Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[the sceptic]

Isnt having the best doctor/program the reason why some teams dominate rather than having collected a bunch of super responders?

 

[Bexon30]

The finest natural talent since Jan Ullrich

?

Yeah that made me laugh also. Jan was gifted but he'll never be called that again, shame because in his early years I believed he was the natural we were led told. EBH still has time to improve more as well this year could see that maybe,?

 

[kingjr]

Yeah that made me laugh also. Jan was gifted but he'll never be called that again, shame because in his early years I believed he was the natural we were led told. EBH still has time to improve more as well this year could see that maybe,?

Don't know how believable it is but according to Ullrich's own words he won his Olympic Gold+Silver clean. That wouldn't be too bad.

 

[martinvickers]

Your post is all over the place - but to the highlighted, thats my reading of what is meant.

that's kind of my point. Somehow it's.em, baaad..to turn donkey's into racehorses - which is fair enough, so far as it goes...but now it's ...em..baaad to turn racehorse into donkeys! Because a team will want to turn a racehorse into a donkey. right? right?

To the "why?" - Sky always wanted a "British Tour Winner" and they can afford to keep other riders.

then why charge up Porte?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Don't know how believable it is but according to Ullrich's own words he won his Olympic Gold+Silver clean. That wouldn't be too bad.

Yeah, because he would want to admit to cheating to win those. Sort of like how everyone stopped in 06

 

[armchairclimber]

EBH = the new Merckx? :

Fantastic rider and a good shout for stage wins but **** me.

Kimmage might have embarrassed Brailsford but that might actually have jack **** to do with doping. What was he supposed to say? Actually, he's just not as good as Froome? Which is probably the truth of the matter. It's just not what you would want to say about someone who you "manage".

 

[kingjr]

Yeah, because he would want to admit to cheating to win those. Sort of like how everyone stopped in 06

Well we can agree that you definitely had to dope to win a Tour in the 90's and the Armstrong years but to win a One-Day-Race? Is it really that unbelievable?

 

[andy1234]

Do you have to pay the Lance fans a finders fee or copyright fee for using their old arguments?

Nope, "Kimmage is an irritating t**t" was copyrighted by me in the 90ies.
Lance fans, and everyone else had to pay me every time they used it.
I'm now a very Wealthy man Doc, very wealthy.

 

[The Hitch]

Well we can agree that you definitely had to dope to win a Tour in the 90's and the Armstrong years but to win a One-Day-Race? Is it really that unbelievable?

Have you seen the LBL palmares since 1990? Pretty much every rider until 2009 got caught doping and Andy Schleck Gilbert and Iglinsky are among the most dodgy "clean" athletes in history.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

that's kind of my point. Somehow it's.em, baaad..to turn donkey's into racehorses - which is fair enough, so far as it goes...but now it's ...em..baaad to turn racehorse into donkeys! Because a team will want to turn a racehorse into a donkey. right? right?

then why charge up Porte?

What? What?
If you have a coherent point or query, could you make it please.

As for Porte, he is not the Tour leader, but he is the leaders main Dom. It would make perfect sense to have him on the same program.
(And I am not suggesting that link - but since you are attempting to confuse a simple process, I will continue to correct it)

 

[kingjr]

Have you seen the LBL palmares since 1990? Pretty much every rider until 2009 got caught doping and Andy Schleck Gilbert and Iglinsky are among the most dodgy "clean" athletes in history.

It doesn't mean though that they were all juiced in that particular race. Maybe some of the riders won it clean. Who knows?

 

[pmcg76]

EBH = the new Merckx? :

Fantastic rider and a good shout for stage wins but **** me.

Kimmage might have embarrassed Brailsford but that might actually have jack **** to do with doping. What was he supposed to say? Actually, he's just not as good as Froome? Which is probably the truth of the matter. It's just not what you would want to say about someone who you "manage".

Come on, when SKY were formed, EBH was considered their biggest potential star whilst Froome was signed because he happened to be a British rider who was out of contract which SKY wanted.

Around 2009, the hyperbole around EBH was unreal and at that time nobody knew which way he would go(classics or GTs) in terms of development, just that he was a massive talent and considered by many including the Brit mag's to be the future of the sport. How many prime features did Froome have in comparison to EBH in ProCycling or Cycle Sport.

 

[Bexon30]

Just out of interest are we likely to see another Sky man break the top 10 or even better with a sudden form spike this time round?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Nope, "Kimmage is an irritating t**t" was copyrighted by me in the 90ies.
Lance fans, and everyone else had to pay me every time they used it.
I'm now a very Wealthy man Doc, very wealthy.

Funny that making money upsets you so much
I seems you will have a very lucrative Tour because it looks like Kimmage is going to do his job as a journo and upset some fragile egos.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

EBH = the new Merckx? :

Fantastic rider and a good shout for stage wins but **** me.

Kimmage might have embarrassed Brailsford but that might actually have jack **** to do with doping. What was he supposed to say? Actually, he's just not as good as Froome? Which is probably the truth of the matter. It's just not what you would want to say about someone who you "manage".

Kimmage has got overexcited and jumped the gun before though, remember him declaring Kohl clean? That one's going to haunt him forever. His assessment of EBH is perhaps exaggerated, but the guy was really seen as an absolute star in the making, likely seen as fulfilling the role in the péloton that has now been filled by Peter Sagan.

That shouldn't detract from the point that it is interesting that the "marginal gains" and Team Sky's great clean management and so on has seen marked improvements in some riders, including some who weren't seen as capable of much more than domestiquing, who are now péloton destroyers, whereas riders who showed notable talent from a young age - such as EBH or Löfkvist - have not shown any such improvement, and in the latter case have actually regressed horribly in their time at Sky.

Personally I feel that part of that will be accounted for by HTC's better medical and management programs than, say, Barloworld (after all, a lot of other riders have gone on to perform at a lower level after leaving HTC - Velits springs immediately to mind), but you'd expect guys to at least stagnate if they are that talented.

 

[the sceptic]

EBH = the new Merckx? :

Fantastic rider and a good shout for stage wins but **** me.

Kimmage might have embarrassed Brailsford but that might actually have jack **** to do with doping. What was he supposed to say? Actually, he's just not as good as Froome? Which is probably the truth of the matter. It's just not what you would want to say about someone who you "manage".

Froome and Wiggins being the new Lemond is of course much more plausible

 

[armchairclimber]

I remember it well. Funny thing sport.

Personally, I'm hoping that Froome's narrative gets turned over as well.

 

[BYOP88]

Just out of interest are we likely to see another Sky man break the top 10 or even better with a sudden form spike this time round?

On this season's form and previous races, Porte will finish easily in the top 10 and I'm sure they'll have another guy pretty close to the top 10.

 

[Bexon30]

On this season's form and previous races, Porte will finish easily in the top 10 and I'm sure they'll have another guy pretty close to the top 10.

I'm thinking Thomas, Siuoutsou(*) or maybe Edwald? Depends what they are allowed to achieve by Sky. I think Portes a top 5 unless he blows it big one day.

 

[The Hitch]

It doesn't mean though that they were all juiced in that particular race. Maybe some of the riders won it clean. Who knows?

Maybe, but i was pointing out that 1 day races were/are just as dirty as GT's. Especially 1 day races at Sydney 2000, which was an olympics that managed to fit more ped abuse into 14 days than all the Tour de Frances ever ridden put together.

 

[BYOP88]

I'm thinking Thomas, Siuoutsou(*) or maybe Edwald? Depends what they are allowed to achieve by Sky. I think Portes a top 5 unless he blows it big one day.

Regarding Porte you're probably right, top 5 unless he has a bad day. Thomas finishing near the top 10 would be a shock but given what Sky can do with riders it wouldn't be a 'shock' anymore.

 

[andy1234]

Funny that making money upsets you so much
I seems you will have a very lucrative Tour because it looks like Kimmage is going to do his job as a journo and upset some fragile egos.

And there was me thinking a journo's job was to report the truth, when all along it was to get under people's skin.
He didn't make the money he deserved with Armstrong, so he's giving it another shot with anyone else he can
A mans gotta eat, sorry, expose the truth.

 

[del1962]

The finest natural talent since Jan Ullrich

?

Yes EBH is going to be really happy to be compared to a serial cheat like Ulrich, epic fail from Kimmage

 

[Escarabajo]

you can't explain everything, not everything is quantifiable, sporting success espeicially. If there was a proven formula it would be easy, but there are so many variables, so many unknowns. Plenty of athletes out there with the numbers but not the nous to become a wolrd-beater. Not to say EBH isn't one: he remains an extremely good bike rider, one of the finest in the peloton, hence his selection for the Tour. I wouldn't expect him to be leading a TdF team, but I am sure he is very happy to be there, even if it means sacrificing his own ambitions to protect Froome.

What did Eisel say? A year without the Tour is a wasted year.

It is sensationalist: it is unrealistic to compare EBH to Merckx, and suggest he should be enjoying similar success. It is unrealistic to say EBH has 'lost' his talent, that he isn't anything else but one of the best bike riders in the world.

If EBH went to the tdF as leader, it wouldn't be for GC classification, it would be for green and stage wins, unless I missed something. Kimmage is obfuscating to suggest otherwise.

It is not that complicated really. It never was before the 90's. I became more complicated after the 90's. I asked a question a more than a year ago in this forum about early talent becoming GT's and we could not found one that did not show at early age. Not one. Today, if the rider shows early and start winning later we don't know if he was charging all his life. That is not proof of much. But if he was zigzagging on climbs and going in the gruppeto early in his life and all of a sudden becomes a GT winner or contender, then is when people start asking the questions.

There are not that many variables. There never were. Hinault and Cyrille Guimard flew all the way to America to sign the biggest talent of all. They knew it because they saw it. And guess what. He became one. And we are talking back in the early 80's.

Herrera was killing every rider in South America (even if competition was not fierced) at very early age. And guess what? he became one of the greatest climbers of the generation.

Fignon wrote it in his biography. From day one in the Giro he found himself with a few select riders. Delgado did tell his story likewise. From day one he was very surprised that there were only a select few with him. Hinault, Merckx, Anquetil, etc. all the same.

None of these riders were zigzagging with the Gruppeto in the early GT's and then became winners. That's just not natural.

About EBH I am not sure if I would have agreed with people that he was the next Merckx. I really never saw that.

 

[martinvickers]

No, they did not. And anyone I asked on twitter what was it that Kimmage said had no idea and were reacting to Kennaughs tweet.

Em, yes they did. I was reading an article via google translate within minutes of the Kennagh tweet.