Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[will10]

like it or not but like 90% of riders under leinders never doped, even within rabo a select few got the special treatment. and cyclo cross I suppose is quite clean unless you can prove otherwise

I think you're probably right. However, 'like it or not' Nys dominated the cyclo-cross scene for years with Rabobank on his chest. He is not above suspicion in the slightest.

 

[Joachim]

How on earth will Cavendish manage without the help of the Sky Ferrari & Leinders doping programme? (Actually Fuentes is working with Sky too...you heard it here first)

2013 is set to be a disastrous year for Cav with zero wins!

 

[The Hitch]

Wiggins was already 4th in the Tour on Garmin, for the people who've forgotten. And he was climbing at the level of Nibali then as well.

Considering that was his first attempt at GC in a grand tour, it's normal he makes some improvement. He's still no Contador or Schleck, but they weren't there this year so suddenly he was one of the best climbers in the Tour.

He didn't need Geertje Leinders for that.

He finished 1 minute behind Contador on Verbier. Considering how doped up Contador was for that, then if you believe Wiggins was clean back that year (also the year he was Armstrongs number 1 disciple) then Wiggins very much is on the level of Contador and Schleck.

Ps- have you forgotten that Wiggins own argument for being great now is that the sport is clean. Explain then how he ends up flying so high in 1 of the most doped Tour de Frances, with known dopers in 1st 3rd 5th 6th and 8th positions.

 

[will10]

Wiggins was already 4th in the Tour on Garmin, for the people who've forgotten. And he was climbing at the level of Nibali then as well.

Considering that was his first attempt at GC in a grand tour, it's normal he makes some improvement. He's still no Contador or Schleck, but they weren't there this year so suddenly he was one of the best climbers in the Tour.

He didn't need Geertje Leinders for that.

Brad couldn't climb a railway bridge before the Giro 2009.

That said, he hasn't got a patch on Froome or Rogers.

 

[will10]

How on earth will Cavendish manage without the help of the Sky Ferrari & Leinders doping programme? (Actually Fuentes is working with Sky too...you heard it here first)

2013 is set to be a disastrous year for Cav with zero wins!

Your trolling isn't going to work if you keep overlooking important characters like Dr. Ibarguren.

 

[BroDeal]

Wiggins was already 4th in the Tour on Garmin, for the people who've forgotten. And he was climbing at the level of Nibali then as well.

Considering that was his first attempt at GC in a grand tour, it's normal he makes some improvement. He's still no Contador or Schleck, but they weren't there this year so suddenly he was one of the best climbers in the Tour.

He didn't need Geertje Leinders for that.

It was his first attempt after never cracking the top 100 in previous attempts.

That 2009 result was a joke. He was there because of a long team time trial that eliminated all the contenders on teams other than CSC, Astana, and Garmin. The course was soft. As multiple people there, including Vaughters, Astana controlled the pace and ithe Tour was ridden easy to not eliminate Armstrong. The mountain stages consisted of one climb at the end, except for the only decent stage to La Grand-Bornand, and Wiggins was dropped like a stone on that one. I predicted that Wiggins would be destroyed in 2010 because all it would take would be mountain stages that had multiple difficult climbs, which he had never showed he could handle. He was destroyed. Then at the end of 2011, he and Froome turn into ubermen. It was like watching Vino and Kash, just a mockery of the sport.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Your trolling isn't going to work if you keep overlooking important characters like Dr. Ibarguren.

Guess the ladd doesnt even know who mister Taus is.

Waste of time this fanboy.

Note: all the SKY pre Leinders 2010 results came of sprints or prologues. Suddenly, when the saddle sore man came in to place, the team rocked the boat in GT's and shorter stage tours. All a coincidence of course.

 

[theyoungest]

It was his first attempt after never cracking the top 100 in previous attempts.

That 2009 result was a joke. He was there because of a long team time trial that eliminated all the contenders on teams other than CSC, Astana, and Garmin. The course was soft. As multiple people there, including Vaughters, Astana controlled the pace and ithe Tour was ridden easy to not eliminate Armstrong. The mountain stages consisted of one climb at the end, except for the only decent stage to La Grand-Bornand, and Wiggins was dropped like a stone on that one. I predicted that Wiggins would be destroyed in 2010 because all it would take would be mountain stages that had multiple difficult climbs, which he had never showed he could handle. He was destroyed. Then at the end of 2011, he and Froome turn into ubermen. It was like watching Vino and Kash, just a mockery of the sport.

And what about Nibali? You don't believe in him either?

Because no matter which way you put it, Wiggins was at Nibali's level or above in the mountains of the Tour 2009. Just like this year. Actually it's in the time trials where he made a big leap, but even there he profited from the fact that T. Martin and Cancellara sort of went AWOL this year, don't you think?

Froome is a different story. Let's put it this way: that bilharzia virus sure limits your potential...

 

[will10]

And what about Nibali? You don't believe in him either?

Because no matter which way you put it, Wiggins was at Nibali's level or above in the mountains of the Tour 2009. Just like this year. Actually it's in the time trials where he made a big leap, but even there he profited from the fact that T. Martin and Cancellara sort of went AWOL this year, don't you think?

Froome is a different story. Let's put it this way: that bilharzia virus sure limits your potential...

Again you are plucking bits of the story that fit and ignoring the rest.

Nibali was talked about as a future GT rider for years and years, right back to his Fassa Bortolo days. The guy could always climb and many people would recognise his progression as "normal". I'm not saying he's clean, but he's a couple of notches below Brad on the suspicion scale, whilst Froomey is of course off the chart.

 

[Froome19]

Shock horror! A cyclist defending their chosen doctor!

I think it's time we asked the mods to restore from backup tape the 2002 version of this forum with a search and replace on USPS with Sky!

Personally I'm shocked. First and foremost we should be fans of cycling not one team. After the 'Armstrong Affair' I cannot believe fans of cycling want to give Sky a pass on this one.

If Sky were called 'El Skyo Espana' you'd be baying for their blood in the streets of Seville.

Cycling is the loser today.

Yeah because that would be the first time a pro cyclist has said anything idiotic.

So Het Nieuwsblad ask Nys about the Rabobank scandal - what are you expecting he'll say? I confess, I've been doping with Leinders for years, strip me of all my titles?

It's called omertà and it's here to stay.

Why involve himself. It just makes him look stupid if something about Leinders does come about? He can easily dismiss the question and give some vague response rather than a whole hearted backing of Leinders. Now he has people like the Hog claiming he is doping. What would have been the point of that if not for the fact that he wanted to express his view on the matter?

How on earth will Cavendish manage without the help of the Sky Ferrari & Leinders doping programme? (Actually Fuentes is working with Sky too...you heard it here first)

2013 is set to be a disastrous year for Cav with zero wins!

I doubt there are many people here who would say that outside of the Tour squad there were many riders who doped on Sky. Cav I highly doubt got involved in that.

 

[will10]

Why involve himself. It just makes him look stupid if something about Leinders does come about? He can easily dismiss the question and give some vague response rather than a whole hearted backing of Leinders. Now he has people like the Hog claiming he is doping. What would have been the point of that if not for the fact that he wanted to express his view on the matter?

Involve himself? Nys rode for Rabobank at the time in question. Little wonder Het Nieuwsblad would ask him about his relationship with Leinders, what he saw during his time there etc.

Of course Nys gave the answer a clean rider would give. He also gave the answer that a dirty rider would give. I love the way he races and for some reason never found his years of domination of the CX scene as boring as say Armstrong's stranglehold on the Tour or Schumacher's F1 dominance. What I am saying is taking Nys at his word is naive, considering that supremacy.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

And what about Nibali? You don't believe in him either?

Because no matter which way you put it, Wiggins was at Nibali's level or above in the mountains of the Tour 2009. Just like this year. Actually it's in the time trials where he made a big leap, but even there he profited from the fact that T. Martin and Cancellara sort of went AWOL this year, don't you think?

Froome is a different story. Let's put it this way: that bilharzia virus sure limits your potential...

You want to take your level of idiocracy to this level? Come on.

Not to say Nibbles is the second coming but he has shown talent, from the beginning. Compare that to a prologue specialist and an alien who 15 months ago was on the verge of leaving team Sky, suddenly recuperated of bilharzia and almost won his first GT if it wasnt for Cobo.

 

[ebandit]

hear hear

He jabs young cyclists with syringes topped full of EPO and extracts then refuses their blood. Leinders should be named Good Samaritan of the year.

Its just hearsay I tell you.

hoggie if it's not hearsay.............perhaps you would oblige with a link

i may not have your 'photographic memory' but i don't recall this detail

from info released into the public domain

 

[coinneach]

Froome is a different story. Let's put it this way: that bilharzia virus sure limits your potential...

Tinman had an interesting theory on Froome's recovery from BV posted many pages back and not responded to by anyone.

Along the lines of ... maybe his body recovered from BV by producing lots of replacement red cells, which it continued to do when he was well.
I've been thinking about it, and wondering if any doctor could comment on the possibility? In my wilder moments of fanasty, I wonder if his blood readings ARE suspicious (for whatever reason), but that is put down to the BV recovery by the testers. Might be another reason Sky don't want to release the team blood data??

My last pondering before Xmas....have a good one guys!

 

[will10]

Tinman had an interesting theory on Froome's recovery from BV posted many pages back and not responded to by anyone.

Along the lines of ... maybe his body recovered from BV by producing lots of replacement red cells, which it continued to do when he was well.
I've been thinking about it, and wondering if any doctor could comment on the possibility? In my wilder moments of fanasty, I wonder if his blood readings ARE suspicious (for whatever reason), but that is put down to the BV recovery by the testers. Might be another reason Sky don't want to release the team blood data??

My last pondering before Xmas....have a good one guys!

We've been speculating about that since his infamous Vuelta performance and subsequent detailing of his illness in the media. Froome's biological passport data sure must make for interesting reading.

 

[Joachim]

No, Gonzalez was a team soigneur who died in somewhat mysterious fashion at the 2010 Vuleta. A number of riders also fell ill from a separate virus.

Brailsford used those incidents as justification for hiring Geert Leinders (that they needed an experienced doctor who had worked in cycling). Despicable really if you ask me. Bruyneel/Armstrong levels.

Here is what Brailsford actually said:

“When someone dies on your team and you feel you’re putting riders at risk… for all we knew the riders could have had the same thing.

“We sat down and realised that as a group of people we did not know enough about looking after people in extreme heat, with extreme fatigue. We were making calls like ‘no, on you go mate’.”

It's only despicable if in fact Leinders was hired to dope riders, otherwise it is an entirely rational decision for a new and inexperienced team to make.

See, it is a one-sided bet for you and all the other people voicing accusations of doping at Sky. If they are exposed as dopers, you can rightly feel justified in your critiscisms. But, you also know that you can never be exposed and held to account if you are wrong, because innocence cannot be proved. You can't prove a negative.

Hence the need for something a little more concrete before you start voicing what amounts to opinion which include words like 'despicable'.

 

[theyoungest]

Again you are plucking bits of the story that fit and ignoring the rest.

Nibali was talked about as a future GT rider for years and years, right back to his Fassa Bortolo days. The guy could always climb and many people would recognise his progression as "normal". I'm not saying he's clean, but he's a couple of notches below Brad on the suspicion scale, whilst Froomey is of course off the chart.

This was about the influence of mr. Leinders on Bradley Wiggins. So I humbly argue that he was already at this level of climbing 3 years ago, while on Garmin. Subsequently you continue on the talent of mr. Nibali, suggesting that you don't know what I mean. I say he was already comparable to Nibali 3 years ago, as a climber. Without the help of that famed doping doctor from Flanders.

You want to take your level of idiocracy to this level? Come on.

Not to say Nibbles is the second coming but he has shown talent, from the beginning. Compare that to a prologue specialist and an alien who 15 months ago was on the verge of leaving team Sky, suddenly recuperated of bilharzia and almost won his first GT if it wasnt for Cobo.

Lol, don't use words you don't know the meaning of. Maybe you mean 'idiocy'.

As for the rest of your well argued exposé: see above for the reply.

 

[ChrisE]

Ha ha, touché!
Certainly ruffled old Hoggies feathers.
Defender of Omerta, indeed.

To be fair he is still wiping the dirt off his knees from when JV came to the forum.

 

[will10]

Here is what Brailsford actually said:

“When someone dies on your team and you feel you’re putting riders at risk… for all we knew the riders could have had the same thing.

“We sat down and realised that as a group of people we did not know enough about looking after people in extreme heat, with extreme fatigue. We were making calls like ‘no, on you go mate’.”

It's only despicable if in fact Leinders was hired to dope riders, otherwise it is an entirely rational decision for a new and inexperienced team to make.

See, it is a one-sided bet for you and all the other people voicing accusations of doping at Sky. If they are exposed as dopers, you can rightly feel justified in your critiscisms. But, you also know that you can never be exposed and held to account if you are wrong, because innocence cannot be proved. You can't prove a negative.

Hence the need for something a little more concrete before you start voicing what amounts to opinion which include words like 'despicable'.

As you're fully aware this isn't 266 pages of "Sky hired Leinders -> doping".

 

[Joachim]

As you're fully aware this isn't 266 pages of "Sky hired Leinders -> doping".

Sorry, what does the 'this' refer to?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Lol, don't use words you don't know the meaning of. Maybe you mean 'idiocy'.

As for the rest of your well argued exposé: see above for the reply.

Semantics, and for the rest again bs. Apologists come in all sizes.

 

[JRanton]

Frankly I would be shocked if Team Sky didn't have ex-pro riders on its support staff who are also ex-dopers.

Sky's zero tolerance approach may be hypocritical, it may be more about PR than anything else, but saying 'you won't get a job with us if you are a known doper, and if you are subsequently exposed you are sacked' is certainly better than doing nothing.

Getting people out of the system forever is the way forward.

If there really was a zero tolerance approach there would hardly be anyone left on the team...

Can I ask why you're seemingly so confident that Sky are clean?

 

[thehog]

...and what of our good friend Mr. Froome? How does one explain that science experiment?!

WE need to call him the "ET hypothesises" in this argument. Whilst one explains Wiggins "natural" improvement similar comparison does not apply to the Froome phenomenon.

Now we know about Lienders the dots clearly join to those "suspect" performances of Sky very neatly.


For simplicity; If "Wiggins" is Y and "Froome is X then X is not equal to Y thus "doping". Period.

Very true.

 

[ebandit]

sadly

Very true.

replying to ones own post...............very sad

 

[Joachim]

If there really was a zero tolerance approach there would hardly be anyone left on the team...

Possibly, and the same would be true for many other teams were they to do anything. Do you think Sky's (sham or otherwise) zero-tolerance policy is going to make riders and other professionals with a doping past more likely or less likely to respond to Team Sky job vacancies?

Can I ask why you're seemingly so confident that Sky are clean?

I'm not confident that they are clean.