Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Netserk]

Just skimmed through the thread so I don't know if already posted.

Leinders was the head of the Rabobank teamwide doping program since 1999

 

[BroDeal]

Just skimmed through the thread so I don't know if already posted.

Leinders was the head of the Rabobank teamwide doping program since 1999

It is not like Sky threw a dart and it just happened by sheer chance to hit a dope doctor who was an expert at running a teamwide program. It is ridiculous that people can believe it was luck of the draw.

Johan Brailsford, lauded for his attention to detail, was too dumb to know who he was hiring? Come on.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

“I rode for that team for 15 years and I know him. It just can't be true. I do not believe it and the people who know him know that it is certainly 100 percent not true.”

Levi's supposed 'revelation' set tongues wagging yesterday. So what do people have to say about this 'revelation'?

That this revelation also contradicts the one in Netserk's post, elaborated and google-translated by classicomano in this post.

Here we have Leipheimer's affidavit, and an anonymous (though probably already identified) rider's confession, vs. Michael Boogerd, who is not voluntarily disclosing information or facing legally binding documents, and also in a position where an attack on Leinders and that era of Rabobank is also an attack on him himself as one of the team's major riders in that era.

It is the problem that the cynicism that cycling has attracted means that statements implying doping are more easily believed than statements implying innocence, but here I feel that I would consider Boogerd to be the least reliable witness of the three, because he has more to gain from lying than the anonymous confessor, and isn't faced with perjury charges if he lies like Leipheimer.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

It is not like Sky threw a dart and it just happened by sheer chance to hit a dope doctor who was an expert at running a teamwide program. It is ridiculous that people can believe it was luck of the draw.

Johan Brailsford, lauded for his attention to detail, was too dumb to know who he was hiring? Come on.

My own personal opinion, which is all it is, is that Leinders was dirty and Brailsford knew this perfectly well. Whether he hired him for his doping or not, is still to be determined. There seems to be an belief that the likes of Leinders and Ibarguren went to medical school and specialised in EPO and its uses and that they walk around their teams with a syringe permanently in their hands. That's not the case. They're doctors whom, in addition to the dirty stuff, apply genuine medical practice and, having experienced the non-doping, physiological and medical requirements of elite professional cyclists at first hand for years, will be expert in their treatment - more so than your next GP off the block. Unless, that is, you believe that athletes who ride 3000 miles in 3 weeks, at 40 km/h, have the same needs as your average man on the street. I've never done that myself, but I can see that their needs might be different. Every other sport hires medical specialists with experience of treating athletes from that particular sport. And yet people expect cycling teams to hire your average GP with no experience! DB's biggest problem was finding a doctor with the relevant experience, but without the baggage. His biggest mistake was simply not admitting that this couldn't be done.

 

[the sceptic]

Gert is just the best when it comes to treating saddle sores. No ordinary doctor could do it like him.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Gert is just the best when it comes to treating saddle sores. No ordinary doctor could do it like him.

Do you think saddle sores are the only cycling specific condition that may arise from an event as gruelling as a GT? Do you think that, like in every other sport, cycling has a need to hire medical staff with experience of that sport or is it different is some way? If so, how?

 

[King Of The Wolds]

but here I feel that I would consider Boogerd to be the least reliable witness of the three, because he has more to gain from lying than the anonymous confessor, and isn't faced with perjury charges if he lies like Leipheimer.

So would I, but I wouldn't necessarily put my house on either Leipheimer's or Boogerd's would you? Any yet many yesterday, took Leipheimer's as gospel, not even withstanding the fact that it's an as yet unconfirmed statement.

 

[MatParker117]

So would I, but I wouldn't necessarily put my house on either Leipheimer's or Boogerd's would you? Any yet many yesterday, took Leipheimer's as gospel, not even withstanding the fact that it's an as yet unconfirmed statement.

That's a question I'd like answered how did a dutch newspaper get a hold of a likely sealed document from the US?

 

[The Hitch]

My own personal opinion, which is all it is, is that Leinders was dirty and Brailsford knew this perfectly well.

Well if that is the case (and i get its just your opinion) but if that is the case then that would mean Bailsford has not been very truthful on the subject, and would justify the scepticisim that comes Sky's way.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

That's a question I'd like answered how did a dutch newspaper get a hold of a likely sealed document from the US?

oh no, these institutions are supposed to run with 100% integrity.

 

[will10]

oh no, these institutions are supposed to run with 100% integrity.

Do we know that they have? Or have they just filled in the gap in Levi's affadavit based on widespread speculation?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Do we know that they have? Or have they just filled in the gap in Levi's affadavit based on widespread speculation?

Not sure, but clearly the Rabobank team situation is somewhat different from some of the others: Sponsor is leaving, Rasmussen court case pending, perhaps somebody wants to push things along. After Armstrong then what?

 

[Pentacycle]

That's a question I'd like answered how did a dutch newspaper get a hold of a likely sealed document from the US?

The uncensored document is likely to be available within the next couple of months. Perhaps this newspaper have gotten exclusive access to a few pages which interested them most, ie about Leipheimer's Rabo days. I hope they're not making up the fact that they've seen part of the real document, otherwise it's just provocation.

 

[Froome19]

It is not like Sky threw a dart and it just happened by sheer chance to hit a dope doctor who was an expert at running a teamwide program. It is ridiculous that people can believe it was luck of the draw.

Johan Brailsford, lauded for his attention to detail, was too dumb to know who he was hiring? Come on.

Have you seen this thread?
http://velorooms.com/the-doping-section/the-dodgy-team-staff-thread-a-work-in-progress/

There was a pool of people in cycling who were available and those were the ones snapped up.

 

[Joachim]

Precisely. It'll take 15 years before lists like that will dwindle to nothing.

Even though it is motivated by PR, and the desire to avoid a scandal, Sky's stance on riders and staff with dodgy history will help this come about.

 

[Benotti69]

“I rode for that team for 15 years and I know him. It just can't be true. I do not believe it and the people who know him know that it is certainly 100 percent not true.”

Levi's supposed 'revelation' set tongues wagging yesterday. So what do people have to say about this 'revelation'?

I'm expecting an official comment from Bradley Wiggins with reasons as to why Sky sacked a seemingly innocent man.

No one is innocent, least of all anyone in Sky.

 

[will10]

Have you seen this thread?
http://velorooms.com/the-doping-section/the-dodgy-team-staff-thread-a-work-in-progress/

There was a pool of people in cycling who were available and those were the ones snapped up.

...except Brailsford proclaimed in 2009 when setting up Sky that all team doctors would come from outside cycling to prevent any suspicion. He then went against that policy to sign... Leinders, of all people. I suppose Fuentes and Ferrari were unavailable.

 

[workingclasshero]

Have you seen this thread?
http://velorooms.com/the-doping-section/the-dodgy-team-staff-thread-a-work-in-progress/

There was a pool of people in cycling who were available and those were the ones snapped up.

i can't explain with words how difficult it is to take someone seriously when they go under a username where they name themselves after their favourite rider.

kinell, what are you, 8?

...except Brailsford proclaimed in 2009 when setting up Sky that all team doctors would come from outside cycling to prevent any suspicion. He then went against that policy to sign... Leinders, of all people. I suppose Fuentes and Ferrari were unavailable.

yes, this is what's important. Brailsford and Sky thought they could dupe everyone into believing they could build a team with no doping history, didn't even fu.king try and now try to get rid of the evidence of their blatant lies as quietly as possible.

what a bunch of *** 'eds.

 

[The Hitch]

i can't explain with words how difficult it is to take someone seriously when they go under a username where they name themselves after their favourite rider.
.

So you arent named after Pantani?

 

[del1962]

So you arent named after Pantani?

No he is named after a song by a middle class boy from Liverpool, who incidentally was well doped up.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

No he is named after a song by a middle class boy from Liverpool, who incidentally was well doped up.

"Is Wiggins the best cyclist in the world? He's not even the best cyclist at Sky..."

 

[Dazed and Confused]

So you arent named after Pantani?

and in my timezone we have a winner

 

[The Hitch]

No he is named after a song by a middle class boy from Liverpool, who incidentally was well doped up.

You have any "evidence"?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

You have any "evidence"?

Have you heard Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

My own personal opinion, which is all it is, is that Leinders was dirty and Brailsford knew this perfectly well. Whether he hired him for his doping or not, is still to be determined. There seems to be an belief that the likes of Leinders and Ibarguren went to medical school and specialised in EPO and its uses and that they walk around their teams with a syringe permanently in their hands. That's not the case. They're doctors whom, in addition to the dirty stuff, apply genuine medical practice and, having experienced the non-doping, physiological and medical requirements of elite professional cyclists at first hand for years, will be expert in their treatment - more so than your next GP off the block. Unless, that is, you believe that athletes who ride 3000 miles in 3 weeks, at 40 km/h, have the same needs as your average man on the street. I've never done that myself, but I can see that their needs might be different. Every other sport hires medical specialists with experience of treating athletes from that particular sport. And yet people expect cycling teams to hire your average GP with no experience! DB's biggest problem was finding a doctor with the relevant experience, but without the baggage. His biggest mistake was simply not admitting that this couldn't be done.

This is naive and / or strawmanish (expect to hire an avg gp with no experience).

Experienced GPs who have worked for sports teams have enough experience to work with a pro cycling team. The human body doesn't differ just coz you're a pro cyclist - it reacts the same way to treatment and suffers the same maladies. Where do you think all the amateur cyclists go for treatment? Do you really think pros experience something different to an amateur?

Leinders was hired when?

Atfer Txema died. Txema, who had been ex-doper Millar's soigneur and again, close personal friend, back in the day. And in that same race, a number of Sky riders had to pull out.

Txema was in hospital. No GP is going to trump hospital and A&E care. Noone.

The saddle sore post above is due to the fact that that was one of the reasons given by Brailsford for the hiring of Leinders. Saddle sores. And riding in the heat.