Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Parrot23]

Hence the reason why many of the world's best long TT'ists also perform exceptionally well in short prologues and why numerous world class IP'ers whom have turned their hand to road have performed exceptionally well in prologues and/or long TTs.

+1 Good point, Krebs.

I've wondered about that for a very long time. It's a startling fact, which should be patently obvious to anyone you follows the sport in even the most cursory way. There must be, and is, a physiological basis, as you explain.

 

[Krebs cycle]

In fact the absolute contribution of anaerobic metabolism can be higher in total work terms for a longer ride since one can deplete AWC, recharge it by riding under threshold levels, and use it again. It wouldn't typically be very good pacing method in a flat TT, but it can certainly happen.

I enjoy your posts Alex. You really know your stuff!

There is a good article that shows that maximal anaerobic capacity (as estimated by MAOD) is dependent on event specificity. So in fact, even the idea that maximal anaerobic capacity is "fixed" is gradually changing towards one in which it is recognized that it is variable depending on a variety of conditions (eg: effect training program).

Int J Sports Med. 1995 Nov;16(8):534-40.
Influence of test duration and event specificity on maximal accumulated oxygen deficit of high performance track cyclists.
Craig NP, Norton KI, Conyers RA, Woolford SM, Bourdon PC, Stanef T, Walsh CB.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8776208

 

[Dr. Maserati]

<snipped to point>
here is a simple proven fact for you one last time....

Long TTs and short TTs and the IP are all events in which the duration dictates that the aerobic energy system dominates the total energetic contribution. If you are good at one, chances are you will be good at the others. Hence the reason why many of the world's best long TT'ists also perform exceptionally well in short prologues and why numerous world class IP'ers whom have turned their hand to road have performed exceptionally well in prologues and/or long TTs.

Ok.
There is a rather simple problem here. The latest flurry about data etc started on a strawman, that Wiggins is viewed as some sort of mule that has turned in to a race horse.

The bit I snipped to I have no problem with. Wiggins is and always was a talented TT'er. But 'we' are not on about winning a TT or even a hilly stage in a GT. We are discussing that he won a 3 week GT.

 

[D-Queued]

Apparently Lance didn't care either... then came the tears.

Good point, but plural? Not even sure you can say that in the singular.

Maybe that he almost came close to shedding one tear. Almost. Close.

It was obviously a tough one for him. Maybe he could have called a friend, or asked the audience.

Dave.

 

[Ferminal]

Good point, but plural? Not even sure you can say that in the singular.

Maybe that he almost came close to shedding one tear. Almost. Close.

It was obviously a tough one for him. Maybe he could have called a friend, or asked the audience.

Dave.

He tried, it's the effort that counts.

 

[Parrot23]

If you can't see that the last few pages were about the concept of CP and views of some noted exercise physiologists on it, and whether the concept is valid or not, it's surprising is all I can say.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

+1 Good point, Krebs.

I've wondered about that for a very long time. It's a startling fact, which should be patently obvious to anyone you follows the sport in even the most cursory way. There must be, and is, a physiological basis, as you explain.

Great username.

Perhaps you can explain why the world champ in 4km IP can't do squat against pro road riders in a 4.1km TT?

 

[Krebs cycle]

Ok.
There is a rather simple problem here. The latest flurry about data etc started on a strawman, that Wiggins is viewed as some sort of mule that has turned in to a race horse.

The bit I snipped to I have no problem with. Wiggins is and always was a talented TT'er. But 'we' are not on about winning a TT or even a hilly stage in a GT. We are discussing that he won a 3 week GT.

The strawman argument is this: "Wiggins is doping because no other pursuiter ever won a GT".

But you know very well that nobody ever won a GT without being a world class TTer, and therefore you know that in order to win a GT you need two very important characteristics, 1. you need to be able to TT and 2. you need to be able to climb. Wiggins always had one of those two vital ingredients, which puts him well ahead of the vast majority of GT contenders. Then with respect to GTs, there is a 3rd, more esoteric and much harder to define characteristic which is recovery. But I think any such discussion about ability to recover and whether or not Wiggins (or anyone else for that matter) has that ability, is a complete waste of time because A, it isn't something that can be objectively measured, and B it is something that has been hugely distorted over the years due to the use of PEDs.

And just so you don't accuse me of "defending" Sky, this same line of reasoning would apply to any other team in any other thread. It's not about Wiggins or Team Sky, it is about recognizing that many of the arguments used around here as de facto proof of doping, are either strawman arguments or they are just plain wrong.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The strawman argument is this: "Wiggins is doping because no other pursuiter ever won a GT".

Dial it down.
Dial it down a lot.
Have I ever said the above - no.

I asked a genuine question if you cannot answer without making stuff up about what I asked then dont waste my time.

But you know very well that nobody ever won a GT without being a world class TTer, and therefore you know that in order to win a GT you need two very important characteristics, 1. you need to be able to TT and 2. you need to be able to climb. Wiggins always had one of those two vital ingredients, which puts him well ahead of the vast majority of GT contenders. Then with respect to GTs, there is a 3rd, more esoteric and much harder to define characteristic which is recovery. But I think any such discussion about ability to recover and whether or not Wiggins (or anyone else for that matter) has that ability, is a complete waste of time because A, it isn't something that can be objectively measured, and B it is something that has been hugely distorted over the years due to the use of PEDs.

And just so you don't accuse me of "defending" Sky, this same line of reasoning would apply to any other team in any other thread. It's not about Wiggins or Team Sky, it is about recognizing that many of the arguments used around here as de facto proof of doping, are either strawman arguments or they are just plain wrong.

The highlighted is my point.
No need to make up anything else about what I am saying or asking.

 

[D-Queued]

The strawman argument is this: "Wiggins is doping because no other pursuiter ever won a GT".

But you know very well that nobody ever won a GT without being a world class TTer, and therefore you know that in order to win a GT you need two very important characteristics, 1. you need to be able to TT and 2. you need to be able to climb. Wiggins always had one of those two vital ingredients, which puts him well ahead of the vast majority of GT contenders. Then with respect to GTs, there is a 3rd, more esoteric and much harder to define characteristic which is recovery. But I think any such discussion about ability to recover and whether or not Wiggins (or anyone else for that matter) has that ability, is a complete waste of time because A, it isn't something that can be objectively measured, and B it is something that has been hugely distorted over the years due to the use of PEDs.

And just so you don't accuse me of "defending" Sky, this same line of reasoning would apply to any other team in any other thread. It's not about Wiggins or Team Sky, it is about recognizing that many of the arguments used around here as de facto proof of doping, are either strawman arguments or they are just plain wrong.

Pardon?

Ok, ok, Pereiro did win a 15k TTT (!) once. And, Sastre won a TTT that was twice as long.

The chicken almost won the tour, even though he couldn't complete a TT without crashing. At least three times. I think I could have walked the course faster. Thank goodness for whereabouts reporting.

Dave.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Great username.

Perhaps you can explain why the world champ in 4km IP can't do squat against pro road riders in a 4.1km TT?

@doc maserati: see what I mean here? Right on cue, the same tired old rubbish gets wheeled out. Wiggins might be doping, but this argument is simply incorrect. Anyone can go look up Wiggins' palmares in both short and long TTs and see that dear wiggo is just plain wrong

 

[Krebs cycle]

Pardon?

Ok, ok, Pereiro did win a 15k TTT (!) once. And, Sastre won a TTT that was twice as long.

The chicken almost won the tour, even though he couldn't complete a TT without crashing. At least three times. I think I could have walked the course faster. Thank goodness for whereabouts reporting.

Dave.

Whoa genius examlel there with Pereiro coz like that year wasn't a complete fluke.

try harder next time

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Nervous much?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVROhTHxWP8&feature=player_detailpage#t=298s

 

[hrotha]

Whoa genius examlel there with Pereiro coz like that year wasn't a complete fluke.

try harder next time.

He did try harder: Sastre.
And I would add: Hesjedal, Cobo, Scarponi, Nibali, Andy Schleck, Basso, I won't go on but that's just for the last 3 seasons.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

@doc maserati: see what I mean here? Right on cue, the same tired old rubbish gets wheeled out. Wiggins might be doping, but this argument is simply incorrect. Anyone can go look up Wiggins' palmares in both short and long TTs and see that dear wiggo is just plain wrong.

Actually, no - I do not.

You seriously think I have anything in common with DW?
It is that sort of 'with us or against us' attitude you have that actually calls in to question your objectivity on any Sky matter, not the data you present.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It's a sure sign you've met your intellectual equal when they resort to personal attacks.

 

[BroDeal]

But you know very well that nobody ever won a GT without being a world class TTer...

More dodgy logic from krebs cycle. Riders with subpar ITTs frequently win the Giro and the Vuelta.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I enjoy your posts Alex. You really know your stuff!

There is a good article that shows that maximal anaerobic capacity (as estimated by MAOD) is dependent on event specificity. So in fact, even the idea that maximal anaerobic capacity is "fixed" is gradually changing towards one in which it is recognized that it is variable depending on a variety of conditions (eg: effect training program).

Int J Sports Med. 1995 Nov;16(8):534-40.
Influence of test duration and event specificity on maximal accumulated oxygen deficit of high performance track cyclists.
Craig NP, Norton KI, Conyers RA, Woolford SM, Bourdon PC, Stanef T, Walsh CB.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8776208

Cool. I had a good teacher but never went to class.

Have you seen these items on my blog?:

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2011/03/anaerobic-stuff-mr-peabodys-wabac.html

In there I plot an estimate of MAOD from a 4km individual pursuit, a 2km team pursuit, a 1km track TT and the opening minutes (including attack) in a point race. Even in the kilo you can see I was able to dump the majority of my AWC in a short time.

There's also a link to this earlier item examining the MAOD of riders in a team pursuit:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2007/02/darth-vader-rides-teams-pursuit.html

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Great username.

Perhaps you can explain why the world champ in 4km IP can't do squat against pro road riders in a 4.1km TT?

? Hepburn?
Pretty new to the pro road race scene joining OGE last year.

Boardman road several of the fastest TdF prologues in history and world pursuit record. Brad McGee won a TdF prologue and Olympic silver in pursuit (gold went to Wiggins). David Millar won British pursuit champs and of course prologues. Taylor Phinney does well in both.

There are however some differences in prologues, as some courses involve additional technical components, and little more neuromuscular demand and variable terrain and environmental conditions when compared to a track pursuit, and in such circumstances you will find that often roadie lead out men and some sprinters and team pursuit riders often do pretty well in such events (e.g. O'Grady, Hushovd, Durbridge style of rider).

Many roadies just don't / didn't do track so who knows what they may have been capable of in the velodrome. Track is barely a professional sport for those not supported by national sports bodies.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

? Hepburn?
Pretty new to the pro road race scene joining OGE last year.

No, Bradley Wiggins, 2006 Dauphine prologue. Out and back dead flat course.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

But you know very well that nobody ever won a GT without being a world class TTer, and therefore you know that in order to win a GT you need two very important characteristics, 1. you need to be able to TT and 2. you need to be able to climb.

I think we can put that to rest.

Wiggins always had one of those two vital ingredients, which puts him well ahead of the vast majority of GT contenders.

Of course, "world class TTer" depends on your definition of "world class".

For some, it means, "competing in the same race as the people who win world championship TTs or protour TTs".

To me, and some others, it means, "winning multiple world championship TTs or winning protour TTs, regularly".

Fabian Cancellara is a prime example of the latter.

Bradley Wiggins is not. "Always been a world-class TTer" appears to mean, "after 2009" when it comes to Wiggins.

Keep in mind: one point that sticks in most (WTF Wiggins!?) posters' minds is the fact that between the end of 2008 and the start of the 2009 road season, gold medal Olympian Wiggins lost ~10% body weight, and continued to lose another 7% by 2011. All the while becoming a true Fabian Cancellara level TTer.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Wow, this really has sunken to a new level of ridiculousness. Every one of you (except dr Maserati) completely ignored the crux of my post which was that TWO important characteristics are required to be successful in GTs. In reality of course what this means is some combination of both. but instead you're now trying to tell us that you don't need to be good at ITTs to be successful in GTs. Gee wouldn't that imply that if you were good at TTs (like Wiggins and many others are/have been) then you would have an advantage over those whom are not?

Tops list hrotha, you just proved my point..... every single one of those cyclists LOST a GT because they weren't good enough at time trialing.


sigh. I'll leave you guys in peace once again to endlessly argue about stuff you've got idea about. A bit like a couple of bus drivers arguing about which knee reconstruction surgery technique is the best.

 

[Krebs cycle]

No, Bradley Wiggins, 2006 Dauphine prologue. Out and back dead flat course.

Same Wiggins. 1st 2007 Dauphine prologue.

keep cherry picking results but you don't fool anyone who has actually checked Wiggins' palmares in a variety of short and long TTs both pre and post 2009.


And once again, you are using a strawman argument. Wiggins coming last in the 2006 Dauphine prologue is not an argument which invalidates the critical power concept of human bioenergetics. Keep trying as long as you like, but you'll never invalidate this model no matter how much complete and utter sh!te you post on this forum.

 

[thehog]

Same Wiggins. 1st 2007 Dauphine prologue.

keep cherry picking results but you don't fool anyone who has actually checked Wiggins' palmares in a variety of short and long TTs both pre and post 2009.


And once again, you are using a strawman argument. Wiggins coming last in the 2006 Dauphine prologue is not an argument which invalidates the critical power concept of human bioenergetics. Keep trying as long as you like, but you'll never invalidate this model no matter how much complete and utter sh!te you post on this forum.

He finished 3rd in the under 14 swimming event. The transformation since that time has been massive.

 

[Ferminal]

krebs - is there a trade off between being good pursuiter/prologuer and a good long TT'er? i.e. a world champ ITT might struggle over 4km due to the anaerobic contribution to the shorter event? I guess what I'm trying to say, can you deduce anaerobic capacity from a long ITT, and the direction of the effect?