by the sport through thick and thin, as they've already shown. A doping scandal at Sky would have little real impact outside of Anglophone markets. Landis didn't, Contador didn't, and Wiggins wouldn't. The sport may have to run a few crappy routes staying close to where the money is for a few years, but that's already happening in some places for different reasons, like Portugal, and besides the race organisers are going out of their way to produce crappy routes at the moment anyway so what difference would it make? Eurosport would continue to show it 'cause it's cheap, they might cut a few smaller events from their budget, but the Vuelta is riding high at the moment, the Giro has survived worse (and as of yet isn't really tied in with either Sky or Armstrong's legacy) and the Tour is big enough to survive anything.

Cycling might lose all of the momentum of its recent globalisation drive, but it will still have an audience in its traditional homes. Would it really be that different to the effect on the calendar of the Ullrich/T-Mobile scandals and Landis/Rasmussen's effect on German cycling? I'm not convinced that it would. The race cancellations and shortenings in Spain have nothing to do with doping and everything to do with the economy, and I don't see that changing any time soon either. If the American races were to go under, Sky would have nothing to do with that, they seldom even compete there. It would be all about Armstrong and this hypothetical Sky controversy would be secondary at best.

 

[Grandillusion]

LS:

Great post but I'm still not convinced!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Not for a person, for the reputation of the sport. It's so high profile now worldwide (relatively) because of Armstrong's rise and fall that what would just be another (yawn) cycling doping scandal would have far greater resonance than usually has been the case. IMO.

You mean if Brad gets done people might think, wow cyclings a doping sport?

How many times have you heard over the last year (or even week), everyone was doing it etc The UCI cant even assign LAs titles to anyone.
As for the Lance fans, they wore yellow bracelets, cycling fans ride bikes.

I'm aware the hardcore fans don't really care (I've pointed that out myself enough), but any chance of the sport being taken seriously would be lost for a very long time. And sponsors would be out of there pronto. Just my opinion, and it's all hypothetical anyway I know.

Thats simply wrong, the hardcore fans of the sport do care.
'We' know that its a great sport and doesn't rely on PEDs. 'We' are the ones that get left to pick up the pieces yet again. But because we are fans of the sport we stay.

 

[Grandillusion]

You mean if Brad gets done people might think, wow cyclings a doping sport?

How many times have you heard over the last year (or even week), everyone was doing it etc The UCI cant even assign LAs titles to anyone.
As for the Lance fans, they wore yellow bracelets, cycling fans ride bikes.

Thats simply wrong, the hardcore fans of the sport do care.
'We' know that its a great sport and doesn't rely on PEDs. 'We' are the ones that get left to pick up the pieces yet again. But because we are fans of the sport we stay.

Most casual fans, in their millions, believed in the Armstrong story. Cycling was (relatively) hugely high profile because of him. The story of his duplicity and cheating may not be a surprise to the clinic, but it's a massive surprise to those people.
All I'm saying is, after all that, if the 2012 TDF winner was now shown to be a doping hypocritical cheat too, that would resonate much more than if the Armstrong thing had never happened. And I think you're all underestimating just how damaging it would be.

I think he's probably clean anyway by the way, but just interesting to hypothesise.

You're wrong to think most of the hardcore fans care about doping. You might care, but plenty don't. Pretty amazing really, very weird.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Most casual fans, in their millions, believed in the Armstrong story. Cycling was (relatively) hugely high profile because of him. The story of his duplicity and cheating may not be a surprise to the clinic, but it's a massive surprise to those people.
All I'm saying is, after all that, if the 2012 TDF winner was now shown to be a doping hypocritical cheat too, that would resonate much more than if the Armstrong thing had never happened. And I think you're all underestimating just how damaging it would be.

I think he's probably clean anyway by the way, but just interesting to hypothesise.

You're wrong to think most of the hardcore fans care about doping. You might care, but plenty don't. Pretty amazing really, very weird.

Casual fans are exactly that, casual.

The hardcore fans of the sport do care about doping and how it tarnishes our sport. We are the ones who have to try and get local sponsorship, encourage kids to participate, ask the cops for assistance. All that is more difficult because of the sports reputation.

Don't confuse hardcore fans of certain riders as hardcore fans of the sport.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

LS:

Great post but I'm still not convinced!

Did Athletics die out after Ben Johnson's positive? There's been drug issues in athletics for years before and since.

Wiggins is a big star now, but he's still a much bigger star in Britain than anywhere else. And our hypothetical Sky story is kind of predicated on it happening NOW, when the Armstrong backlash is in full effect. A few months down the line, that will have died down and though the sport will be up the creek in the UK and maybe the US, knee-jerk reactions will not be as extreme.

The sport is not 'safe', so to say, but that's more because the UCI has staked a lot on globalisation into markets that are not ingrained cycling cultures and are therefore more vulnerable to backlash like that. FDJ, Cofidis, Euskaltel, Lotto and Lampre have weathered a lot of pretty heavy storms in their long time in the sport. Rabobank may have got the hell out of Dodge, but they probably knew something was going to go on into their old team that led them to choosing the right time to exit. If Cofidis can escape multiple soigneurs and riders getting arrested with doping products, and team members publicly calling every team member bar 2 dopers, right in the middle of the Armstrong era, and then have the whole team withdraw from the 2007 Tour - their home race lest we forget - in the wake of positive tests, and still be in the sport 6 years later, why the hell would some guy who rode for them years ago testing positive while riding for a completely different team make them go, "you know what, this cycling is a bad game. All that drugs. Let's get out of it"?

Also, I hate to break it to you, but cycling's still not that big a sport. Usain Bolt testing positive would have more of an effect on athletics than Bradley Wiggins testing positive would have on cycling, and athletics can survive Bolt.

 

[thehog]

I have to say if the forum is evidence of anything there appears to be an orchestrated attack on anyone saying anything about Sky which might deem them as dopers.

I’m concerned about Sky for 2013. 2012 was an amazing year with even more amazing results. How will they back it up?

Can’t have Froome going right angles up hills again or getting outpaced by a 12 year old boy named Simon Gerrans.

I’ll be keeping a close eye on Sky. If I see doped performances I will call them out.

The season needs to start. This thread gone bannanas. Sky fans have lost the plot.

 

[Grandillusion]

Did Athletics die out after Ben Johnson's positive? There's been drug issues in athletics for years before and since.

Wiggins is a big star now, but he's still a much bigger star in Britain than anywhere else. And our hypothetical Sky story is kind of predicated on it happening NOW, when the Armstrong backlash is in full effect. A few months down the line, that will have died down and though the sport will be up the creek in the UK and maybe the US, knee-jerk reactions will not be as extreme.

The sport is not 'safe', so to say, but that's more because the UCI has staked a lot on globalisation into markets that are not ingrained cycling cultures and are therefore more vulnerable to backlash like that. FDJ, Cofidis, Euskaltel, Lotto and Lampre have weathered a lot of pretty heavy storms in their long time in the sport. Rabobank may have got the hell out of Dodge, but they probably knew something was going to go on into their old team that led them to choosing the right time to exit. If Cofidis can escape multiple soigneurs and riders getting arrested with doping products, and team members publicly calling every team member bar 2 dopers, right in the middle of the Armstrong era, and then have the whole team withdraw from the 2007 Tour - their home race lest we forget - in the wake of positive tests, and still be in the sport 6 years later, why the hell would some guy who rode for them years ago testing positive while riding for a completely different team make them go, "you know what, this cycling is a bad game. All that drugs. Let's get out of it"?

Also, I hate to break it to you, but cycling's still not that big a sport. Usain Bolt testing positive would have more of an effect on athletics than Bradley Wiggins testing positive would have on cycling, and athletics can survive Bolt.

Cofidis was years ago, before the Armstrong revelations revealed cycling to the greater public for what it is. Every cycling doping scandal prior to this was chickenfeed relatively. And Wiggins isn't "some guy" - he's the 2012 TDF winner. I just happen to think you're wrong about how seismic another TDF winner being shown to be a cheat would be. All depending of course on it coming out now as you say.

 

[Catwhoorg]

If BC/Sky is shown to be doping, the lottery funding WILL go away.

That is literally tens of millions of pounds of funding that would go elsewhere.
No ifs and or buts, it will just go to other sports.

The risk/benefit is heavily skewed on the risk side. There is no separation between road and track in the mind of those providing the funding.

(especially as Sky happens to sponsor the track team as well)

 

[thehog]

If BC/Sky is shown to be doping, the lottery funding WILL go away.

That is literally tens of millions of pounds of funding that would go elsewhere.
No ifs and or buts, it will just go to other sports.

The risk/benefit is heavily skewed on the risk side. There is no separation between road and track in the mind of those providing the funding.

(especially as Sky happens to sponsor the track team as well)

If that's the case I'm going to stop buying lottery tickets.

 

[peterst6906]

If BC/Sky is shown to be doping, the lottery funding WILL go away.

That is literally tens of millions of pounds of funding that would go elsewhere.
No ifs and or buts, it will just go to other sports.

The risk/benefit is heavily skewed on the risk side. There is no separation between road and track in the mind of those providing the funding.

(especially as Sky happens to sponsor the track team as well)

If the riders don't think they will be caught, then the perceived risk is relatively low.

 

[mastersracer]

The season needs to start. This thread gone bannanas. Sky fans have lost the plot.

Season already started. Thomas showing excellent progress in his transition from pursuit to GC contender. Sir Brad will win the Giro and Froome the Tour. The most pressing question is whether a South African can be knighted - Hog, can you help me on that one?

 

[thehog]

Season already started. Thomas showing excellent progress in his transition from pursuit to GC contender. Sir Brad will win the Giro and Froome the Tour. The most pressing question is whether a South African can be knighted - Hog, can you help me on that one?

Can't wait! and you'll be telling us that Thomas Dekker is a liar and that smoking is good for our health.

Leinders will be brought back to Sky on a full time basis and all will be fine.

One problem...

Ummmm but Froome is Kenyan not South African. Sorry. You're making things up.... again.

 

[Joachim]

Can't wait! and you'll be telling us that Thomas Dekker is a liar and that smoking is good for our health.

Leinders will be brought back to Sky on a full time basis and all will be fine.

Ummmm but Froome is Kenyan not South African. Sorry. You're making things up.... again.

Sounds like personal attack to me, hog. Give it a rest. This thread has cooled down almost to the point of civility and pleasant discussion. Your posts seem intended to just provoke.

 

[coinneach]

Isle of Man isn't

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Isle_of_man_passport.jpg#metadata

I think the Isle of Man is part of the British Isles, but not Great Britain.
(So, come to think of it, how did that wee Manxman come to ride for team GB?)

 

[Joachim]

It's complicated

It's a Crown dependency, not part of Uk. Part of British Isles, but that is a geographical definition and not a political/legal one. Manxmen have British nationality.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Hilarious

..I’m concerned about Sky for 2013. 2012 was an amazing year with even more amazing results. How will they back it up?

Can’t have Froome going right angles up hills again or getting outpaced by a 12 year old boy named Simon Gerrans..[/QUOTE]

Hilarious.....or beckoning Bradley to 'hurry up,hurry up we,re late for the school bus'