Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dear Wiggo]

The reference to Berto was because he did the Giro/Vuelta double in 2008, so it's clearly possible, whereas the Giro/Tour double was beyond him.

In doping terms, I don't think a Giro/Vuelta double would be significantly more indicative of doping than simply winning the Giro. If you're good enough to feature highly in the Giro (by whatever means) then you'll be good enough to feature highly in the Vuelta as well, so long as you retain control of your schedule and are able to recover and re-peak properly.

You make it sound as easy as Sky have been making it look.

But I don't believe in miracles.

 

[Ferminal]

Giro-Tour would be unusual, given the time gap between the two is too long to hold a peak and too short to recover and re-peak with plenty of riders aiming to peak at one or the other. Exhibit A = Berto 2011.

Giro-Vuelta seems entirely plausible if a rider is good enough to podium in a GT, as there's enough time to recover and re-peak. Exhibit B = Berto 2008.

Tour-Vuelta would be similar to Giro-Tour. Exhibit C = Froome 2012.

However, this is all old ground. I've said plenty of times that I think Sky/Wiggo are suspicious. My particular point this time round was that however you try and spin it, Wiggo's opposition last year (particularly in the Tour) was weak.

If you don't believe this, draw up a list of riders who had demonstrated GT podium form in recent seasons. This seems like a decent proxy for "quality of rider" when assessing a GT field. Then see how many of them rode the Tour without the obvious handicap of a hard Giro in their legs. One list is much shorter than the other!

Contador only beat Bruseghin and Leipheimer in 2008...

 

[zalacain]

If I were you I would stop watching cycling now and do something more useful with my time.

That is unfortunately something I am starting to do

 

[del1962]

Contador only beat Bruseghin and Leipheimer in 2008...

I thought nearly 200 cyclists started a grand tour

 

[mattghg]

I disagree. Sky didn't exist on paper but they did have a meeting with ASO. And Ellingworth was going to be, and is, coaching the riders.





matthgh is trying to say Wiggins' transformation didn't happen at (--> due to) Sky. Regardless of the apparent employer of the coach (Ellingworth), it wasn't a transformation at Garmin, due to Garmin, for Wiggins. IMO, Garmin had nothing to do with Wiggins transformation - it was all Sky.

Yep, it was all Sky, before Sky existed

 

[Gerippe]

I thought nearly 200 cyclists started a grand tour

but no 200 grand tour contenders

 

[JimmyFingers]

Yep, it was all Sky, before Sky existed

Sky has always been there, in one form or other

 

[Ferminal]

I thought nearly 200 cyclists started a grand tour

You're right, we shouldn't try and downplay a season's worth of results based on such a shaky concept.

 

[staubsauger]

You do remember that in fact Leipheimer all-in-all was stronger than Contador during that Vuelta do you? He never raced like that before or after during his whole career, but Levi probably would've beaten Albero at that gt if just allowed to do so.

About Giro/Tour double. My opinion is that in 2012 Contador would've archived that without any problems as both, Giro and Tour were without any big difficulties. 2011 was just the wrong year for it, because of that murder giro.

 

[rainman]

Of course they get saddle sores. As you say, they do this for a living. When your ride your bike 6 hours a day there's always a risk for getting saddle sores...

Looking at Wiggo's position on his tt bike I'd be surprised if saddle sores are the only problem. He'll be singing like a Cambridge choirboy soon.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Looking at Wiggo's position on his tt bike I'd be surprised if saddle sores are the only problem. He'll be singing like a Cambridge choirboy soon.

He alluded to that didn't he, saying it was nothing for ladies ears. Ouch

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

And for what it's worth, I don't think Ellingworth coached him to 4th either. Coached him, yes. But I think Wiggins had "help" to get 4th place. Help that has been refined over the years and was most evident in 2012.

Yep, that is the interesting part of Wiggo 2009. Where did he train?

He didn't need a yearround Teide stay to end up fourth/third/second/first in that year's Tour de France.

And, as the Sky experts have told us numerous times, Wiggo won last years Tour because Andy and Alberto were not present at the Tour.

Nice article:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/436524/bradley-wiggins-the-transformation.html

Very few things in world-class sport can be treated as a formality, but a gold medal for Wiggins in the individual pursuit in Beijing was one of them. Before the Games, Great Britain's cycling team held a training camp in Newport before flying to Beijing. Wiggins would while away the afternoons watching the Tour on television, not missing it a bit. During one of the mountain stages, Sutton told him: "You know, with the power you produce and the cadence you do it at on the track, there's no reason why you can't be up there with them."
Wiggins was not convinced. He'd tried it before, but had always been dropped. "No, you've only half-heartedly tried it," Sutton said.

At Heathrow airport, Wiggins saw Jonathan Vaughters, who told him the line about turning a miler into a marathon runner.

"He said he'd seen what I'd done on the track and couldn't understand why I kept getting dropped on the road," says Wiggins.

Once the Olympics were over, Wiggins was determined not to lose another two years. "I was 29, a bit more mature, and I wanted to see what I had inside me, whether I could do something on the road."

He asked his Columbia team manager Brian Holm how he saw the 2009 season panning out. Holm told him there was a place in the Mark Cavendish lead-out train for him, but that he couldn't be guaranteed a place in the Tour.
"That made my mind up really. I enjoyed riding for Cav in the Giro, and I completely understand why they saw that as a good job for me, because Cav can win stages in every race he does, he could win the green jersey. You'd be stupid not to build a team around Cav, but part of me wanted more than that for myself. I wasn't an integral part of the lead-out train anyway. I'd just be filling a space."

Much has been made of the post-Beijing fall-out between Wiggins and Cavendish. They fell well short in the Madison, leaving Cavendish as the only member of the British track team without a medal. The pair didn't speak for several weeks, but anyone who believes there is real enmity between them is mistaken. Sure, they wind each other up, but Wiggins sees Cavendish as a sparky younger brother figure, and will roll his eyes in mock despair when recounting the last drama to embroil Cavendish.

Garmin offered Wiggins a two-year contract, and a handsome one at that. Wiggins outlined his goals, but it was Sutton who urged him to see how well he could do at the Tour. To make the top 20 overall, he'd need to climb better, and to do that, he'd need to lose weight.

British Cycling's Matt Parker has coached Wiggins for several years, and it was him who did the calculations. "We've always known there's a road rider in there," he says. "Brad is a supreme athlete. He's an Olympic champion and world record holder, the power he produces, we knew he could climb well, maybe not in the first group every day, but definitely in the second, and that would give him a chance of being in the top 10 of the Tour."

Wiggins rode the Olympic Games last summer weighing 82kg. In the past he has ridden the Tour and Giro d'Italia at about 77kg or 78kg. The aim was to start the Tour this year at 72kg. It stands to reason that if you can produce 450 watts for 10 minutes weighing 72kg instead of 78, the gain in performance is going to be considerable. Enough, Parker says, to put him in the front group on the climbs.

"You develop a lot of muscle mass, particularly on the upper body, while training for the track over the winter," says Parker. "We wanted him to lose that, but to do it slowly, so that it didn't affect his power.

"Everyone has focused on the weight loss, but it's not been radical. It's been managed very sensibly and safely. If you lose weight too quickly you don't maintain the power and you can affect the immune system. Radical weight loss in sport is never good."

Working with the nutritionist, Nigel Mitchell, Wiggins began to lose weight at the start of the year. He went gluten free in January and February, stopped having sugar in his coffee, would do training rides without having breakfast to get his metabolism to work differently, and he'd do longer training rides.

And the beer? "I haven't had a beer since January," he says, rather longingly. "I've had a little bit of wine, but the carbs in beer are not what you want, so I've cut it out."

Wiggins started the Giro d'Italia under 75kg, then the three-week stage race did the rest. And his climbing improved too. In the first ten days he was regularly with the front group on the climbs, although his team-mate Christian Vande Velde told him he was doing it the hard way.

"On Alpe di Siusi, I was sitting on the back of the group and Christian was watching and he said ‘the amount of work you did that day was worthy of a top five finish'. Being at the back meant that every time someone got dropped, I had to ride round them and close the gap."

Riding at the front makes life so much easier, but you have to earn your place there. "They [the other contenders] don't want you there if they think you're going to go pop any moment. They want you out of the way, because they last thing they need is you sitting up so they have to ride round you."

The Giro, though, swelled Wiggins' confidence. "After that I thought ‘maybe I can
do something at the Tour'."

The tests he'd done suggested he could. "In a ten-mile time trial I averaged 482 watts for 18 minutes, and if I did a 30-minute test on a climb I'd be averaging 475 watts. At 71, 72kg that gives me a chance. It's a level playing field now, or so they keep telling us, and I believe that, so why not? I'm in the bike race, we've all got two arms and two legs, so why not? If I blow up one day and lose 20 minutes, so what?"

Indeed, 6.6w/k would definitely give you a chance!

* 475 watts at 71.5 kilo = 6.64 w/k for 30 minutes
482 watts at 71.5 kilo = 6.74 w/k for 18 minutes

I tend to think the difference between 18 and 30 minutes should be bigger, this is 1.5%, should be around a 5% drop.

* Training without breakfast = is killing your muscles, and not your upper body ones.
When y read the following link it is obvious the Bradster feels the same way:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/11/bradley-wiggins-cycling-fitness-guide-olympics

8. Fuel up

If you are doing more than just going out for a quick spin, make sure you have enough food and drink, or the money to buy them en route. And think beforehand about where you are going to find a garage or village shop to fill up. The last thing you want is to find you have somehow ended up going further and longer than you expected, but without the fuel to do it.

* Shane Sutton/Nigel Mitchell/Matt Parker: where are the Garmin coaches at this?

Now, lets take a look at his 2009 BP:

* during Tour and Giro his hemaglobin rises
* he ends the Giro with an offscore of 65 and starts the Tour with an offscore of 95

How does one rise the hemaglobin levels during a Grand Tour? Did he have a meeting with sir Dave in Sion?
But he, we also have this one:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/16/sports/cycling/16tour.html?_r=0

“It makes a big difference to lose that weight because it was like he was climbing with a pretty big backpack on his back,” said Allen Lim, the team’s exercise physiologist. He estimated that Wiggins had a 10-12 percent increase in performance because of the weight loss.

At the new weight, Wiggins needs to produce fewer watts to ascend just as fast as he did when he was heavier, Lim said.

The ricecookie man always knows! Loose weight but do not loose power. Lim would know the trick to that.

“I just let him be Brad,” Vaughters said. “There’s a very special reason I brought him onto this team, and that was because of his personality, but also because of his talent.”

Well well, Wiggo tha clown.

Wiggo Jan 2009:

What a fattie.

Yep, it was all Sky, before Sky existed

No, before Sky existed you didnt even know road cycling was a sport. Be a good sport.

 

[JimmyFingers]

SNIP

I'm not sur eI agree with all of it but chapeau for a thorough and informative post.

One thing: would training without eating be similar to low muscle glycogen training? I thought that was a fairly common practise to avoid hitting the wall and make the body better at metabolising fat and using that as fuel?

 

[xcleigh]

'would do training rides without having breakfast to get his metabolism to work differently, and he'd do longer training rides'

'If you are doing more than just going out for a quick spin, make sure you have enough food and drink, or the money to buy them en route. And think beforehand about where you are going to find a garage or village shop to fill up. The last thing you want is to find you have somehow ended up going further and longer than you expected, but without the fuel to do it.'

So these two statements are perfectly compatible, go out without breakfast (as I often do, just a coffee or tea to wake me up) but making sure you have enough food for the ride (less than 2hrs I may not even bother taking food).

 

[RownhamHill]

The reference to Berto was because he did the Giro/Vuelta double in 2008, so it's clearly possible, whereas the Giro/Tour double was beyond him.

In doping terms, I don't think a Giro/Vuelta double would be significantly more indicative of doping than simply winning the Giro. If you're good enough to feature highly in the Giro (by whatever means) then you'll be good enough to feature highly in the Vuelta as well, so long as you retain control of your schedule and are able to recover and re-peak properly.

Didn't Purito podium both last year?

 

[Ferminal]

If he got refill in Switzerland it only helped him go backwards (relatively speaking as no doubt the 6 guys ahead of him had one too).

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I was looking at that 2009 TdF graph again recently, and realised his Hgb value, 2 weeks into the race, was higher than when the race started. That's some recovery.

 

[JimmyFingers]

So does it prove he was doping? There are constant calls for Sky to release blood values, we have some for Brad, it should be proof, shouldn't it?

 

[Ferminal]

I was looking at that 2009 TdF graph again recently, and realised his Hgb value, 2 weeks into the race, was higher than when the race started. That's some recovery.

It was a testing error. Different machine or different time of the day, or something.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It was a testing error. Different machine or different time of the day, or something.

Convenient.

 

[Lanark]

Great post FGL. Wasn't 2009 the year where Bordry warned for the use of Aicar?

Those riding anorexia patients...at least Rasmussen had the decency to suck in the time trials.

 

[will10]

I was looking at that 2009 TdF graph again recently, and realised his Hgb value, 2 weeks into the race, was higher than when the race started. That's some recovery.

First two weeks were super tame that year though. Remember this is the guy who got on the front on one of the sprint stages in the first week of the 2012 Tour, because he wanted to blow the cobwebs out as he was detraining just sat in the bunch. It was too easy to just be following. So maybe he was detraining over all those tame ASO "final climb 70km from the finish" ""mountain"" stages that the 2009 Tour was decorated with.

 

[JimmyFingers]

It was a testing error. Different machine or different time of the day, or something.

If that is the case what value are blood values? (no pun intended)

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I'm not sur eI agree with all of it but chapeau for a thorough and informative post.

One thing: would training without eating be similar to low muscle glycogen training? I thought that was a fairly common practise to avoid hitting the wall and make the body better at metabolising fat and using that as fuel?

You will burn off muscles, and smell like ammonia at the same time. I tend to think he didnt train at low intensity so fatburning is not really an issue then.

Remember what Eric Boyer said on Wiggo's body fat at Cofidis?

http://www.lavoixdessports.com/Tour...radley-wiggins-le-rouleur-qui-monte-qui.shtml

In short: dropped six kiloos, WHERE?

It was a testing error. Different machine or different time of the day, or something.

And he was sick, and everyone tested high, and....

Wasn't 2009 the year where Bordry warned for the use of Aicar?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/afld-president-suspects-new-drugs-in-peloton

 

[mattghg]

No, before Sky existed you didnt even know road cycling was a sport. Be a good sport.

You don't know what you're talking about. Again.