Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[AcademyCC]

Where was the, "I love that I can do my job, get paid, and be home for Kath and the kids as much as I like" back then?

I can understand how he will be saying that. I wouldnt. Part of me thinks "****ing hell what a complete minefield for the yellow jersey"

I want to believe that we have something left in our sport. I fear we have nothing.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Where was the, "I love that I can do my job, get paid, and be home for Kath and the kids as much as I like" back then?

I can understand how he will be saying that. I wouldnt. Part of me thinks "****ing hell what a complete minefield for the yellow jersey"

I want to believe that we have something left in our sport. I fear we have nothing.

He didn't say that - that's my point.

I love cycling. Rode a lot this month, my 4th week of consistent training ending today. Fresh air, great scenery, couple of rides / catch ups with others, but mostly me and my bike and power meter.

And that is the sport in a nutshell. Has nothing to do with heroes or professional contracts or the Tour de France.

That will never die, regardless of how selfish and self-centered the top tier may be.

 

[thehog]

So has Chris Carmichael. Only hacks attempt to support their opinions by lauding their accomplishments. Each analysis stands on its own merit. Plenty of "accomplished" people use their position to advance ridiculous theories.

Further, as a statistician, when I hear people citing R-squared values as "proof" of anything, I immediately know they're either a) largely uneducated in statistical analysis or b) full of sh!t.

Made me laugh out loud!

Thank-you.

 

[AcademyCC]

Hopefully itll keep surviving. I would just love cycling to get beyond the surviving stage. Keep pushing SKY but we need to remove Pat McQuaid. Don't mean to divert attention but thats were the actions at. All being well, a dead man walking.

 

[The Hitch]

Where was the, "I love that I can do my job, get paid, and be home for Kath and the kids as much as I like" back then?

I can understand how he will be saying that. I wouldnt. Part of me thinks "****ing hell what a complete minefield for the yellow jersey"

I want to believe that we have something left in our sport. I fear we have nothing.

Something vs nothing does not stand on bradley wiggins.

 

[BroDeal]

2. I've served as a consultant to national champions, world champions, and world record holders in the pursuit (and team pursuit), and have been invited by international sporting organizations to lecture to coaches about the event - can you say the same?

Don't forget all that time spent on Usenet as part of the faction that tried to convince people that Armstrong's and other riders' ridiculous performances could be natural.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Don't forget all that time spent on Usenet as part of the faction that tried to convince people that Armstrong's ridiculous performances could be natural.

r.b.r? is there archives of that anywhere? must google.

 

[D-Queued]

All the more evidence of the (perceived) value of my advice.



"What I do" for a living is biomedical research...anything cycling-related is really just a hobby. Yet, my contributions as a hobbyist are clearly highly valued, at least by some...the question is, what have YOU accomplished in your life?

thehog is not the only contributor here.

I have always considered my accomplishments irrelevant with respect to most discussions here. Thinking otherwise usually leads to trouble.

But, best guess is that the collective accomplishments of the occasional to frequent contributors far outweighs pretty much any single contributor.

Dave.

 

[Nicko.]

So you think the 4km pursuit and the 53km TT use the same % of anaerobic power.

Dude, this is getting painful...
Once you understand the CP concept, these posts of yours will an embarrassment even to yourself.

To spoon-feed you, think of the CP concept as:
1. A finite tank of water (=stored anaerobic WORK or energy)
2. A water pump of fixed volumetric flow rate (=aerobic sustainable work RATE), drawing water from a infinite well.

Test your "water delivery system" twice to the max, by tapping tank+pump during 200sec and 2000sec. The finite tank will contribute the same volume each time, the pump will contribute a volume defined by flow rate and time.

Do the math, the two trials will give you the tank volume and pump flow rate, even though your two measurements have blurred data.

Pump flow rate = critical power.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Dude, this is getting painful...
Once you understand the CP concept, these posts of yours will an embarrassment even to yourself.

To spoon-feed you, think of the CP concept as:
1. A finite tank of water (=stored anaerobic WORK or energy)
2. A water pump of fixed volumetric flow rate (=aerobic sustainable work RATE), drawing water from a infinite well.

Test your "water delivery system" twice to the max, by tapping tank+pump during 200sec and 2000sec. The finite tank will contribute the same volume each time, the pump will contribute a volume defined by flow rate and time.

Do the math, the two trials will give you the tank volume and pump flow rate, even though your two measurements have blurred data.

Pump flow rate = critical power.

The anaerobic component of work is finite, fixed, so let's call it constant X.

Let's call 200 second test work done (kj) A.
Let's call 2000 second test work done (kj) B.

B (kj done in 2000 seconds) > A (kj done in 200 seconds).

The % of A and B that X provides is therefore:

X/A = S% (for short effort %) and
X/B = L% (for long effort %)

B > A therefore S% > L%.

So the % of power produced from anaerobic sources in A (4km pursuit) is greater than the % of power produced from anaerobic sources in B (~1 hour TT).

So no, the 4km pursuit and the 1hr TT do not use the same % of anaerobic power.

 

[JimmyFingers]

you couldn't make that up

 

[coinneach]

you couldn't make that up

I think this might be one reason why Sky do not release all the data on their cyclists......apart from any advantage they may loose to competitors who do not release data, there'd always be someone who would say "Oh that's suspicious" .

You can see in the comments on Ashenden how the reputable experts disagree, never mind the clinic bretheren

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I think this might be one reason why Sky do not release all the data on their cyclists......

What data did they release? The results page?

One does not need the SKY-Files to come to a conclusion, just watch the numbers of other riders and compare them to the Sky robots.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I think this might be one reason why Sky do not release all the data on their cyclists......apart from any advantage they may loose to competitors who do not release data, there'd always be someone who would say "Oh that's suspicious" .

You can see in the comments on Ashenden how the reputable experts disagree, never mind the clinic bretheren

Clinic's full of Betonköpfe. Those who want to believe will create and cling to any excuse given for suspicious fluctuations, those who want to impeach will scour clean-looking data and feast like piranhas on the smallest fluctuation.

Do you remember 2009? Armstrong said he would publish all his data, be transparent, etc. Eventually, after being pressured, his test results were published post-Tour. Then Lance got wind that some conclusions had been drawn from it that he didn't like, so they got taken down.

Sky came to the sport with all this talk of openness, transparency and so forth and so on... and have provided nothing of the sort. Even Armstrong gave the side who wanted him to be clean more to work with. The problem is, if you put your figures into the public domain, you have to anticipate that you may hear analysis that doesn't fit the PR you want to present.

However, to claim your openness and transparency and then leave fans debating power charts based on estimated figures from a sub-standard dataset? That's the problem here. Not only is cycling in a position where the teams and riders have to go out of their way to show cleanliness, because the spectre of doping is so large in the perspective of the fans, but Sky are in a position where they have beholden themselves to do so - and then refused. How does that look when they throw their hands up protesting innocence as a bunch of ex-dopers and a doping doctor are quietly jettisoned into the night, carefully timed to be hidden from the press by the Armstrong fallout? About as innocent as Marco Materazzi throwing his arms up after the referee's whistle goes when he's been wrestling the shirt off the forward he's marking.

 

[JimmyFingers]

you're right of course, but whatever Sky are doing, they're no better or worse than any other cycling team, or plenty of pro athletes.

Starting to feel these discussions are redundant. Too many people use this place to massage their ego, and there is very little objectivity. Sky may have come into the sport talking big and honest, and may have gone back on that and painted a target on their back because of it, but they're not monsters and they don't deserve the vitriol and bile spewed at them on a daily basis here. That is born of personal bias rather than objective desire for a cleaner sport.

Plenty of other teams do the same or worse than Sky, but because Sky talk about it they get threads spiralling into the tens of thousands of posts, the teams that say nothing barely get talked about.

So another redundant comment to add to this already bloated thread. Maybe it because I have chest cold and can't go out on the bike, or because KBK has been cancelled that I feel do bored and down, or maybe it because if this place has taught me anything it is that professional sport is largely a sham. So you end up shrugging your shoulders and embracing it, because the alternative is not watching.

When I came here I passionately believed Sky were clean, now I'm not so sure but I do know they don't deserve to be hated so much. Just people trying to make their way through life. Whatever ranting goes on here little will change, it's up to the sportsmen and women themselves to make their decisions and be able to sleep well at night. Meanwhile we'll continue to watch and secretly hope what we're watching isn't a lie. I just want to believe people like Vaughters are telling us the truth.

I guess I just look for the best in people, rather than assuming the worst.

 

[Carstenbf]

I guess I just look for the best in people, rather than assuming the worst.

Used to feel that way. But having given both Riis and the Chicken the benefit of the doubt, I'm done believing in fairy tales. I know what I saw last July.

I hope I'm wrong, I really do.

 

[ultimobici]

The anaerobic component of work is finite, fixed, so let's call it constant X.

Let's call 200 second test work done (kj) A.
Let's call 2000 second test work done (kj) B.

B (kj done in 2000 seconds) > A (kj done in 200 seconds).

The % of A and B that X provides is therefore:

X/A = S% (for short effort %) and
X/B = L% (for long effort %)

B > A therefore S% > L%.

So the % of power produced from anaerobic sources in A (4km pursuit) is greater than the % of power produced from anaerobic sources in B (~1 hour TT).

So no, the 4km pursuit and the 1hr TT do not use the same % of anaerobic power.

I don't quite see why you keep banging on about a pursuiter's ability not being comparable to TT ability.

Wiggins is not the first pursuiter to win or podium in long TTs.

Boardman won the Olympic Pursuit and the inaugural World TT Championship, together with a few 2nd & 3rd places in later WC.

So it is not beyond the realms of possibilities that Wiggins can do the same or better.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Plenty of other teams do the same or worse than Sky, but because Sky talk about it they get threads spiralling into the tens of thousands of posts, the teams that say nothing barely get talked about.

Well, that and that they demolish all of those other teams that do the same or worse and don't put so much effort into telling everybody how clean they are, often at races which have the biggest audiences (and the biggest casual audiences, which often intensifies the bipolar us vs them dynamic).

The thread was always going to bloat out, because the biggest successes always attract the most discussions. Hence why the threads about Contador and Lance grow so big too. Especially as this site is UK-based and Anglophone, so there is a greater amount of coverage (which can also breed increased resentment in the same way as an overexposed band or TV show can generate a backlash). There was back in 2010, when we got features on the season goals of every rider on the team, and several PR releases dressed up as news stories, to the point where the front page was almost more of a Team Sky fansite than Dim's specific Team Sky Fans site. It generated a backlash against them even then. Their talking in a combination of the worst corporate management speak justifying themselves and invective-laden attacks on the integrity and life skills of anybody who questions the story both puts the back up of many fans, and also causes déjà vu for many long-time fans. When they make PR gaffes like comparing themselves to US Postal Service or running away from journalists asking them about Leinders, this generates more news because of their current position in the sport than if it was, say, Gianni Savio. Cos if it was Savio, we'd just go "lol, Savio, who does he think he's kidding?" but when it's Brailsford it generates several pages of discussion - because not only do we have the incident itself, but Savio wouldn't have to try to scramble to find a way to justify it on-message (as he doesn't really have a message), so it wouldn't generate another set of discussion afterwards. Likewise Wiggins' eternal self-contradictions.

 

[Ferminal]

I don't quite see why you keep banging on about a pursuiter's ability not being comparable to TT ability.

Wiggins is not the first pursuiter to win or podium in long TTs.

Boardman won the Olympic Pursuit and the inaugural World TT Championship, together with a few 2nd & 3rd places in later WC.

So it is not beyond the realms of possibilities that Wiggins can do the same or better.

Indeed, McGee finished 2nd in Athens 4km after 2nd in the long Giro ITT and several wins in shorter ones of various lengths.

 

[acoggan]

So has Chris Carmichael. Only hacks attempt to support their opinions by lauding their accomplishments. Each analysis stands on its own merit. Plenty of "accomplished" people use their position to advance ridiculous theories.

I was merely responding to Dear Wiggo's (implied) claim that I didn't understand the demands of pursuiting. In fact, I understand them quite well (which is why coaches consult w/ me).

Further, as a statistician, when I hear people citing R-squared values as "proof" of anything, I immediately know they're either a) largely uneducated in statistical analysis or b) full of sh!t.

As I already pointed out, S.E.E. is the true measure of a regression.

 

[acoggan]

Don't forget all that time spent on Usenet as part of the faction that tried to convince people that Armstrong's and other riders' ridiculous performances could be natural.

Just attempting to educate the uneducated masses re. what physiology can/cannot really tell us about the "naturalness" of human performance.

 

[acoggan]

thehog is not the only contributor here.

My comment was in response to his ad hominem attack. If you (or anyone else) have got some personal accomplishments or credentials that you think would add weight to your arguments, though, consider this an invitation to share them.

 

[acoggan]

The anaerobic component of work is finite, fixed, so let's call it constant X.

Yup, that's what Nicko just said, and that's why/how the critical power model can be used (within limits) to extrapolate from performance at shorter durations to performance over longer durations.

 

[acoggan]

Deleted material

Attempting to help ostensibly clean athletes win via legal means is not serving the sport well??

 

[acoggan]

So you think the 4km pursuit and the 53km TT use the same % of anaerobic power.

Sorry - I snipped your text before responding, and thought you'd writen "agree", not "disagree".