Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dear Wiggo]

Hold on, Wiggo. The basic point is whether or not 'track cyclists' are some lesser breed than roadies - presumably so that Wiggins IP domination can be dismissed as evidence of future road potential.

No, it isn't. I know forums are hard, but try to follow along, ok? Instead of introducing a bunch of irrelevant to the current conversation points, recognise what is currently being debated. Specifically:

Yep the big money is on the road. However, that doesn't equate to them being superior sportsmen to track riders. There are a number of current top pros who gravitated to road from the track. Cavendish being just one of them. He road the boards in Beijing 2008 and was the only member of the GB track squad to return without a medal. A bit of a simplistic point, I know, but illustrative nonetheless.

This is being provided as an example of a good roadie not making it on the track - the only GB rider to not medal.

EVERYTHING else you said may be true and relevant - in another discussion - but if you ignore what I am responding to, you can add as much fluff as you like but it starts to look disingenuous.

Because it is hard for you to follow an online conversation, I will reiterate:

Jokequim's post above, about Cavendish not medaling on the track in 2008 IS NOT a good example of trackies being as good as or better than roadies. The end.

 

[MatParker117]

How is a court decision that the management team of rabo is accomplish of whereabouts fraud a "rumour" or "tenuous?

The denial in here is amazing.

Quite simply: They were fully aware of Leinders past.

The idea that you hire a doctor and somehow don't know he was part of the management team of one of the most successful teams is ridiculous. And you certainly look into doping cases a doctor was involved with. It's beyond belief you simply hire a doctor no questions asked.

When was the decision issued?

 

[Joachim]

It illustrates your depth of knowledge. The reason Cavendish didn't medal is because Wiggins rode like a C grader in their event, the madison.

Yes I know. I was there.

If you look really closely you'll see I qualified the point with the word 'simplistic'. I'm sure you know what that word means.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Yes I know. I was there.

If you look really closely you'll see I qualified the point with the word 'simplistic'. I'm sure you know what that word means.

It means "simple". I think what you needed was something closer to "irrelevant" or more simply, "wrong".

 

[thehog]

When was the decision issued?

Col de Peyresourde in 2007

Only the blind missed it. The most ridiculous display of drug use since Al Pacino in Scareface.

An epic stage of circus mania brought to you by Dr. Lienders and Bruyneel/Dr. Ferrari/Fuentes.

 

[Joachim]

It means "simple". I think what you needed was something closer to "irrelevant" or more simply, "wrong".

Of course, you pointing out that Cavendish lost the Madison because of Wiggo just adds to my point. (Wiggo being a roadie). You probably didn't even realise you were doing it.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Of course, you pointing out that Cavendish lost the Madison because of Wiggo just adds to my point. (Wiggo being a roadie). You probably didn't even realise you were doing it.

... no, Wiggins lost because he couldn't be assed. In that same year, with the same partner, he was madison world champion.

It's still a poor example.

And I agree, as I already raised the point previously: Wiggins is an average fish in a tiny pond. That's the only reason he won any IP medals. And the 2008 WC meet with Hayles getting pinged, the 2nd of the Dutchies getting pinged, the 1st of the Dutchies pwning Wiggins by a second in qualifying but going 20 seconds slower at the Olympics all lead me to suspect doping is rife in track as it is on road, amen.

 

[Joachim]

GB's most succesful Olympian. TdF champion. Olympic TT champion.

Yeah, that's pretty average.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

GB's most succesful Olympian. TdF champion. Olympic TT champion.

Yeah, that's pretty average.

Lance Armstrong, the world's winningest Tour rider ever.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I'll keep playing your petty game because you're temporarily amusing, but no, Wiggins lost because he couldn't be assed. In that same year, with the same partner, he was madison world champion.

There is an extra round in both the IP and the TP in the OGs compared to the World Champs. If you look at Wiggo's IP and TP performances in Beijing, he was very consistent at a very high performance level (~4:16/4:17 for IP; ~3:54/3:55 for TP) so each of these extra rounds would have adversely affected his fatigue levels for the Madison relative to the WCs, as they were at or close to maximal efforts.

On a general point, the level of Wiggo's opposition on the track is not hugely relevant in isolation. What is much more significant is his margin of superiority over the other top contenders. In power terms, he was a country mile better, even over Brad McGee in Athens. Wiggo was 2.5s faster in 1st qualifying and then 4s faster in the final (though McGee doubtless was only going through the motions in the final stages). This is a big margin of superiority over a man who was in the same year a more than creditable performer on the road at the highet level.

Thus, in conclusion, Wiggo didn't have much to beat in the IP, but everyone else had a massive obstacle to overcome.

 

[Joachim]

Dear Wiggo, that you even think that the comment you have just made has any value whatsoever is testament to why very few people here bother to engage with you.

I'm annoyed with myself for allowing you to draw me into your imbecility. By all means, have the last word, but I won't be responding to it because it won't be visible to me.

 

[Franklin]

When was the decision issued?

2 july 2008
Rasmussen versus Rabobank
Court Utrecht (kantongerecht)
Case nr. 557845

So yes, that's quite a bit before the hiring at Sky

 

[Dear Wiggo]

There is an extra round in both the IP and the TP in the OGs compared to the World Champs. If you look at Wiggo's IP and TP performances in Beijing, he was very consistent at a very high performance level (~4:16/4:17 for IP; ~3:54/3:55 for TP) so each of these extra rounds would have adversely affected his fatigue levels for the Madison relative to the WCs, as they were at or close to maximal efforts.

I don't think it's that much different, given they complete the event over 2 days for both events at Olys vs 1 day for WC. And his times were not much slower at worlds vs Olympics, and they were later in the year, after a pretty full season on the road to help develop his aerobic base vs March. WC did give them an extra day before the madison, I'll give you that.

For me, Cavendish's annoyance at Wiggins is the biggest tell. I don't think he was only annoyed for the lack of a medal to take home.

On a general point, the level of Wiggo's opposition on the track is not hugely relevant in isolation. What is much more significant is his margin of superiority over the other top contenders. In power terms, he was a country mile better, even over Brad McGee in Athens. Wiggo was 2.5s faster in 1st qualifying and then 4s faster in the final (though McGee doubtless was only going through the motions in the final stages). This is a big margin of superiority over a man who was in the same year a more than creditable performer on the road at the highet level.

Except for 2008 WC, where, as I mentioned 2 posts ago, someone - or was it a noone? - beat him in qualifying by a second, while the noone's team mate, and Wiggins team mate, were ejected / suspended for blood anomalies...

 

[xcleigh]

I knew someone would pipe up with this. Joachim's point was Cavendish rode the track but did no good coz even though he's a top roadie sprinter, track riders are as or more elite. Did you miss that?

But both points are missing the point: it was a team race, and you're very much dependent on the other rider as a team. Cavendish missed out because Wiggins rode poorly, NOT because trackies are as good as or better than roadies.

I also think you'll find it's more Wiggins partied hard post-medal winning IP rides. I don't think Cavendish is that dumb that he'd be upset at Wiggins if it was justifiable to ride a couple of IPs and then have nothing left in the tank.

Makes even more of a mockery for Wiggins' 2012 season if that really was the reason.

Anyway, it continues to suggest with the use of such language as "C grade " rider that somehow Wiggins is an average rider at best. This I would suggest is completely disingenuous. But it does conveniently fit the dopeboi (see what I've done there) narrative.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Anyway, it continues to suggest with the use of such language as "C grade " rider that somehow Wiggins is an average rider at best. This I would suggest is completely disingenuous. But it does conveniently fit the dopeboi (see what I've done there) narrative.

Performance appraisals are always going to be subjective, but for my money, Wiggins WAS average, on the road, pre-2009.

 

[Franklin]

Can we just cut this nonsense?

Yes, being a great track rider isn't proof someone can be a great road rider. But the other way around it's also not a barrier.

Wiggins is now one of those riders with a truly great palmares.

Now the whole issue is.. how did he get there? We can only look at that with known data/facts. A mud slinging match about Wiggins as a track rider and how he screwed over Cavendish is not relevant at all.

We should focus on Wiggins training scheme and build up. There are red flags in the Pico del Teide scheme*. There are blood red flags in the Leinders affair**.


* Riding up the Pico is simply not the way you should train(Could be simple media mythicism). Short altitude stays are questionable in it's effect... worse, they are staple of the Ferrari masking scheme.
** The lingering question: Why hire Leinders? Today there came out more news how dirty this guy is.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Except for 2008 WC, where, as I mentioned 2 posts ago, someone - or was it a noone? - beat him in qualifying by a second, while the noone's team mate, and Wiggins team mate, were ejected / suspended for blood anomalies...

That would be the year that Wiggo won the final by 8 seconds, if memory serves.

I can't track down Wiggo's qualifying time in 2008 WCs, but he rode 4:18 in the final, which is 3 seconds down on his best, on a fast track in Manchester. I suspect he had plenty in reserve...

 

[will10]

That would be the year that Wiggo won the final by 8 seconds, if memory serves.

I can't track down Wiggo's qualifying time in 2008 WCs, but he rode 4:18 in the final, which is 3 seconds down on his best, on a fast track in Manchester. I suspect he had plenty in reserve...

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/track/2008/mar08/wtc08/?id=results/men_ip

Huizenga then went onto only record a 4.37 at the Olympics later that year after a drastic positional change (strange that someone would alter something that was clearly working very well five months earlier).

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I am not saying Wiggi didn't train a lot but in terms of talent I am pretty sure I am right about his natural talent.

With regards to the Froomster and the Chicken, do you know what is meant by 'the Chicken'?

wiggins talent is undeniable. his track records speak for themselves. look at boardman, who was close to winning duaphinee in a period where all his opponents were doped to the moon and boardman never dropped any weight unlike wiggins. and it's not as if wiggins is a super rider all of a sudden. he's severly limited as a climber and it shows all the time.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Olympic golds dont pay the mortgage. Simple.

in britain they do. ask chris hoy

 

[Joachim]

I have been given Wiggins new book by my wife's aunt, for Christmas. I didn't ask for it, the other one was sh1te.

Just read the first chapter. Very interesting.

 

[the sceptic]

wiggins talent is undeniable. his track records speak for themselves. look at boardman, who was close to winning duaphinee in a period where all his opponents were doped to the moon and boardman never dropped any weight unlike wiggins. and it's not as if wiggins is a super rider all of a sudden. he's severly limited as a climber and it shows all the time.

Yes it certainly showed when he was struggling to keep up with the grupetto and was finishing grand tours in the 100s. that seems pretty normal.

 

[the sceptic]

I have been given Wiggins new book by my wife's aunt, for Christmas. I didn't ask for it, the other one was ****e.

Just read the first chapter. Very interesting.

Hope its more interesting than your trolling

 

[ebandit]

thanks Ryo

wiggins talent is undeniable. his track records speak for themselves. look at boardman, who was close to winning duaphinee in a period where all his opponents were doped to the moon and boardman never dropped any weight unlike wiggins. and it's not as if wiggins is a super rider all of a sudden. he's severly limited as a climber and it shows all the time.

thanks! Ryo................wow! 10k posts..............Your input is appreciated

keep ruffling forum members feathers

 

[red_flanders]

wiggins talent is undeniable. his track records speak for themselves. look at boardman, who was close to winning duaphinee in a period where all his opponents were doped to the moon and boardman never dropped any weight unlike wiggins. and it's not as if wiggins is a super rider all of a sudden. he's severly limited as a climber and it shows all the time.

Ignoring the massive change in his abilities from before 2009, I would tend to agree that he was limited in that year..for a top contender.

In the 2012 Tour he showed few such limitations.