Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[heart_attack_man]

Interesting thread I found on an unrelated forum:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/endurance-training/aicar-log-endurance-runner-944233.html

Basically, if a semi-elite athlete is using Aicar in June 2012, I would have a guess and say that a Leinders-inspired Sky would have had access to it quite a long time before then.

I see also in the thread mention of GW.

But of course, none of these things would be used in cycling...

 

[mastersracer]

Interesting thread I found on an unrelated forum:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/endurance-training/aicar-log-endurance-runner-944233.html

Basically, if a semi-elite athlete is using Aicar in June 2012, I would have a guess and say that a Leinders-inspired Sky would have had access to it quite a long time before then.

I see also in the thread mention of GW.

But of course, none of these things would be used in cycling...

There's no evidence that AICAR would increase performance among elite athletes. I've already indicated the methodology of the original experiments in another thread here and why there is a decent likelihood that it wouldn't benefit elite athletes.

I also cited a study indicating GW targets glycolytic muscle fibers and may actually chronically decrease oxidative aerobic capacity. It is also linked to tumor growth via angiogenesis. There's also a validated detection test for these drugs.

The people taking these products (like the forum you linked to) are incredibly reckless with their health - you would have to be exceedingly stupid and desperate to take these products - note the person also mentions he takes Jack 3D, a pre-workout product containing dimethylamylamine that has recently been linked to deaths in the US.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

There's no evidence that AICAR would increase performance among elite athletes. I've already indicated the methodology of the original experiments in another thread here and why there is a decent likelihood that it wouldn't benefit elite athletes.

I also cited a study indicating GW targets glycolytic muscle fibers and may actually chronically decrease oxidative aerobic capacity. It is also linked to tumor growth via angiogenesis. There's also a validated detection test for these drugs.

The people taking these products (like the forum you linked to) are incredibly reckless with their health - you would have to be exceedingly stupid and desperate to take these products - note the person also mentions he takes Jack 3D, a pre-workout product containing dimethylamylamine that has recently been linked to deaths in the US.

So, you as an expert, would say microdosing AICAR would be undetectable?

 

[mastersracer]

So, you as an expert, would say microdosing AICAR would be undetectable?

honestly, I think all this talk of AICAR etc. reflects a lack of imagination among Sky conspiracy theorists. If they are the evil geniuses you think they are, why not suppose they are up to something more like gene electrotransfer with erythropoietin. Putzing around with AICAR is so old school...

 

[Caruut]

Can't help but deflect.

 

[DirtyWorks]

honestly, I think all this talk of AICAR etc. reflects a lack of imagination among Sky conspiracy theorists. If they are the evil geniuses you think they are, why not suppose they are up to something more like gene electrotransfer with erythropoietin. Putzing around with AICAR is so old school...

Because the AICAR+HGwhatever combo will spike their Watts/Kilo and there appears to be no functional test. I'm assuming the UCI wakes up from a slumber and decides to issue a positive.

The AICAR+HGwhatever combo simply explains how it is riders are able to lose so much weight from already being skinny and retain power.

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish by shouting this down, but even if doping has moved on from AICAR, the HGwhatevers are the future of doping as they are a main topic of discussion in the body building forums. They aren't a do-it-all drug class, but they do things that some steroids (ex. clenbuterol) used to do without having to do on-off cycles.

 

[The Hitch]

So, you as an expert, would say microdosing AICAR would be undetectable?

Expert?

Lololololol

 

[mastersracer]

Expert?

Lololololol

well, I was a postdoc at the Salk (same place Ron Evans did the AICAR research), but never claimed expertise in this area.

Perhaps you could point us to a single study indicating any performance benefit of AICAR etc for elite athletes.

The entire premise of 'microdosing' AICAR is also nonsense.

 

[DirtyWorks]

1) any substance/program designed to increase red blood cell/hemoglobin (either directly, or indirectly, by increasing endogenous EPO), runs afoul of the passport.

I read your reply as assuming that there is a legitimate, functioning bio-passport process. But, we know with Armstrong he had clearly positive samples that were simply never processed beyond the test itself.

I have plenty of respect for your expertise in many areas where I have too little. And you know the old saying about a little knowledge.... I think the assumption there is a working bio-passport is wrong.

So again, the bottom line is oxygen intake. This is what has to be increased in order to increase power.

Agreed. I don't have a good answer as to which cocktail the Sky Grand Tour squad uses to develop substantially more power. I do think their samples never get forwarded to experts like Armstrongs 'comeback' , but even then, it's a fair criticism that it doesn't fully explain the Froome/Wiggins transformation and domination.

I started a thread here about a week ago, which apparently was accidentally deleted by one of the mods, suggesting that if there is a team-wide doping program at Sky, it might be detected by a statistical program looking not at individual riders, but at a whole team.

My reading of the WADA documentation suggests the APMU could do exactly that. Based on reading WADA's APMU documentation, they'd need to program the test itself. That's not a trivial task. All the riders samples are in the system though!!!

IMHO, it won't ever happen though. Too many opportunities to create anti-doping controversy.

As always, I read your comments carefully and appreciate the feedback.

 

[mastersracer]

I'm not shouting it down - I'm injecting some reality. You don't even know the name of the drug, but that doesn't seem to stop you from fantastical speculation. A validated test was published in 2009 - it's not some new undetectable super-drug. It is questionable if it would even have benefit, but don't let peer-reviewed research get in your way:


Cresser, Justin, et al. "Oral administration of a PPAR-delta agonist to rodents worsens, not improves, maximal insulin-stimulated glucose transport in skeletal muscle of different fibers." American journal of physiology. Regulatory, integrative and comparative physiology 299.2 (2010):R470-R479.

excerpts:

"This is the first study to examine the effects of chronic in vivo treatment with a PPAR-δ agonist (GW 501516) on insulin-stimulated glucose transport in skeletal muscle of different fiber types."

"Our major finding was that oral administration of the PPAR-δ agonist, GW 501516, significantly reduced maximal insulin-stimulated glucose transport and insulin signaling in skeletal muscle."

"Several studies have implicated PPAR-δ as a regulator of oxidative capacity in skeletal muscle (29, 50). However, the studies reporting this finding have generally used muscles composed primarily of glycolytic fibers (50); information pertaining to oxidative muscle is limited. On the basis of our results, it would appear that glycolytic fibers respond more robustly than oxidative fibers to treatment with GW 501516 in terms of increasing their capacity for oxidative metabolism."

Because the AICAR+HGwhatever combo will spike their Watts/Kilo and there appears to be no functional test. I'm assuming the UCI wakes up from a slumber and decides to issue a positive.

The AICAR+HGwhatever combo simply explains how it is riders are able to lose so much weight from already being skinny and retain power.

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish by shouting this down, but even if doping has moved on from AICAR, the HGwhatevers are the future of doping as they are a main topic of discussion in the body building forums. They aren't a do-it-all drug class, but they do things that some steroids (ex. clenbuterol) used to do without having to do on-off cycles.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

perhaps you could point us to a single study indicating any performance benefit of AICAR etc for elite athletes.

Has there ever been a study on the use of insuline on elite athletes?

And yet the elites used them since the nineties.

Red herring ms.

http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=NV2D550J

hematide/aicar/Tour2009/pills of EPO

But no way this stuff would be used by elite athletes, and, certainly not at team clean.

 

[blackcat]

ok MR.

how about practical applied use. if it is prevalent, aint this defacto evidence.

I concede, it is not scientific ideal, not being able to isolate one variable. but if it is taken up, then that does concede some positive effect no?

and you are placing too high a bar, because there will never be clinical studies on athletes, official/formal ones atleast. because we do know that big farma(sic) has seeded their gear to the jocks. you dont have to be monsanto

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Nice one for MR:
http://www.ergo-log.com/artemisia-iwayomogi-gw501516.html

 

[thehog]

Nice one for MR:
http://www.ergo-log.com/artemisia-iwayomogi-gw501516.html

LOL! Yes because rampant black market drugs generally form part of applied research before hitting the market!

This is too funny.

 

[mastersracer]

LOL! Yes because rampant black market drugs generally form part of applied research before hitting the market!

This is too funny.

you should at least read a link before commenting on it. It concerned an unreguated herb, not a black market drug. I've already commented on the methodological limitations of these sorts of studies in terms of extrapolating them to elite athletes.

 

[D-Queued]

Lefevre throws Leinders under the bus by supporting him

More on Leinders from Lefevre:

The team manager responded: “Yes; But no-one would believe me. When I was a rider myself I went to doctor Eric Rijckaert. He told me: which races do you want to be good at. I'll prepare you for them medically.' But then Rijckaert didn't want to tell me what this preparation was about. So I didn't do it. He explained to me: ‘If I tell riders what I do, they'll do it twice every week. So he was protecting people against themselves, but that's not how that's perceived today. Same for Geert Leinders: it's pathetic how people talk about him today.”

This is very funny.

He thinks he is protecting or supporting him, but actually throws him under the bus.

This is translated as follows:

Lefevre's doping doctor optimized the doping so that they could do well in those events where they wanted to do well.

He wouldn't let his athletes interfere lest they mess things up. One outcome of messing things up is that they could actually hurt themselves.

Leinders is a hero for Lefevre because he wouldn't let the athletes hurt themselves either. And, by direct implication, was also pretty good at helping the cyclists dope properly so they wouldn't hurt themselves.

Dave.

 

[Franklin]

More on Leinders from Lefevre:

The team manager responded: “Yes; But no-one would believe me. When I was a rider myself I went to doctor Eric Rijckaert. He told me: which races do you want to be good at. I'll prepare you for them medically.' But then Rijckaert didn't want to tell me what this preparation was about. So I didn't do it. He explained to me: ‘If I tell riders what I do, they'll do it twice every week. So he was protecting people against themselves, but that's not how that's perceived today. Same for Geert Leinders: it's pathetic how people talk about him today.”

This is very funny.

He thinks he is protecting or supporting him, but actually throws him under the bus.

This is translated as follows:

Lefevre's doping doctor optimized the doping so that they could do well in those events where they wanted to do well.

He wouldn't let his athletes interfere lest they mess things up. One outcome of messing things up is that they could actually hurt themselves.

Leinders is a hero for Lefevre because he wouldn't let the athletes hurt themselves either. And, by direct implication, was also pretty good at helping the cyclists dope properly so they wouldn't hurt themselves.

Dave.

Leinders tested the clinic in Vienna before sending his riders there. Really protective and healthy doctoring

And tghe idiocy of this is that Lefevre knows as this has hit the news. That Lefevre is still defending him shows how rotten to his soul he is. Yeah, Lefevre needs to be tossed out of the sport even faster than Brailsford.

 

[thehog]

you should at least read a link before commenting on it. It concerned an unreguated herb, not a black market drug. I've already commented on the methodological limitations of these sorts of studies in terms of extrapolating them to elite athletes.

The only unregulated herbs being used here is the stuff you’re smokin’ to come with the “data” you do.

It honestly is hilarious.

What Sky needs most of all is acting classes. They need to look more tired. Exhausted. So it looks just a wee bit more real.

But when the Dawg amps up the ITT at 56kg then I’m not sure any amount of method acting will work.

 

[blackcat]

Leinders tested the clinic in Vienna before sending his riders there. Really protective and healthy doctoring

And tghe idiocy of this is that Lefevre knows as this has hit the news. That Lefevre is still defending him shows how rotten to his soul he is. Yeah, Lefevre needs to be tossed out of the sport even faster than Brailsford.

well, atleast Lefevre does not offer an overt lie. he gives you a glimpse.

like Ullrich said, if you can't put 1+1 together, he can't help.

lefevere and brailsford and sky and froome and wiggins and porte are not the problem

your expectations are the problem.

 

[thehog]

More on Leinders from Lefevre:

The team manager responded: “Yes; But no-one would believe me. When I was a rider myself I went to doctor Eric Rijckaert. He told me: which races do you want to be good at. I'll prepare you for them medically.' But then Rijckaert didn't want to tell me what this preparation was about. So I didn't do it. He explained to me: ‘If I tell riders what I do, they'll do it twice every week. So he was protecting people against themselves, but that's not how that's perceived today. Same for Geert Leinders: it's pathetic how people talk about him today.”

This is very funny.

He thinks he is protecting or supporting him, but actually throws him under the bus.

This is translated as follows:

Lefevre's doping doctor optimized the doping so that they could do well in those events where they wanted to do well.

He wouldn't let his athletes interfere lest they mess things up. One outcome of messing things up is that they could actually hurt themselves.

Leinders is a hero for Lefevre because he wouldn't let the athletes hurt themselves either. And, by direct implication, was also pretty good at helping the cyclists dope properly so they wouldn't hurt themselves.

Dave.

He does raise a good point. Riders did have a tendency to double the dose and take one extra thinking they’ll go faster.

You do need a Doctor stopping them for going full ***.

The Dawg needs Leinders to slow him down. He’s going to kill himself before age 35.

 

[blackcat]

Froome will win july and show you nuff nuffs

 

[The Chicken]

He does raise a good point. Riders did have a tendency to double the dose and take one extra thinking they’ll go faster.

You do need a Doctor stopping them for going full ***.

The Dawg needs Leinders to slow him down. He’s going to kill himself before age 35.

How strange - was talking with someone earlier today about Froome and there was concern expressed about him going overboard with the PEDs, doing himself in.

Usually I just have to laugh at him, but now I'm starting to fear for him. Alarm bells are ringing. Super Dog is off his head.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Froome will win july and show you nuff nuffs

Prediction: TdF 2013 Froome/Wiggins go 1-2 with 7+ minutes to third place. I'm not calling third though.

I don't think Froome will leadout the Sky sprint train in yellow like Wiggins in 2012. He'll do something equally out of place for a GC leader though.

The wildcard is Porte though... It might be Froome/Porte and 7+ minutes back to third.

 

[mastersracer]

The only unregulated herbs being used here is the stuff you’re smokin’ to come with the “data” you do.

It honestly is hilarious.

What Sky needs most of all is acting classes. They need to look more tired. Exhausted. So it looks just a wee bit more real.

But when the Dawg amps up the ITT at 56kg then I’m not sure any amount of method acting will work.

your vacuous comments do nothing to change the fact that you comment on links you clearly haven't even taken the time to read.

Fact is, the link was about an Artemisia herb, not a black market drug.

 

[the sceptic]

Prediction: TdF 2013 Froome/Wiggins go 1-2 with 7+ minutes to third place. I'm not calling third though.

I don't think Froome will leadout the Sky sprint train in yellow like Wiggins in 2012. He'll do something equally out of place for a GC leader though.

The wildcard is Porte though... It might be Froome/Porte and 7+ minutes back to third.

If they wanted to they could do 1-2-3 with Dawg, Sir and Porte, and Kiryenka in the top 10 as well, but that might be a bit over the top even for them.