Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Oct 17, 2012
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Hawkwood said:
The UK may have draconian libel laws, but if you can demonstrate in court that what you wrote was true, you're innocent. In the high profile cases, where newspapers and others were hammered, the defendants couldn't prove that what they wrote was true.

Even if you can prove what you wrote was true, you can still lose. Jeffery Archer, Lance Armstrong, Liberace, Sonia Sutcliffe, Edwina Currie et al all won their cases by lying through their teeth.

Anyhow, what passes as proof in the Clinic wouldn't cut it in a Court of Law.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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Spencer the Half Wit said:
Even if you can prove what you wrote was true, you can still lose. Jeffery Archer, Lance Armstrong, Liberace, Sonia Sutcliffe, Edwina Currie et al all won their cases by lying through their teeth.

Anyhow, what passes as proof in the Clinic wouldn't cut it in a Court of Law.
ah, the liberace trial...mirror, wasn't it (off top of my head so may be wrong)
 
Dec 13, 2012
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will10 said:
Armstrong is still the but.t of jokes amongst lots of non-cycling people I know.

Strange how different circles are different. Quite a lot of club cyclists I know hold the 'they were all on it - so he didn't have much of an advantage' line. Strange but that's the way it seems to be.
 
May 26, 2010
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Spencer the Half Wit said:
Even if you can prove what you wrote was true, you can still lose. Jeffery Archer, Lance Armstrong, Liberace, Sonia Sutcliffe, Edwina Currie et al all won their cases by lying through their teeth.

Anyhow, what passes as proof in the Clinic wouldn't cut it in a Court of Law.

Armstrong did not win his case in a court of law. It was settled out of court. Sunday Times lawyers got cold feet.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Hawkwood said:
The UK may have draconian libel laws, but if you can demonstrate in court that what you wrote was true, you're innocent. In the high profile cases, where newspapers and others were hammered, the defendants couldn't prove that what they wrote was true.

Spencer the Half Wit said:
Even if you can prove what you wrote was true, you can still lose. Jeffery Archer, Lance Armstrong, Liberace, Sonia Sutcliffe, Edwina Currie et al all won their cases by lying through their teeth.

Thanks Spencer. I am not in the UK any more, but my reading certainly lead me to a different conclusion than Hawkwood.
 
Oct 17, 2012
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martinvickers said:
ah, the liberace trial...mirror, wasn't it (off top of my head so may be wrong)

Daily Mirror called him "fruit-flavoured". Armstrong's case didn't get to court, but he would have lied through his teeth in the statements and court papers.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Galic Ho said:
Exchange with psychopath. Wrong word.

If you want I can do a similar reply for every time you use the wrong term. We'd be here for a long long long time.;)
i thought it was a simple phonetic conflation. i can understand, because when i use a qwerty, i often mistype and use phonic spelling, or using the wrong words completely, and i never draft nor revise, so if reading back i wonder what the heck i was writing.

my brain (if i have one, most would attest i dont) is not wired to use a keyboard and type with correct spammar n grelliing.

i wonder if there are any neuro studies on this, because i know i am not unique in this regard. (re: spelling, and other errors, that pen and paper would not incur)

but i give you more credit than dermie, he once talked about a great anthropologist when he obviously meant philantropist. tom harley is a good one too
 
Feb 28, 2010
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Dear Wiggo said:
Thanks Spencer. I am not in the UK any more, but my reading certainly lead me to a different conclusion than Hawkwood.

And there are some equally high profile cases where the complainant has lied, has lost the case, and has been bankrupted. Re Archer yes he lied, but he was found out later and went to prison.
 
Jan 3, 2011
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Papa Kel said:
All this talk of doping is fine, but we really do need to actually know more about what it is the current Sky team is actually taking to give them the performances they are achieving. Blood bags? Great, most likely, but that's nothing that large numbers of the peloton aren't doing as well. AICAR? GW1516? Maybe. Some new form of EPO? Who knows. I think more discussion really does need to go into this than what does. Or is it just that in reality, we have absolutely NO idea.

I agree. If most of us can agree on something is going on, then maybe we can move on to the discussion what that something is.

Also given the bio-passport I dont think the majority of the peloton is doing blood-bags, at least not to the extent as before.

Maybe the thing is that a lot of the riders who just follow suit and copy what the competitors are doing have gotten more clean (not beacuse they want, but because it got harder to cheat). However, I reckon some might have found new methods that dont get discovered in tests and might also be hard to discover in the bop-passport. Maybe Sky got the first-mover-advantage on something new, while, for the time being, the rest got more clean. Later on I reckon the rest will follow suit, when they find out what the new thing/method is (surely Sky would like to keep the first mvoer advantage as long as they can, but sooner or later its bound to become more widepread).

What that new thing could I have no idea about. But something is going on. Cyclists always find new way to enhance their performance. When the anti-doping agenciens close one door, they find another.
 
Mar 26, 2013
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Cimber said:
I agree. If most of us can agree on something is going on. Maybe we can move on to the discussion what that something is.

Also given the bio-passport I dont think the majority of the peloton is doing blood-bags, at least not to the extent as before.

Maybe the thing is that a lot of the riders who just follow suit and copy when the competitors were doing have gotten more clean (not beacuse they want, but because it got harder to cheat). However, I reckon some might have found new methods that dont get discoreved in tests and might also be hard to discover in the bop-passport. Maybe Sky got the first mover advantage on soemthign new, while, for the time, being the rest got more clean. Later on I reckon the rest will follow suit, when they find out what the new thing/method is (surely Sky would like to keep the first mvoer advantage as long as they can, but sooner or later its bound to become more widepread).

What taht new thing could I have no idea about. But something is going on. Cyclists always find new way to enhance their performance. When the anti-doping agenciens close one door, they find another.

This is the kind of thing I like to hear. This forum seems to do a lot of standing still, and by that I mean gets stuck in the "is he doping or isn't he doping" debate. When it's relatively pointless without CLEAR evidence and when at least 75% of The Clinic already agrees that someone does dope. So, why don't we develop the discussion a little bit. Expand it. And this, above, is one great way to do so...
 
Mar 13, 2009
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bobbins said:
To be fair the UK cycling world is a very small world. Cross the wrong people and life an be made very hard. Work in the cycle industry and cross the wrong people and you'll soon be looking for new work.

Not in the UK, but I am sure Frankie and Mike Anderson (among others) could confirm this.
 
Jul 13, 2012
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Papa Kel said:
All this talk of doping is fine, but we really do need to actually know more about what it is the current Sky team is actually taking to give them the performances they are achieving. Blood bags? Great, most likely, but that's nothing that large numbers of the peloton aren't doing as well. AICAR? GW1516? Maybe. Some new form of EPO? Who knows. I think more discussion really does need to go into this than what does. Or is it just that in reality, we have absolutely NO idea.

Absolutely no idea?, absolutely.
 
Feb 28, 2010
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Dear Wiggo said:
Thanks Spencer. I am not in the UK any more, but my reading certainly lead me to a different conclusion than Hawkwood.

And if you want some fun Google `Gillian Taylforth' and `libel' to see how badly wrong things can go if you lie in a libel case.
 
Oct 17, 2012
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Hawkwood said:
And if you want some fun Google `Gillian Taylforth' and `libel' to see how badly wrong things can go if you lie in a libel case.

You can also add Jonathon Aitken, with his "sword of truth".

Point is, and this will be confirmed by most journalists, that they have to be 100% sure of a story before they will print, because of the threat of libel. Even if they win they can still be thousands out of pocket, just ask Simon Singh.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
Start trawling the body building forums. Buried in among the muscle geeks are endurance dopers. There's quite a few forums and they are busy so it will take time. My problem is I haven't learned their language, so even if I understood the biology, which I don't, it's hard to figure out what they are saying sometimes.

You need an education institution pass so you too can read research and get out ahead of the dopers. It all takes time though...

My basic understanding is the peptide doping is a revolution.

Maybe. But keep in mind a few inconvenient truths:

1) any substance/program designed to increase red blood cell/hemoglobin (either directly, or indirectly, by increasing endogenous EPO), runs afoul of the passport. Yes, the passport can be evaded to some extent, but if we are concerned with what Sky might be doing that other riders/teams aren't doing, that's irrelevant. It's a fairly level playing field. Unless, of course, you think they have protection that others don't.

2) artificial oxygen vectors, which could evade the passport, have been around for a while. If the Sky riders are taking these, it's most likely not because they have access to something other riders don't, but because they have the nerve and the connections to take something relatively untested and dangerous, while the others don't. I can imagine a single rider doing this. I really doubt that an entire team would.

3) As the recent Coggan thread emphasizes (regardless of how you feel about publishing that study on LA), the evidence that training can increase efficiency is controversial. What this means is that for a rider to increase power, at least by very much, he likely has to take in more oxygen. So again, we are back to either known manipulations detectable by the passport, or artificial oxygen vectors.

In another thread there were some references to “lipid power”, i.e., burning more fat rather than glycogen. The idea is that substances that alter metabolism might be performance enhancing. But burning fat is more inefficient, in the sense that it requires more oxygen to produce the same amount of power. So switching metabolism to fats only helps if one isn’t riding at full intensity, where oxygen is not a limiting factor. Under these conditions, one can save glycogen, as Ferrari suggests in a link in that thread, for a critical part of the race where one is on the limit. But there is no free lunch. One is still taking in more oxygen than one would if one were using more glycogen, which means the CV system is working harder. And given that there are not just two speeds in a race--on the limit or far off the limit--but more like a gradation it's not clear that training one's body to utilize a higher fat/carbohydrate ratio (if that is even possible) is really going to help one in any endurance sport. At speeds near the limit, which could occur in parts of the middle of the race, the lower efficiency could work against the rider.

So again, the bottom line is oxygen intake. This is what has to be increased in order to increase power.

4) Of course, what a GT rider really wants to maximize is power to weight, so drugs that can result in weight loss are helpful. But drugs like these don’t do anything that can’t be achieved without drugs. They just accelerate the process. So I doubt that Sky’s success has come just from a better weight loss regime.

For these reasons, I take a skeptical view of the possibility that Sky is on some program unique to them. I wouldn't rule it out, but I would have to see some evidence before I took it very seriously.

OTOH, much of their success may come from the strength of their team. There has been a lot of discussion here about how multiple riders on the team are looking like Contador clones. So at least part of their success might result from practices that are not unique to them, but which are applied more aggressively to the entire team, rather than to a single rider.

I started a thread here about a week ago, which apparently was accidentally deleted by one of the mods, suggesting that if there is a team-wide doping program at Sky, it might be detected by a statistical program looking not at individual riders, but at a whole team. Any individual rider can blood dope to some extent, as long as his parameters fall short of the stringent criteria used in the passport. But if every rider on a team, or even many riders on a team, dope to a degree that comes close to significance, an analysis of the entire team might well push the result over the line.

E.g., if a single rider had blood parameters that deviated with 95-99% probability from his baseline, he would not trigger a red flag. But if multiple riders on a team all deviated from their baselines to this degree, that could be different. The odds of, say, four, five or six riders with parameters like that would be significant at a level that, if found for a single rider, would trigger a sanction. You would have the very unusual situation where you could prove statistically to a high degree of confidence that at least one rider on the team was doping, without being able to identify any single rider on the team with any certainty.

Even to apply this approach, you would have to test everyone on the team at the same time. But if you did indeed find multiple riders who individually were close to the passport limit, this would be very strong evidence for a team-wide doping program. Since no individual rider would trigger a red flag, I don’t see how it would be possible to sanction anyone under these circumstances, but the team should suffer penalties in this case.
 

thehog

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Jul 27, 2009
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/brailsford-doping-is-addictive-like-going-from-marijuana-to-cocaine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LwzfWal4kE4#t=83s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LwzfWal4kE4#t=603s

I think the Dawg and the Devil did not get the memo. That gearing of Porte is just insane.

But to be fair to team SKY, the opposition was weak, not in form, blablabla.

SOSDNYou shall not tarnish the Great Brits!

Watching this again.

Did Porte LeBlanc his attack?

I think he out his breaks on going uphill?!

Watch him attack around the hairpin and apply e breaks.

Sky have become Festina 1998.
 
Jan 20, 2013
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ANCrider said:
You've been watching too many films.

You are kidding yourself if you think that people didn't talk to each other at the time. You, and everyone else on the outside may have had to wait years to find out some of the details, but you can be sure that the reason Walsh went after Armstrong with such certainty was not based on a hunch.

You appear to have very little understanding of the reality of life within the bubble that was pro racing in that era.

I think you have been reading to many nudnik's posts on this forum (ANCrider). Your sport, "pro cycling" the beautiful game's murky underworld.....is to this outsider so transparent it both hurts, and is the better part of the entertainment value, that keeps me showing up in the clinic.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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Merckx index said:
...But there is no free lunch. One is still taking in more oxygen than one would if one were using more glycogen, which means the CV system is working harder....

Great post, though I'm not sure the "CV system working harder" is a problem when at sufficiently low levels of intensity to be able to "fat-burn" to a significant degree.

At fat-burning levels of intensity, one is normally working at around 50% of maximum intensity and not accumulating lactate and not depleting glycogen stores significantly. If the CV system is taking in 60% of its capacity to fat burn as opposed to 50% to use glycogen, what adverse impact does this have on the body's ability to ride quickly subsequently?

This is a genuine question. In Weekend Warrior world, developing fat-burning capability is the key to riding successfully all day, as opposed to a few hours, as you can only store so much glycogen and digest so much food during a ride. Glycogen must be a limited commodity for the pros as well, given how much effort goes into eating, and the "unwritten rule" of not attacking at a feed station.
 
Oct 16, 2012
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Wallace and Gromit said:
Great post, though I'm not sure the "CV system working harder" is a problem when at sufficiently low levels of intensity to be able to "fat-burn" to a significant degree.

At fat-burning levels of intensity, one is normally working at around 50% of maximum intensity and not accumulating lactate and not depleting glycogen stores significantly. If the CV system is taking in 60% of its capacity to fat burn as opposed to 50% to use glycogen, what adverse impact does this have on the body's ability to ride quickly subsequently?

This is a genuine question. In Weekend Warrior world, developing fat-burning capability is the key to riding successfully all day, as opposed to a few hours, as you can only store so much glycogen and digest so much food during a ride. Glycogen must be a limited commodity for the pros as well, given how much effort goes into eating, and the "unwritten rule" of not attacking at a feed station.

Glycogen is always a limited comodity, at around 18 miles of a marathon (if you run at a proper pace), your body will run out.

There are ways you can get your body to use more fat by training with delpleted glycogen stores, but this is not great for your health, though I am certain the pros do it.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Wallace and Gromit said:
Great post, though I'm not sure the "CV system working harder" is a problem when at sufficiently low levels of intensity to be able to "fat-burn" to a significant degree.

At fat-burning levels of intensity, one is normally working at around 50% of maximum intensity and not accumulating lactate and not depleting glycogen stores significantly. If the CV system is taking in 60% of its capacity to fat burn as opposed to 50% to use glycogen, what adverse impact does this have on the body's ability to ride quickly subsequently?

This is a genuine question. In Weekend Warrior world, developing fat-burning capability is the key to riding successfully all day, as opposed to a few hours, as you can only store so much glycogen and digest so much food during a ride. Glycogen must be a limited commodity for the pros as well, given how much effort goes into eating, and the "unwritten rule" of not attacking at a feed station.
does not AICAR in synergy with GW 1516 or whatever it is, work on using lipids?
 

thehog

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Merckx index said:
Maybe. But keep in mind a few inconvenient truths:

1) any substance/program designed to increase red blood cell/hemoglobin (either directly, or indirectly, by increasing endogenous EPO), runs afoul of the passport. Yes, the passport can be evaded to some extent, but if we are concerned with what Sky might be doing that other riders/teams aren't doing, that's irrelevant. It's a fairly level playing field. Unless, of course, you think they have protection that others don't.

2) artificial oxygen vectors, which could evade the passport, have been around for a while. If the Sky riders are taking these, it's most likely not because they have access to something other riders don't, but because they have the nerve and the connections to take something relatively untested and dangerous, while the others don't. I can imagine a single rider doing this. I really doubt that an entire team would.
.

?????

Since when did every team have the logistics/money to run a program to beat the passport!
 
Jul 10, 2010
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Papa Kel said:
All this talk of doping is fine, . . . Or is it just that in reality, we have absolutely NO idea.

xcleigh said:
Absolutely no idea?, absolutely.

Well, we DO need to give PK a little literary license, especially since this is a condensed and conversational formet, eh? Although, when arguing with my wife, use of "absolutely" would land me in deep doo-doo.

Papa Kel said:
This is the kind of thing I like to hear. This forum seems to do a lot of standing still, and by that I mean gets stuck in the "is he doping or isn't he doping" debate. . . ....

DirtyWorks said:
Start trawling the body building forums. Buried in among the muscle geeks are endurance dopers. . . ..

Merckx index said:
Maybe. But keep in mind . . .
the passport can be evaded to some extent, . . .
So again, we are back to either known manipulations detectable by the passport, or artificial oxygen vectors.

. . .
So again, the bottom line is oxygen intake. This is what has to be increased in order to increase power.

For these reasons, I take a skeptical view of the possibility that Sky is on some program unique to them. . . .
OTOH, much of their success may come from the strength of their team. . . .
I . . ."suggest" (sic, h2) that if there is a team-wide doping program at Sky, it might be detected by a statistical program looking not at individual riders, but at a whole team. . . ..

Body builders - yep, agree - those guys are on the front lines of substance use.
Merckx Index: your post is excellently rational, well-thought, and written. Your idea about team testing is also an excellent one. However, there is one little-bitty problem in your assumptions. I.e. the bio-passport. Your arguments rely on the effectiveness of same. And, as Ashenden so kindly and bluntly pointed out - this is a problem! Also, any faith that the UCI, under current leadership, is truly interested in pursuing an effective bio-passport strategy, is also in question. Until the UCI subscribes to Ashenden's more rigorous standards, we are back at square one in the doping arguments.

blackcat said:
i thought it was a simple phonetic conflation. i can understand, because when i use a qwerty, i often mistype and use phonic spelling, or using the wrong words completely, and i never draft nor revise, so if reading back i wonder what the heck i was writing.

my brain (if i have one, most would attest i dont) is not wired to use a keyboard and type with correct spammar n grelliing.

i wonder if there are any neuro studies on this, because i know i am not unique in this regard. (re: spelling, and other errors, that pen and paper would not incur)

but i give you more credit than dermie, he once talked about a great anthropologist when he obviously meant philantropist. tom harley is a good one too

Changing the subject for a minute, I had to comment on this beautiful example of humility and honesty. And humor, I might add! Btw, I think there are studies about the learning diff of cursive vs keyboard. But it sounds to me more like you suffer from the traditional mistakes of using qwerty keyboards, and as you point out, a lack of editing.

I might have to clip your post, along with the thread location, and put it in my journal - as a sunny example to pull out on a dark day. Not to mention using it when an opportune moment comes to remind you of your own comment. :D ;)