Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Hugh Januss]

No he (possibly) tried to cover up doping. If he did try, he failed. It came out in ways he had no power to stop, despite trying.

Arguably it came out only because LA was totally out of control and thought he could get away with anything, forever. Would all this have come out if Lance had been a "nice guy" ala Indurain? If he would have hired Landis, or not narced on Tyler, if he would not have bullied so many people?
McQuack didn't "possibly try to cover up doping", he did cover up doping, successfully, and for a very long time.

 

[Joachim]

Yes, that is a thought that has occurred to me too. I think it's a point that has some merit.

However, serious allegations came out before Landis got busted in 2006. Remember the headline in L'Equipe straight after Armstrong retired in 2005? Remember LA Confidentiel, published in 2004? Remember the SCA case in 2005? Again, before Landis.

McQuack couldn't cover up any of these, although he may have tried to discredit them.

Of course, it took the Landis confession to get some action, however, arguably that may have just been the final straw.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

No he (possibly) tried to cover up doping. If he did try, he failed. It came out in ways he had no power to stop, despite trying.

He didn't fail in the short term. Blatant doping by Armstrong, went under the official radar for years.

All Pat needs is a new hero to pin the new 'tour of redemption' badge to now. Doesn't matter to him if something murky is revealed later, as long as he gets re-elected before it's revealed.

Lots of people seem to be assuming that Pat has an interest in the long term good of the sport. It's a very flawed assumption IMO.

Pats actions have consistently prioritised short term PR gains over the long term credibility of cycling. Why would he suddenly adopt a long term view now he is approaching retirement?

That being said, I haven't absolutely made my mind up about sky, but Pats enthusiasm for them is part of a disturbing overall picture.

 

[Joachim]

I think Pat is clinging on for dear life, desperately hoping to avoid the pong of Armstrong's donations resulting in criminal proceedings.

 

[red_flanders]

He isn't just talking to the participants in The Clinic.

He is under attack for doing nothing to combat doping in cycling. He is defending himself by saying he has done something (in fact he is saying it is the only thing he does). Therefore he has to say that cycling is cleaner now, otherwise he will be giving in to his critics.....and that in turn means saying that he thinks the TdF champion is clean.

We simply disagree that he has to say this to be credible. In my mind, and many others when he moves from "this is what we've done" to "now cycling is clean" he loses all credibility. It's an utter lack of imagination and integrity on his part that IMO dooms him to the "corner" he's put himself into.

No he (possibly) tried to cover up doping. If he did try, he failed. It came out in ways he had no power to stop, despite trying.

Between he and Hein they've been doing all they can to cover up doping for over 2 decades. Pretty successful mostly, in that they still remain in power. The clear goal.

 

[taiwan]

Doping is doping.

Dope bigtime, dope smalltime. You are still a doper.

What you are suggesting would be like a murderer saying to a jury:

"Yes, ok, I murdered him"

"But only a little bit"

Some murders are easier to cover up than others. Anyway this is a side point.

 

[Joachim]

We simply disagree that he has to say this to be credible. In my mind, and many others when he moves from "this is what we've done" to "now cycling is clean" he loses all credibility. It's an utter lack of imagination and integrity on his part that IMO dooms him to the "corner" he's put himself into.

He has an utter lack of integrity! Which is why we cannot set any store by what he says. Do you not see that he is under the greatest pressure now, as a result of the Armstong saga? He is defending accusations of doing nothing to fight doping by saying that fighting doping has been his sole preoccupation during his tenure. Do you really expect him to say " I've been President for X years and all I've done is fight doping and nothing has changed".?? Of course he won't, because that would be an admission of total failure in the job description that he has defined for himself.

The guy is clutching on to any last straw he can. One of those straws is whoever happened to win this years tour.

Between he and Hein they've been doing all they can to cover up doping for over 2 decades. Pretty successful mostly, in that they still remain in power. The clear goal.

This is true. But now he's fighting for his life.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Dope to the limits and you will be fine. Who ever invented the 133 points rule in the bio? Specialists concider 95-100 very suspicious of doping...

Dr Michael Ashenden. It uses a formula of hgb and retic%.

It's this easy to beat. Look at the extremes you have to go to to get 133:

 

[simo1733]

Dr Michael Ashenden. It uses a formula of hgb and retic%.

It's this easy to beat. Look at the extremes you have to go to to get 133:

For those of you who think that Brailsford/Wiggins are at the centre of a Lance style sophisticated doping organisation, what should be their exit strategy.
Obviously dominating the tour fir the next 7/8 yrs might not work out too well in the long term.

 

[thehog]

For those of you who think that Brailsford/Wiggins are at the centre of a Lance style sophisticated doping organisation, what should be their exit strategy.
Obviously dominating the tour fir the next 7/8 yrs might not work out too well in the long term.

After the Tour and prior to the RD thats exactly what they were talking about.

Now it's morphed into the Giro and maybe a double.

It's the same story just different players and the different fans defending the same BS.

 

[Joachim]

Professional bike racing teams talking about trying to win races.

Shock horror!

 

[Franklin]

Nobody in Brailsford's position can be that naive.

This is the huge red flag that should let every fan scratch their head.. why do they give this guy a pass.

Anyone who in 2009 plans to win a GT clean is either a clown or a fullblown liar.

Problem is we already know for a fact DB is a liar. Namely the extremely insincere hiring policies.

Anyone who flat out lies about a doping doctor has no place in cycling.

 

[Bexon30]

This is the huge red flag that should let every fan scratch their head.. why do they give this guy a pass.

Anyone who in 2009 plans to win a GT clean is either a clown or a fullblown liar.

Problem is we already know for a fact DB is a liar. Namely the extremely insincere hiring policies.

Anyone who flat out lies about a doping doctor has no place in cycling.

Right it's took a while to read this thread but I'm still at a loss. I would be willing to change my opinion of SKY if some could explain the following query...
2008 Tour Chris Froome finished 12th in the white Jersey competition a full 2 hours behind winner Andy Schlek and runner up Nibali. Who couldn't live with him when he danced on the pedals this year. He finished 84th overall a massive 2 hours + well off the pace with mountain goats like Eric Zable finishing massively ahead in terms of time.
I can only come to one conclusion he did this clean and yes he was 23.
No amount of marginal gains can change my stance so what was the miracle...?

 

[ultimobici]

Right it's took a while to read this thread but I'm still at a loss. I would be willing to change my opinion of SKY if some could explain the following query...
2008 Tour Chris Froome finished 12th in the white Jersey competition a full 2 hours behind winner Andy Schlek and runner up Nibali. Who couldn't live with him when he danced on the pedals this year. He finished 84th overall a massive 2 hours + well off the pace with mountain goats like Eric Zable finishing massively ahead in terms of time.
I can only come to one conclusion he did this clean and yes he was 23.
No amount of marginal gains can change my stance so what was the miracle...?

He was a second year pro, riding as a domestique, on a Pro-Conti team that had a wild card entry to the Tour. What do you expect?

 

[taiwan]

For those of you who think that Brailsford/Wiggins are at the centre of a Lance style sophisticated doping organisation, what should be their exit strategy.
Obviously dominating the tour fir the next 7/8 yrs might not work out too well in the long term.

Best guess is that Wiggins podiums at the Giro then works for Froome at the Tour. Froome may win the Tour and continue for years as a contender, but I think Wiggins will gradually tone it down. Froome could get caught and thrown under the bus by the team. I think Super-Wiggins was a tie in with the Olympics and the job is basically done, time to get out.

 

[Bexon30]

He was a second year pro, riding as a domestique, on a Pro-Conti team that had a wild card entry to the Tour. What do you expect?

And now he's the best in the high mountains....??
Where was the natural talent back in 2008?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

He was a second year pro, riding as a domestique, on a Pro-Conti team that had a wild card entry to the Tour. What do you expect?

Maybe just a tiny bit of the enormous talent he is showing since the last 16 months? Or, was he already victim of the bilharzia back then?

For instance, his talent for TT'ing didn't quite come to the surface back then, while a Nibali - same generation - did show something in two Grand Tours that year. Four years later Froome crushes Nibali with ease. That could lead to questions.

 

[Ferminal]

Right it's took a while to read this thread but I'm still at a loss. I would be willing to change my opinion of SKY if some could explain the following query...
2008 Tour Chris Froome finished 12th in the white Jersey competition a full 2 hours behind winner Andy Schlek and runner up Nibali. Who couldn't live with him when he danced on the pedals this year. He finished 84th overall a massive 2 hours + well off the pace with mountain goats like Eric Zable finishing massively ahead in terms of time.
I can only come to one conclusion he did this clean and yes he was 23.
No amount of marginal gains can change my stance so what was the miracle...?

He was only 3 minutes behind Schumacher in the final ITT.

 

[Bexon30]

He was only 3 minutes behind Schumacher in the final ITT.

Only 11.41 slower on the Alp D'Huez stage. Lets see how far off he is this year come the second ascent. My guess is he won't be 20 odd minutes back.

 

[Ferminal]

Yeh he did a 51'12" in 2008, should be sub-40' this year.

 

[pmcg76]

He was a second year pro, riding as a domestique, on a Pro-Conti team that had a wild card entry to the Tour. What do you expect?

That is a rather lame defence considering Juan Mauricio Soler was a second year pro, on the same Pro-Conti team that had a wild card entry to the 2007 Tour. He finished 11th and won the KOM jersey in his first Tour.

 

[Ferminal]

Andy Schleck did pretty well in his first GT as a 22 year old.

 

[will10]

He was a second year pro, riding as a domestique, on a Pro-Conti team that had a wild card entry to the Tour. What do you expect?

There are races other than the Tour de France. Before the Vuelta 2011 there was not one performance from Froome that indicated he could dominate a GT. No-one has ever shown so few previous results, prior to standing on a GT podium.

 

[ultimobici]

That is a rather lame defence considering Juan Mauricio Soler was a second year pro, on the same Pro-Conti team that had a wild card entry to the 2007 Tour. He finished 11th and won the KOM jersey in his first Tour.

The same Soler who had 2 full European seasons under his belt by the start of 2008, not to mention being more than 2 years older? Add in that Froome's 2007 season was predominantly in SA & other non-European races, and it's evident that you're comparing two riders at different stages if their development and, more significantly, ones who'd have been viewed differently by their team.

 

[Bexon30]

There are races other than the Tour de France. Before the Vuelta 2011 there was not one performance from Froome that indicated he could dominate a GT. No-one has ever shown so few previous results, prior to standing on a GT podium.

Exactly +1.

No steady rise just boom... Best in the mountains!!
Next year will prove telling if Froome starts to take control then questions need to be asked.