Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Ferminal]

Is that the best performance by a 23 year old ever in a GT mountain stage?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I know you were being sarcastic, but this was too easy to let go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Giro_d'Italia

 

[Granville57]

Another incredibly brilliant, intellectually engaging, and informative post.

Good lord. Whatever you do for a living, I do hope you are well paid. You possess an impressive mind, to say the very least.

 

[Ferminal]

I know you were being sarcastic, but this was too easy to let go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Giro_d'Italia

That's no fun.

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=8404

 

[mastersracer]

Rode with Menchov for much of the climb? He stayed with him for a few minutes when Menchov was in difficulty after the early attacks, then finished the stage 9 minutes behind him. And with the group having been reduced to that small number, Froome was a hanger-on from the break. He was detached from the group shortly after Johan freaking van Summeren.

It was a pretty good day that indicated one day he could be a decent rider, but nothing that suggested "this guy will win a GT". Augustyn - who is younger - attacking and cresting Bonette first drew more attention and deservedly so. Rigoberto Urán in the final week of the 2009 Tour was far more visible.

There's a reason that the Froome apologists always point to that day as the sign that Froome had the GC talent, and it's the same reason the cynics point to the Taaramäe on San Luca: there's practically nothing else to point to. He did next to nothing noteworthy - either good OR bad - until August 2011.

A few weeks after that Alpe show, Robert Gesink, who's a year younger than Froome, finished 6th on Anglirú en route to a Vuelta top 10. After a season where he'd been 4th in Paris-Nice, 12th in País Vasco, 4th in Flèche Wallonne, 4th in the Dauphiné. THAT is showing the potential that says you can be a GT winner. Being in the break of the day and eventually finishing 30th on the stage is a pretty impressive showing for a young competitor like Froome was in 2008, but if that's all it takes to justify somebody carving the field up like he suddenly started doing in August 2011 with no warning whatsoever and after two years of achieving absolutely bupkis, guys like Christophe Riblon and Amaël Moinard would be GT winners by now.

He stayed with Menchov for almost 5 km. A rider's potential obviously requires consideration of developmental context. Comparison's to riders like Geink are unfair - a rider developing in the Dutch junior program is going to develop earlier than someone who was basically a college kid (on a continent with a handful of protour riders) a year before turning pro and riding the Tour. He showed he had climbing and time trial potential. Considering his race schedule leading up to the 2008 Tour and his lack of background, I think it's actually pretty miraculous he even finished.

 

[thehog]

He stayed with Menchov for almost 5 km. A rider's potential obviously requires consideration of developmental context. Comparison's to riders like Geink are unfair - a rider developing in the Dutch junior program is going to develop earlier than someone who was basically a college kid (on a continent with a handful of protour riders) a year before turning pro and riding the Tour. He showed he had climbing and time trial potential. Considering his race schedule leading up to the 2008 Tour and his lack of background, I think it's actually pretty miraculous he even finished.

Talk about conspiracy theories.

You need get into sports gambling.

If there's a horse at 125/1 named Dawg. Pick him.

 

[DirtyWorks]

... He did next to nothing noteworthy - either good OR bad - until August 2011.

Doing next to nothing as a pro then suddenly becoming a podium contender does not fit the profile of an actual Grand Tour contender when you look at athletes prior to Lemond's wins.

It fits the profile of a number of dopers though!

 

[thehog]

Doing next to nothing as a pro then suddenly becoming a podium contender does not fit the profile of an actual Grand Tour contender when you look at athletes prior to Lemond's wins.

It fits the profile of a number of dopers though!

If only the countless anonymous Ag2R riders who hung onto Menchov for one stage would know that they too could become a GT contender!

 

[DirtyWorks]

If only the countless anonymous Ag2R riders who hung onto Menchov for one stage would know that they too could become a GT contender!

Sigh.... I guess they just didn't want to go after those marginal gains like Sky... It's their own fault really.

 

[sartoris]

This is utter nonsense and a pure distortion. Who was 7th over the Croix de Fer on the Queen stage (17) of the 2008 Tour de France - in a group that was reduced to 14 riders, including the likes of Frank Schleck, Andy Schleck, Carlos Sastre, Cadel Evans, Christian Vande Velde, Alejandro Valverde, Bernhard Kohl, Denis Menchov, Pieter Weening, David Moncoutie, Samuel Sanchez, and Sandy Casar?

Who was 3rd among young riders on that stage - ahead of Nibali and Hesjedal?

Who rode with Menchov for much of that climb, just dangling off the back of the yellow jersey group after a blistering attack at the base of the climb that spintered the peloton? Hint: 19:49 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4feLtHt60w

And who was 16th in the final time trial of that Tour - 2nd best young rider of that stage? For a first year pro on a small team with almost no international experience, that's plenty of sign of talent and potential. FWIW, the Giro clip you all like to show is always presented without its context - it was the result of a failed attack after a 160 km break in a small group. Big deal.

No matter how hard you try,dude.

 

[mastersracer]

Cherry pick a few literature to reinforce your false idea is your problem. I can cite way many more literature to show AICAR and GW cocktail works like wonder drug.

then cite them. Show one that indicates ANY extrapolation to elite athletes; cite some that studies chronic effects beyond a 4 week experimental protocol; cite some that provides a mechanistic explanation for why there would be an additive effect in highly trained subjects along the same pathways that are targeted by exercise - e.g., AMPK. I know NAMPT isn't - but am waiting. There's a reason they are called exercise mimetics...

Cite some that undermines Herman Ram's statement, Herman Ram adds. “We do think AICAR is a bit of a hype. It’s far too expensive and there are other things on the market that do the same, and better."

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Is this like a Strava segment?

I am sure I could get the KOM if I focused on it.

Dave.

I believe in you, Dave.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That's no fun.

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=8404

I realise it's probably a given, but having the flags alongside a rider's name, and seeing all the Spanish flags percolating to the top, with the other nations decidedly towards the bottom, is very interesting.

 

[Parrulo]

This is utter nonsense and a pure distortion. Who was 7th over the Croix de Fer on the Queen stage (17) of the 2008 Tour de France - in a group that was reduced to 14 riders, including the likes of Frank Schleck, Andy Schleck, Carlos Sastre, Cadel Evans, Christian Vande Velde, Alejandro Valverde, Bernhard Kohl, Denis Menchov, Pieter Weening, David Moncoutie, Samuel Sanchez, and Sandy Casar?

Who was 3rd among young riders on that stage - ahead of Nibali and Hesjedal?

Who rode with Menchov for much of that climb, just dangling off the back of the yellow jersey group after a blistering attack at the base of the climb that spintered the peloton? Hint: 19:49 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4feLtHt60w

And who was 16th in the final time trial of that Tour - 2nd best young rider of that stage? For a first year pro on a small team with almost no international experience, that's plenty of sign of talent and potential. FWIW, the Giro clip you all like to show is always presented without its context - it was the result of a failed attack after a 160 km break in a small group. Big deal.

same argument del1962 used a few weeks ago, still equally foolish. nibali did the giro-tour double that year and top 20'd both races. obviously he was blowing up impressively over the last couple of stages but up until that point he was giving andy, who had focused only on the tour, a run for his money for the white jersey. oh and he still finished like 2 hours ahead of froome on GC by the end of that tour.

 

[badboygolf16v]

Considering his race schedule leading up to the 2008 Tour and his lack of background, I think it's actually pretty miraculous he even finished.

The miraculous performances continue.

 

[Ferminal]

I realise it's probably a given, but having the flags alongside a rider's name, and seeing all the Spanish flags percolating to the top, with the other nations decidedly towards the bottom, is very interesting.

That is how the Vuelta was at the time. And not all of it was that nobody else cared, some pretty amazing performances from Heras, Aitor Gonzalez, Perez. I guess around the time Menchov won it for real more foreigners were starting to have an impact.

I guess what we thought was the end of the systematic doping era means it's now just a few absolute stars scoring all the points for them. Fewer average cyclists riding at the front. The lack of young talent emerging is a bit worrying though.

 

[will10]

This isn't the first time we've seen undertones from Cadel interviews about Sky, and judging from this I doubt it'll be the last.

"There is some short-term memory from the media, I had a virus last year and I still was seventh in the Tour de France," the 36-year-old told the Reuters news agency.

"Of course on paper, Tejay was better than me but people seem to forget what I have done on the Tour de France in the six years preceding 2012."

"If I'm not sick and everything goes according to plan, yes (I will be team leader). Like I said there seems to be a short-term memory thing in the media, I did actually win the Tour once before. That does sort of prove that I can do it."

Evans has opted for a controlled comeback after his virus problem and is convinced it is the best way to build-up for the Tour de France.

"I had a virus last year and it changes everything at this point compared to 2011," he said. "I haven't won any races yet (this year) so in that regard I'm behind but it's a slow and steady progress towards the Tour."

"They (Team Sky) seem to be very, very well prepared for the early part of the season with two whole teams of strong climbers and in the mountains at least they can dictate their own terms. Normally, putting guys at such a high level in the early season means you're going to pay for it later in the year, that would be the normal case - time will tell in that regard."

"For now they are going to be hard to beat, they're the guys to beat."



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/evans-confident-about-leading-bmc-at-the-tour-de-france

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

This is utter nonsense and a pure distortion. Who was 7th over the Croix de Fer on the Queen stage (17) of the 2008 Tour de France - in a group that was reduced to 14 riders, including the likes of Frank Schleck, Andy Schleck, Carlos Sastre, Cadel Evans, Christian Vande Velde, Alejandro Valverde, Bernhard Kohl, Denis Menchov, Pieter Weening, David Moncoutie, Samuel Sanchez, and Sandy Casar?

Who was 3rd among young riders on that stage - ahead of Nibali and Hesjedal?

Who rode with Menchov for much of that climb, just dangling off the back of the yellow jersey group after a blistering attack at the base of the climb that spintered the peloton? Hint: 19:49 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4feLtHt60w

And who was 16th in the final time trial of that Tour - 2nd best young rider of that stage? For a first year pro on a small team with almost no international experience, that's plenty of sign of talent and potential. FWIW, the Giro clip you all like to show is always presented without its context - it was the result of a failed attack after a 160 km break in a small group. Big deal.

I do hope you get payed for this stuff.

In your retorics Johan van Summeren could be a GT contender.

But to be fair to you, did you take the trouble to look at the Dawgz previous results in that Tour? I did it for you, dont need to thank me.

Stage 16:

138 Christopher Froome (Ken) Barloworld 31.56

Stage 15:

127 Christopher Froome (Ken) Barloworld 25.33

Well well, could it not just be the Dawg was saving fuel for a few days in the grupetto to spike one day? And blew up?

But, then I stumbled onto this nice kind of info:

Stage 14:

Pre - race:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/?id=live/tour0814

13:24 CEST
Gregor Brown spoke to two from the Barloworld team at the start, namely manager Claudio Corti and Robert Hunter.

"I don't think that it will arrive in a sprint today," said Corti. "We will try for an escape with Robert Hunter and with Giampaolo Cheula – we have only four riders! The other two riders – John-Lee Augustyn and Chris Froome – we are saving for the mountains tomorrow. Even if Augustyn is not able to win, he has the chance of making a good placing and gain experience. Those two riders will keep relaxed and out of the wind today."

So, masterracer, the Dawg was fully 'rested' to peak in the mountains, just losing 57 minutes in the next two stages?

Those guys are the real deal man. Climbing alongside of Wim Vansevant et all!

He stayed with Menchov for almost 5 km.

So he only lost a minute per kilometre after he had to let go of Menchov? How nice.

EDIT:
And to be extra nice to you MR, here are the poweroutputs for Sastre, you can do the math on the Frommedawg yourself and see the marginal gain.

Stage 15, Prato Nevoso (last 8.5 km, 7.88 %, 670 m)

Carlos Sastre (ESP / CSC) | 24:10, 21.10 Kph, VAM 1663 m/h, 5.97 W/kg

Stage 17, Alpe d'Huez (13.8 km, 8.10 %, 1119 m)

Carlos Sastre (ESP / CSC) | 39:32, 20.94 Kph, VAM 1698 m/h, 6.04 W/kg

 

[blackcat]

modern day Liberty Seguros / ONCE.

ONCE iteration really.

dont know how well this will turn out. If I was Hoy and the track gold medallists, I would tell them to not be so reckless in hogging results. cos this could spread like wildfire l'affaire Armstrong USADA mkII.

cos unless Rupert and Sky buy FRance 1, France 2, France 3, El Pais, Der Spiegel, there will be many places to break this in the coming years.

Everyone is wanna (grammar/sic) get theirs.

dont think Kennaugh and G are not lining up behind Wiggo, and saying to Sir Brailsford, please Sir, can I have some more (too).

only so many cycling knighthoods that Queen Elizabeth can dole out until she croaks.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Rats involved in experiments with AICAR and GW---.
Media owned pro cycling teams.

There's echoes of 1984 in all this.

 

[The Hitch]

This is utter nonsense and a pure distortion. Who was 7th over the Croix de Fer on the Queen stage (17) of the 2008 Tour de France - in a group that was reduced to 14 riders, including the likes of Frank Schleck, Andy Schleck, Carlos Sastre, Cadel Evans, Christian Vande Velde, Alejandro Valverde, Bernhard Kohl, Denis Menchov, Pieter Weening, David Moncoutie, Samuel Sanchez, and Sandy Casar?

Who was 3rd among young riders on that stage - ahead of Nibali and Hesjedal?

Who rode with Menchov for much of that climb, just dangling off the back of the yellow jersey group after a blistering attack at the base of the climb that spintered the peloton? Hint: 19:49 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4feLtHt60w

And who was 16th in the final time trial of that Tour - 2nd best young rider of that stage? For a first year pro on a small team with almost no international experience, that's plenty of sign of talent and potential. FWIW, the Giro clip you all like to show is always presented without its context - it was the result of a failed attack after a 160 km break in a small group. Big deal.

Rode with Menchov for much of the climb? He stayed with him for a few minutes when Menchov was in difficulty after the early attacks, then finished the stage 9 minutes behind him. And with the group having been reduced to that small number, Froome was a hanger-on from the break. He was detached from the group shortly after Johan freaking van Summeren.

It was a pretty good day that indicated one day he could be a decent rider, but nothing that suggested "this guy will win a GT". Augustyn - who is younger - attacking and cresting Bonette first drew more attention and deservedly so. Rigoberto Urán in the final week of the 2009 Tour was far more visible.

There's a reason that the Froome apologists always point to that day as the sign that Froome had the GC talent, and it's the same reason the cynics point to the Taaramäe on San Luca: there's practically nothing else to point to. He did next to nothing noteworthy - either good OR bad - until August 2011.

A few weeks after that Alpe show, Robert Gesink, who's a year younger than Froome, finished 6th on Anglirú en route to a Vuelta top 10. After a season where he'd been 4th in Paris-Nice, 12th in País Vasco, 4th in Flèche Wallonne, 4th in the Dauphiné. THAT is showing the potential that says you can be a GT winner. Being in the break of the day and eventually finishing 30th on the stage is a pretty impressive showing for a young competitor like Froome was in 2008, but if that's all it takes to justify somebody carving the field up like he suddenly started doing in August 2011 with no warning whatsoever and after two years of achieving absolutely bupkis, guys like Christophe Riblon and Amaël Moinard would be GT winners by now.

He stayed with Menchov for almost 5 km. A rider's potential obviously requires consideration of developmental context. Comparison's to riders like Geink are unfair - a rider developing in the Dutch junior program is going to develop earlier than someone who was basically a college kid (on a continent with a handful of protour riders) a year before turning pro and riding the Tour. He showed he had climbing and time trial potential. Considering his race schedule leading up to the 2008 Tour and his lack of background, I think it's actually pretty miraculous he even finished.

same argument del1962 used a few weeks ago, still equally foolish. nibali did the giro-tour double that year and top 20'd both races. obviously he was blowing up impressively over the last couple of stages but up until that point he was giving andy, who had focused only on the tour, a run for his money for the white jersey. oh and he still finished like 2 hours ahead of froome on GC by the end of that tour.

Your move mastersracer.

 

[Havetts]

117 moves without developing the Knight?

 

[ebandit]

next move

Your move mastersracer.

surely the next move is for team sky to make....................flopped in the classics thus far

a couple of 'surprising' performances in minor stage races sends the sky thread into overdrive

maybe? froome is the loose cannon but he always has been a gutsy rider

i recall a cycling friend talking about froome when he was still at barlowworld
'there is a rider that one day will win the tdf' it seemed so off the wall
i did not even laugh!

.............if he can't ride in a straight line up hill how did he complete the tdf with a second rate team?

why did team sky sign up such a hopeless cyclist?

it's going to be an interesting summer..................don't dispair totally
i may be slow uphill but i cycle with more style than froome

Mark L

 

[The Hitch]

117 moves without developing the Knight?

Who needs the knight when you are playing on supereasy mode (debating mastersracer)

 

[Ferminal]

...

You forgot to mention that Froome came from a village in Africa, had no international experience, and only picked up a road bike in 2007.