Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Don't be late Pedro]

Yeah, sure. Instead they stuck with competing at the Olympics, the dirtiest sporting event in the world.

In America you get a feast of clean sport in the NFL, MBL, NBA...

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I couldn't agree more. It really hacks me off about these constant defences of "Oh, a rider from <insert country name here> couldn't be doping because <insert ridiculous excuse here>".

It's all cr@p. Any rider from any country can dope for any number of reasons. If you believe otherwise to this, quite frankly, you're deluded.

I can assure u it is not a cultural thing. When Rabo were so ridiculously good in 2007 due to the Vienna bloodbank 7 out of 10 Dutchies really believed this stuff, hell, the riders themselves even believed it. They even believed Menchov in 2009. Come on, we Dutch 'invented' the word doping!

Scary stuff. Is it nationalism, fanboyism [dont mean it negatively, everybody gets fooled sometimes] or what?

I grew up with/'supported' the Raleigh/Panasonic teams of Peter Post, if one thinks they were clean they should be put into an asylum.

Only Canadians dont dope.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Tom Simpson's name was dragged through the gutter
by the Tour de France organization to deflect any
examination of their responsibility in Simpson's death
due to their arcane (and criminal) four bidon per day
restriction. Shame on you for perpetuating the myth.

Love Tom Simpson but he was a habitual amphetamine abuser who went beyond using it to enhance performance into addiction. At the bottom of the Ventoux, already ill with a stomach bug he raided a bar, grabbed a half bottle of brandy, drank that on top of the amphetamine and then tried to ride up the Ventoux ill, intoxicated and fatally dehydrated. The amphetamine meant he was delirious and unable to read his body's signals and make a rational decision as to whether continue cycling or not.

Nobody else to blame for that.

 

[Matty_Tucks]

I can assure u it is not a cultural thing. When Rabo were so ridiculously good in 2007 due to the Vienna bloodbank 7 out of 10 Dutchies really believed this stuff, hell, the riders themselves even believed it. They even believed Menchov in 2009. Come on, we Dutch 'invented' the word doping!

Scary stuff. Is it nationalism, fanboyism [dont mean it negatively, everybody gets fooled sometimes] or what?

I grew up with/'supported' the Raleigh/Panasonic teams of Peter Post, if one thinks they were clean they should be put into an asylum.

Only Canadians dont dope.

It isn't fanboyism, if I genuinely felt that it was a strong possibility I would say so. Having ridden with national champions (occasionally beating them up hills too!) gives me some of the justification needed to believe what I do.

 

[Matty_Tucks]

I might hasten to add that on a personal level, I can recognise the hard work that has got them there. And connected to a prestigious university, there is no way an institution would tolerate that.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Don't play the 'culture' card, it's a red rag to a bull in here. If you have first hand experience, relate that instead and people will appreciate it more.

 

[martinvickers]

All nations do have cheats. But my opinion is that Sky's arrival on the scene has taken place at a time when they could be more sure that this sort of thing wasn't taking place. My interpretation is that for years, a lot of British cyclists stayed out of the European scene (save for Dave Millar, who we know what happened to) because of it's barely-concealed cheating culture.

And again, Millar, like Froome, is not a BC product.

There's an interesting discussion to be had about the politics of popular culture, sport, cultural history and authoritariansim; how certain countries have developed different doping or cheating cultures in different sports. There's even been some fairly interesting and occasionally startling academic research on the subject.

But that conversation won't happen here; the hysteria would overwhelm it, so there's no point going down that road. People will believe what they want to believe on both sides as an article of faith. Best to just accept that, maybe.

 

[Franklin]

Matty, perhaps it would help if you realize that Universities have often been involved with dope programs.

Now towards the cultural; consider that in for example athletics the Brittish like to dope just as much as the rest of the world it's extremely hard to debate that the English culture is different in this regard.

Even stronger, Italy and Spain, these oh so corrupt countries are actually the only countries prosecuting these doping rings... Unless we hear of an English investigation into Wimbledon Tennis or Manchester United I don't see any reason to think England is hard on doping.

Sky might be clean, but it has absolutely zero to do with this supposed cultural superiority.

 

[BroDeal]

I might hasten to add that on a personal level, I can recognise the hard work that has got them there. And connected to a prestigious university, there is no way an institution would tolerate that.

Freiburg University, affectionately known as F-U, disagrees.

 

[Franklin]

Don't play the 'culture' card, it's a red rag to a bull in here. If you have first hand experience, relate that instead and people will appreciate it more.

Jimmy, of course you realize that the "culture" card is rather hard to maintain when we look at the history of doping in the UK? And that the supposed bad countries could actually look bad because they crack down harder on this doping problem?

Naah, couldn't be, eh?

 

[coinneach]

And again, Millar, like Froome, is not a BC product.

There's an interesting discussion to be had about the politics of popular culture, sport, cultural history and authoritariansim; how certain countries have developed different doping or cheating cultures in different sports. There's even been some fairly interesting and occasionally startling academic research on the subject.

But that conversation won't happen here; the hysteria would overwhelm it, so there's no point going down that road. People will believe what they want to believe on both sides as an article of faith. Best to just accept that, maybe.

Amen to that, Martin!
(Do you really believe that, or are you trying to convince yourself?)

 

[JimmyFingers]

@Franklin: Yeah. Hence why I said don't use it.

 

[Franklin]

Freiburg University, affectionately known as F-U, disagrees.

Uno de enero
Dos de febrero
Tres de marzo
Cuatro de abril
Cinco de mayo
Seis de junio
Siete de julio
A-Pamplona San Fermin, tra-la-la-la...

City of light, this is the city of light
Got my headphones on, tonight I feel so strong
Radio on, I've got the radio on
They play the new song, it turn me o-o-on

They had a choir, it took me higher
'Cause they sing nana...

And I'm gonna go to the city
where life is surreal and it's pretty
in Pamplona, in Pamplona
I will follow you up and tell you that I...
in Pamplona, in Pamplona
I will follow you up and tell you that I...

Matador's hat, I need a matador's hat
I need a moustache, I need it fast
I'm so inspired, give me the choir
And we'll sing nana...

So call me naive or insane
deny I will be [???]
in Pamplona, in Pamplona
I will follow you up and tell you that I...
in Pamplona, in Pamplona
I will follow you up and tell you that I'm
not a coward, not a sissy
in Pamplona

 

[thehog]

Don't play the 'culture' card, it's a red rag to a bull in here. If you have first hand experience, relate that instead and people will appreciate it more.

Jijmy's back!

Have seen you since your drunkin' outbursts.

How was the hangover?

 

[thehog]

Good to see old school doper Di Luca couldn't keep up with the clean team Sky train.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

And again, Millar, like Froome, is not a BC product.

There's an interesting discussion to be had about the politics of popular culture, sport, cultural history and authoritariansim; how certain countries have developed different doping or cheating cultures in different sports. There's even been some fairly interesting and occasionally startling academic research on the subject.

But that conversation won't happen here; the hysteria would overwhelm it, so there's no point going down that road. People will believe what they want to believe on both sides as an article of faith. Best to just accept that, maybe.

That statement says more about you then it does for those you are attempting to dismiss.

Why not post these discussion and link to the academic studies in a new thread?
While I think it would be fair that different countries develop different 'cultures' that would go out the window when one goes in to a new environment.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Thanks for a summary of over 20,000 posts!

Probably no one doubts something happened to Sky riders at a team level after 2010: Wiggins, Froome, Uran, Henao might show the biggest spikes on CQ for Sky (some like Porte, Thomas don't show the same development)

I'm not sure how diagnostic weight loss is of GW501516. But curious, does anyone have evidence about weight-loss across the team? e.g., Wiggins, Froome, Uran, Henao.

I don't know about Uran. His trajectory is more believable. He's finishing grand tours very well since his first one. Quite unlike a number of other Sky podium contenders. I'm not saying he's clean. He's on Sky's grand tour squad after all.

Weight is a closely guarded metric because weight combined with power estimates gives you a very good estimation of your competitors. I think these images comparing 00's 'skinny' with 2013 'skinny' is relevant. http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/50324725645/the-rail-thin-phonak-rider-started-the-vueltas

 

[Matty_Tucks]

Don't play the 'culture' card, it's a red rag to a bull in here. If you have first hand experience, relate that instead and people will appreciate it more.

I would remind you all that culture is not a nationalistic thing. I'm merely suggesting that there has been an export from BC to Sky in many respects. If anybody has ever been to BC's HQ, you can see that the two in many respects are inseparable.

For this reason it's not an accurate analogy to go off and discuss British tennis or other sports. They may or may not have their problems.

 

[Netserk]

Weight is a closely guarded metric because weight combined with power estimates gives you a very good estimation of your competitors. I think these images comparing 90's 'skinny' with 2013 'skinny' is relevant. http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/50324725645/the-rail-thin-phonak-rider-started-the-vueltas

That's not 90's, but '00s.

 

[Matty_Tucks]

I don't know about Uran. His trajectory is more believable. He's finishing grand tours very well since his first one. Quite unlike a number of other Sky podium contenders. I'm not saying he's clean. He's on Sky's grand tour squad after all.

Weight is a closely guarded metric because weight combined with power estimates gives you a very good estimation of your competitors. I think these images comparing 90's 'skinny' with 2013 'skinny' is relevant. http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/50324725645/the-rail-thin-phonak-rider-started-the-vueltas

I literally cannot believe that you consider photography accurate scientific data.

 

[the sceptic]

I literally cannot believe that you consider photography accurate scientific data.

Do we have to write peer reviewed papers before posting photos now?

 

[DirtyWorks]

I literally cannot believe that you consider photography accurate scientific data.

It's not "scientific" but good enough. Pick a landmark on the Eurosport feed, start the stopwatch, stop the clock at another landmark further up the mountain. You don't need tenths of seconds. With that data and a rider's weight, you have lots of valuable data about your competitors.

If you have some idea of the power capabilities of your competitors, then you have a much smaller range of possibilities to work with for race tactics.

 

[Matty_Tucks]

Do we have to write peer reviewed papers before posting photos now?

A bit of rigorous methodology wouldn't hurt, to be honest. I often find the accusations on here bordering on libelous, and photography seems to me just a spurious bit of evidence.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

A bit of rigorous methodology wouldn't hurt, to be honest. I often find the accusations on here bordering on libelous, and photography seems to me just a spurious bit of evidence.

How would you know if these accusations are libelous or not?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Surely the burden of proof should lie on the individual attempting to prosecute a doping offence? It's a question of the rule of law. You can't go around pointing fingers, such attempts would be laughed out of a courtroom.

This again.
#1 Anti-doping in most countries is a non-criminal, not-governmental organization.
#2 The only athletes willing to go down the libel road in the UK turned out not only to be dopers, but international sports frauds. Which, sums up the IOC and UCI pretty well. But, that's taking the discussion a different direction.