Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[BroDeal]

And what about Nibali? You don't believe in him either?

Because no matter which way you put it, Wiggins was at Nibali's level or above in the mountains of the Tour 2009. Just like this year. Actually it's in the time trials where he made a big leap, but even there he profited from the fact that T. Martin and Cancellara sort of went AWOL this year, don't you think?

Oh, brother. Nibali was twenty-five years old in 2009. He was not a team leader. In 2012 he was twenty-eight, an age where he should be at his peak. He has developed as expected, and won the Vuelta when he was twenty-six. Wiggins went through that age period and we saw nothing.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

This is naive and / or strawmanish (expect to hire an avg gp with no experience).

Experienced GPs who have worked for sports teams have enough experience to work with a pro cycling team. The human body doesn't differ just coz you're a pro cyclist - it reacts the same way to treatment and suffers the same maladies. Where do you think all the amateur cyclists go for treatment? Do you really think pros experience something different to an amateur?

Leinders was hired when?

Atfer Txema died. Txema, who had been ex-doper Millar's soigneur and again, close personal friend, back in the day. And in that same race, a number of Sky riders had to pull out.

Txema was in hospital. No GP is going to trump hospital and A&E care. Noone.

The saddle sore post above is due to the fact that that was one of the reasons given by Brailsford for the hiring of Leinders. Saddle sores. And riding in the heat.

Where do amateur cyclists go? Is that a trick question? They go to the same place that the pros would go - the best doctor available to treat a specific condition, given your economic, social and geographical circumstances. To your average amateur, that might mean your local quack, to a professional cyclist, it might mean a high paid, experienced, specialist.

Re: experience required, you and I can argue all we like about whether cycling specific experience, or just elite sport experience is general is required, but the outcome is irrelevant. An employer, in any country, in any walk of life, in any business, value experience highly as a criteria for employment, almost above anything else. The more relevant, specific and in depth, the better. That's just a fact of life, and I've been on the receiving end myself, when I felt I was the best man for the job. I'm sure we can all agree that's how it works - and Sky have simply followed that principle.

 

[Joachim]

Oh, brother. Nibali was twenty-five years old in 2009. He was not a team leader. In 2012 he was twenty-eight, an age where he should be at his peak. He has developed as expected, and won the Vuelta when he was twenty-six. Wiggins went through that age period and we saw nothing.

It took Wiggins ten years of pro tour team road riding to grind himself up to a GT win. It took Nibali five. Which one of those looks more like 'coming out of nowhere'

 

[will10]

Sorry, what does the 'this' refer to?

This thread. There are more trees in this forest than just Leinders.

 

[JRanton]

A quick straw poll:

Is there anyone posting here who has an above 50% confidence that Sky and particularly the Tenerife gang are clean?

 

[Joachim]

You can't see the wood for the trees

 

[King Of The Wolds]

When you look at the SKY results of 2010 pre Leinders and compare them to the Leinders era you will see some distinction. Nothing to see here, move along.

The boys just had saddlesores.

Sky were average in 2010, good in 2011 and very good in 2012.

However, it's poor science in the absence of a control test, to claim a specific event is the reason. A control test doesn't exist, of course, because a large number of other factors changed - the arrival of other new coaches, managers and riders, for example. Tim Kerrison, for instance. How do we know which bit of improvement is associated with the arrival of each? And if Leinders is completely responsible, did he get better at doping in 2012 and is that the explanation as to why Sky improved further in this year?

 

[Benotti69]

How on earth will Cavendish manage without the help of the Sky Ferrari & Leinders doping programme? (Actually Fuentes is working with Sky too...you heard it here first)

2013 is set to be a disastrous year for Cav with zero wins!

Your knowledge of cycling really is embarrassing. Dr Ibarguren will ensure Cavendish has a great season. He worked wonders on Gilbert at Lotto then last year for Boonen at OPQS and now Cav should win a monument or 2.

 

[JRanton]

In GC terms Sky were extremely poor in 2010, very good in the second half of 2011 and ****ing amazing throughout 2012.

It basically all turned around after a Tenerife training camp just before the Bayern-Rundfahrt and Dauphine in 2011.

 

[Wiggo Warrior]

Tinman had an interesting theory on Froome's recovery from BV posted many pages back and not responded to by anyone.

Along the lines of ... maybe his body recovered from BV by producing lots of replacement red cells, which it continued to do when he was well.
I've been thinking about it, and wondering if any doctor could comment on the possibility? In my wilder moments of fanasty, I wonder if his blood readings ARE suspicious (for whatever reason), but that is put down to the BV recovery by the testers. Might be another reason Sky don't want to release the team blood data??

My last pondering before Xmas....have a good one guys!

If there is an adaptation to the bilharzia it is probably no longer a factor given that he was clear after the Vuelta at his six monthly check up and the body would most likely return to normal after the loss of stimulus.

Personally I think any beneficial adaptation is more likely to come from being born and raised at altitude and spending his childhood cycling around the Great Rift Valley area with his friends. If it's good enough for the Kenyan distance runners...

Have a good holiday everyone

 

[red_flanders]

Why get personal? This is not about me.

This is Sky hiring a Doctor who injects chemicals into then bloodstreams of young men.

Your anger should be directed at them.

Hog, if you don't have any evidence of this, and it seems you don't, you need to back it off a bit. Thanks.

 

[MatParker117]

Sky were average in 2010, good in 2011 and very good in 2012.

However, it's poor science in the absence of a control test, to claim a specific event is the reason. A control test doesn't exist, of course, because a large number of other factors changed - the arrival of other new coaches, managers and riders, for example. Tim Kerrison, for instance. How do we know which bit of improvement is associated with the arrival of each? And if Leinders is completely responsible, did he get better at doping in 2012 and is that the explanation as to why Sky improved further in this year?

Mark Cavendish was responsible for around 40% of Sky's wins in 2012 and would of won more if not for crashes (Boassen Hagen around 20%). They'll go backwards in 2013 because he's no longer with the team. You put the Manx Missile in any team and he'll take them to another level.

 

[will10]

If there is an adaptation to the bilharzia it is probably no longer a factor given that he was clear after the Vuelta at his six monthly check up and the body would most likely return to normal after the loss of stimulus.

Personally I think any beneficial adaptation is more likely to come from being born and raised at altitude and spending his childhood cycling around the Great Rift Valley area with his friends. If it's good enough for the Kenyan distance runners...

Have a good holiday everyone

Froome openly stated in the media that he'd had another relapse in spring of this year. He was minutes off the back on every race up to and including Romandie. Luckily everything was back to "normal" come the Dauphine and Le Tour.

 

[theyoungest]

Oh, brother. Nibali was twenty-five years old in 2009. He was not a team leader. In 2012 he was twenty-eight, an age where he should be at his peak. He has developed as expected, and won the Vuelta when he was twenty-six. Wiggins went through that age period and we saw nothing.

Nibali was very much a team leader at 25, together with Kreuziger (whom he outperformed, of course). A year later he podiumed in one GT and won another, you think that's because he made huge progress from one year to the next?

Of course we didn't see anything from Wiggins at that age, GT-wise. He was too busy winning Olympic medals on the track. You're either a track pursuiter or a GT contender, you can't be both at the same time. The guy weighed 75 kgs or something, how did you expect him to climb with the best?

 

[Joachim]

Your knowledge of cycling really is embarrassing. Dr Ibarguren will ensure Cavendish has a great season. He worked wonders on Gilbert at Lotto then last year for Boonen at OPQS and now Cav should win a monument or 2.

My post that you quoted was a joke. You took it seriously. How embarrassing.

(ps Ibarguren doesn't know **** compared to The Sky Toxico Triumverate of Leinders, Ferrari and Fuentes...

If he did then he would have transformed OPQS into Tour winners. Leinders & Co managed to do it with a team of donkeys and people from nowhere )

 

[JRanton]

Froome openly stated in the media that he'd had another relapse in spring of this year. He was minutes off the back on every race up to and including Romandie. Luckily everything was back to "normal" come the Dauphine and Le Tour.

Surely he doesn't have the cheek to pull the Bilharzia trick for a third season in a row?

He's my pick to get busted this year.

 

[Wiggo Warrior]

Froome openly stated in the media that he'd had another relapse in spring of this year. He was minutes off the back on every race up to and including Romandie. Luckily everything was back to "normal" come the Dauphine and Le Tour.

Romandie was when he came back after the bilharzia treatment, and a bad bout of flu, I believe he was off the bike totally for the back end of March and got back on 1st April. Not surprising his form wasn't there.

I can't think of many worse things for an endurance athlete than having a parasite munching on your red blood cells.

 

[Froome19]

Froome openly stated in the media that he'd had another relapse in spring of this year. He was minutes off the back on every race up to and including Romandie. Luckily everything was back to "normal" come the Dauphine and Le Tour.

He spent a couple of weeks of the bike (if I remember correct after Criterium International) whilst he administered the high intensity medication and then he came back and had finally built enough form up for the Dauphine with all effects of the Bilharzia gone.

 

[Froome19]

Surely he doesn't have the cheek to pull the Bilharzia trick for a third season in a row?

He's my pick to get busted this year.

This is laughable. I do not even believe that the Hog has had the audacity to claim that Froome's Bilharzia was faked. We summarised quite a while back that it is just a contributing factor for suspicion. His Bilharzia was picked up in fact by a blood test in Kenya when they were testing him in an out of competition test.

 

[JRanton]

This is laughable. I do not even believe that the Hog has had the audacity to claim that Froome's Bilharzia was faked. We summarised quite a while back that it is just a contributing factor for suspicion. His Bilharzia was picked up in fact by a blood test in Kenya when they were testing him in an out of competition test.

Who told you that?

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Paris-Nice

http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,24793_7552127,00.html

Romandie

http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,25179_7692582,00.html

Dauphine

http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,25669_7784970,00.html

In the interests of completeness, here's the team during Wiggo and Froome's career best performance at Le Tour...

http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,25885,00.html

And the team during, arguably, Porte's career best performance in Algarve...

http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,24704_7521144,00.html

Note, no Leinders.

 

[will10]

Romandie was when he came back after the bilharzia treatment, and a bad bout of flu, I believe he was off the bike totally for the back end of March and got back on 1st April. Not surprising his form wasn't there.

I can't think of many worse things for an endurance athlete than having a parasite munching on your red blood cells.

I agree with everything you've written.

So, how did he get back to such good form for the Dauphine, a mere five weeks after Romandie?

In the interests of completeness, here's the team during Wiggo and Froome's career best performance at Le Tour...

http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,25885,00.html

And the team during, arguably, Porte's career best performance in Algarve...

http://www.teamsky.com/article/0,27290,24704_7521144,00.html

Note, no Leinders.

Leinders was left off official team lists (eg. for the 2012 season) though wasn't he?

 

[King Of The Wolds]

A quick straw poll:

Is there anyone posting here who has an above 50% confidence that Sky and particularly the Tenerife gang are clean?

No, I'm not.

 

[Froome19]

A quote from Froome but I would find it far fetched that he would make up such a thing when it is so easy to track down

“I was at my brother's wedding in Kenya in late 2010 when the International Cycling Union (UCI) checked my blood passport. I immediately asked for all parameters when they discovered that I suffered from the disease. That was the reason why I sometimes was abnormally tired and was just average with Team Barloworld and my first year at Sky. These tiny worms affect your whole organism.

 

[will10]

A quote from Froome but I would find it far fetched that he would make up such a thing when it is so easy to track down

The boy's retics must be bouncing off the ceiling.