Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[coinneach]

Should be fine by the Giro.

Lets hope so: even the most rabid Skyhater can't take any pleasure from races won by mechanical problems?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Why do you keep bringing up this nonsense, when you KNOW that's not the way IOC funding works? We've went through this. In detail. I can only conclude that you are intent on pushing something dishonestly.

We established that you had some useful information, but no details. For example, we don't know the uci's portion of the london games proceeds. We know that ratings were very good for cycling too. We know the uci has assisted in creating myths.

Imho, there's plenty of evidence to support the idea the uci picked grand tour winners in 2012 to 'grow cycling.'

 

[armchairclimber]

Surely it's because he was pushing 9w/kg....just too much torque.

 

[BroDeal]

Lets hope so: even the most rabid Skyhater can't take any pleasure from races won by mechanical problems?

Why not? For a team with such attention to detail, Sky sure has a lot of mechanicals and wrong gear selection. It is almost enough to make people wonder whether Sky's legendary conscientiousness is nothing but a public relations gimick to cover for something. Almost.

 

[Ripper]

Lets hope so: even the most rabid Skyhater can't take any pleasure from races won by mechanical problems?

I can't speak for the haterz, but you do realize Trentino was not won due to a mechanical?

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Ego

First the bike throw
Second the cycling straight to the team bus
Third rocketing off in the team car to escape the press.

Calm down Sir Brad - it's just a game.
Nibali wouldn't do that.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Is any of that data you analyze from testing time-dependent?

Is any of that data context-dependent?

1) Yes.

2) This is an ill defined term. Arguably all data is context dependent.
Could you clarify what you are asking, and I'll respond.

 

[martinvickers]

We established that you had some useful information, but no details. For example, we don't know the uci's portion of the london games proceeds. We know that ratings were very good for cycling too. We know the uci has assisted in creating myths.

Imho, there's plenty of evidence to support the idea the uci picked grand tour winners in 2012 to 'grow cycling.'

Well, the first thing we know is that the apportioning of IOC funding to IOSF's (International Olympic Sports Federations) is NOT calculated by reference to 'ratings', but to a set three tier formula, with cycling on the middle tier (it will NEVER be tier one, that is reserved solely for IAAF).

We've gone over this.

Repeatedly.

To introduce TV ratings, yet again, when you know better, is just dishonest.

 

[Clausfarre]

Why not? For a team with such attention to detail, Sky sure has a lot of mechanicals and wrong gear selection. It is almost enough to make people wonder whether Sky's legendary conscientiousness is nothing but a public relations gimick to cover for something. Almost.

That would be classic. I recall Lance's "new pedalling technique", "unususally effective heart" and all the special things they did to become a superior team. It turned out to be lots and lots of drugs. And Sky? I hope a book comes out with some dirt in it (possible title Secret Knowledge Y'all)

 

[Dear Wiggo]

1) Yes.

So why scatter plot Hgb vs Retic%? They lag each other. Retics% is useful for testing for blood transfusions, but again, the retics response lags transfusions. And can be bumped using EPO.

2) This is an ill defined term. Arguably all data is context dependent.
Could you clarify what you are asking, and I'll respond.

If you only see (and that's what we see) a jump er I mean testing error in the second week of a GT, regardless of race, the testing error looks more suspicious than if it occurred at random points in the race.

I have no problem with testing errors until they stop being RANDOM.

For someone like you, talking themselves up through putting others down, this seems like a very fundamental point to miss.

You appear to be approaching this "problem" of BP profile analysis with the mindset that the riders are clean.

My mindset is: history tells us winning bike races leads to fat contracts, and any assistance will be taken.

I also wonder if there's a bit of hero worship going on, or you have skin in the game, given who is releasing the profiles, but I don't personally trust them, and they admit to "saying whatever pops into their heads" and get pretty evasive when questioned about anomalies in what they've said, let alone the profiles released.

 

[Catwhoorg]

If you only see (and that's what we see) a jump er I mean testing error in the second week of a GT, regardless of race, the testing error looks more suspicious than if it occurred at random points in the race.

I have no problem with testing errors until they stop being RANDOM.

Do you really think you are seeing all the 2009 data here ?

Look at the dates, you have 4 points from a year where he didn't do much on the road as a baseline, then 4 points based around each of the GTs Wiggo did.

Any shift is going to be seen within the GT data, as that's all you have. I'd wager that there are at least another 4-6 points for 2009 that weren't published. Feel free to assume that if they had been it would favor your position.

For someone like you, talking themselves up through putting others down, this seems like a very fundamental point to miss.

I'm not actually belittling anyone but do expect people to actually understand data before using/abusing it.

You appear to be approaching this "problem" of BP profile analysis with the mindset that the riders are clean.

My mindset is: history tells us winning bike races leads to fat contracts, and any assistance will be taken.

For the bold, yes that's true. That's the null hypothesis required by any bio passport program.

Your mindset is up to you, but you are trying to push something that doesn't fit into that mindset.

I got no skin in the game. But misuse of data, any data, annoys my scientific tendencies and I tend to speak out when I see it.

 

[Catwhoorg]

So why scatter plot Hgb vs Retic%? They lag each other. Retics% is useful for testing for blood transfusions, but again, the retics response lags transfusions. And can be bumped using EPO.

Forgot to address this point.

If you actually plot Hg versus Ret% you should get a fairly decent ellipse. Not that meaningful with 12 data points (and calculated ret% reverse engineered from the off scores.) but it is a useful technique.

Done 'blind' it highlights points worthy of further inquiry both on the upside and downside.

 

[Galic Ho]

It begins. Wigan will be the downfall. Trentino has set the scene. Nibali has his number. Props to Michele Ferrari for that one and Vino for signing him.

I have to laugh at all the Skybots who believed the lies from Sky regarding Wigan's fail. There was one mechanical. I'll repeat that. ONE LEGIT MECHANICAL. On the lighter section of the climb. Wigans had the power to catch back up but took his time having a tantie like the cry baby he is. Thanks for the video Greg. Wigan was close to catching back up and Nibali dropped the hammer and Wigans mentally cracked. He did not suffer another issue or lack of a power meter. It was pure lack of power. He did not have it. But he's a crybaby McCrap eater and whinges...so Sky cover for him and make up a convenient lie of 'additional' mechanical's. Deflection 101. The aim is to divert attention away from what REALLY HAPPENED. He choked. Big time. Nibali has the extra leg this year. Go Ferrari! WOOW!

Seriously, who out there is dumb, naive and gullible enough to believe Sky incorrectly geared not one, but two bikes? It has started. The downfall of Sky. It was always going to be EGO and it will spread like wildfire. Always is with ******nozzles with over inflated senses of self entitlement. Wigans has this happen at the Giro, he'll go full *** like Froome and Porte have done. Or better, he'll give in. Throw in the towel and switch focus to the Tour. Now that is what I hope happens.

To the person crying a page back about mechanicals determining races. Wake up and examine history. Carlos Sastre said nobody ever waited for him when he had a mechanical. Did he chuck a tantrum? Nobody waited for Evans in the 2009 Vuelta. He kept riding didn't he? Throw a bike or have a hissy fit and refuse to talk to people? Nope. Get over it and move on and build a bridge. The best rider won and your boy CHOKED.

Marginal gains...yeah right. When Andy Schleck dropped his chain in the 2010 Tour he was blamed for it on this forum. Only the fanboys believed he wasn't at fault. How about people stop accommodating the Skybots and trolls who are too dense to wake up to reality. Wigans did a Wigan. Nibali played like Man Utd. Call it what it is, don't make BS excuses for a team who are doping to their eyeballs and excusing it with marginal gains. That doesn't cut it here. Least of all when they supposedly cannot setup two bikes for their big gun. They be lying to you all.

As I said. It has begun. Sky are going down. Down down down down down down and down some more. Might as well start calling them team Dirt. The cause? EGO. Was always gonna be ego. I've said it before...too many Roosters in the hen house. It's what happens when the whole team goes full ***. Sky riders are the poster children for adult insecurities in a sporting environment. This fall will be hard on some.

 

[The Hitch]

In amidst the white noise you make a good point. Nibali is a doper, proved ferrari client. A Ferrari client climbing specialist who was a talent from the start. And yet Wiggins,a nobody till 2009, and froome, a nobody till 2011 outclimbed him in the tour. Italy's greatest gt prospect in a decade, on a Ferrari programme, and sky at will coughs out "fully clean"riders who he can't even match.

amazing.

 

[ianfra]

It begins. Wigan will be the downfall. Trentino has set the scene. Nibali has his number. Props to Michele Ferrari for that one and Vino for signing him.

I have to laugh at all the Skybots who believed the lies from Sky regarding Wigan's fail. There was one mechanical. I'll repeat that. ONE LEGIT MECHANICAL. On the lighter section of the climb. Wigans had the power to catch back up but took his time having a tantie like the cry baby he is. Thanks for the video Greg. Wigan was close to catching back up and Nibali dropped the hammer and Wigans mentally cracked. He did not suffer another issue or lack of a power meter. It was pure lack of power. He did not have it. But he's a crybaby McCrap eater and whinges...so Sky cover for him and make up a convenient lie of 'additional' mechanical's. Deflection 101. The aim is to divert attention away from what REALLY HAPPENED. He choked. Big time. Nibali has the extra leg this year. Go Ferrari! WOOW!

Seriously, who out there is dumb, naive and gullible enough to believe Sky incorrectly geared not one, but two bikes? It has started. The downfall of Sky. It was always going to be EGO and it will spread like wildfire. Always is with ******nozzles with over inflated senses of self entitlement. Wigans has this happen at the Giro, he'll go full *** like Froome and Porte have done. Or better, he'll give in. Throw in the towel and switch focus to the Tour. Now that is what I hope happens.

To the person crying a page back about mechanicals determining races. Wake up and examine history. Carlos Sastre said nobody ever waited for him when he had a mechanical. Did he chuck a tantrum? Nobody waited for Evans in the 2009 Vuelta. He kept riding didn't he? Throw a bike or have a hissy fit and refuse to talk to people? Nope. Get over it and move on and build a bridge. The best rider won and your boy CHOKED.

Marginal gains...yeah right. When Andy Schleck dropped his chain in the 2010 Tour he was blamed for it on this forum. Only the fanboys believed he wasn't at fault. How about people stop accommodating the Skybots and trolls who are too dense to wake up to reality. Wigans did a Wigan. Nibali played like Man Utd. Call it what it is, don't make BS excuses for a team who are doping to their eyeballs and excusing it with marginal gains. That doesn't cut it here. Least of all when they supposedly cannot setup two bikes for their big gun. They be lying to you all. Quit buying it and feeding the mongoloids around here who have kept this thread running for 18,500 posts now.

As I said. It has begun. Sky are going down. Down down down down down down and down some more. Might as well start calling them team Dirt. The cause? EGO. Was always gonna be ego. I've said it before...too many Roosters in the hen house. It's what happens when the whole team goes full ***. Sky riders are the poster children for adult insecurities in a sporting environment. This fall will be hard on some.

So sad that when people come in to sponsor and promote our sport, there are ne'er-do-wells, no hopers, losers like the poster quoted above - who all they seem to contribute to our sport is rudeness to the sponsors and their riders. You people who find it so easy to talk like this on the net should ask yourself: Could I talk like this face to face with the riders, the managers, the coaches? My guess is that you could not. Because what you say has no substance, no basis in fact and is rude - displaying a complete lack of social skills. Where are the positives? What do you do on a daily basis for our sport? Do you help kids? Do you give of your free time? Or do you just sit at home, all lonely and lost, sniping at those good people that achieve?

 

[ianfra]

That would be classic. I recall Lance's "new pedalling technique", "unususally effective heart" and all the special things they did to become a superior team. It turned out to be lots and lots of drugs. And Sky? I hope a book comes out with some dirt in it (possible title Secret Knowledge Y'all)

Hope in vane Clausfarre.

 

[LaFlorecita]

In amidst the white noise you make a good point. Nibali is a doper, proved ferrari client. A Ferrari client climbing specialist who was a talent from the start. And yet Wiggins,a nobody till 2009, and froome, a nobody till 2011 outclimbed him in the tour. Italy's greatest gt prospect in a decade, on a Ferrari programme, and sky at will coughs out "fully clean"riders who he can't even match.

amazing.

Yes, it is amazing Same goes for Alberto. I mean wtf.

 

[The Hitch]

So sad that when people come in to sponsor and promote our sport, there are ne'er-do-wells, no hopers, losers like the poster quoted above - who all they seem to contribute to our sport is rudeness to the sponsors and their riders. You people who find it so easy to talk like this on the net should ask yourself: Could I talk like this face to face with the riders, the managers, the coaches? My guess is that you could not. Because what you say has no substance, no basis in fact and is rude - displaying a complete lack of social skills. Where are the positives? What do you do on a daily basis for our sport? Do you help kids? Do you give of your free time? Or do you just sit at home, all lonely and lost, sniping at those good people that achieve?

All in all, a 3 star Wiggins impersenation. Could do with direct insults against a lot more people, a few obvious lies, some more hypocricy and a **** load of swearwords. Otherwise, very good.

 

[xcleigh]

It begins. Wigan will be the downfall. Trentino has set the scene. Nibali has his number. Props to Michele Ferrari for that one and Vino for signing him.

I have to laugh at all the Skybots who believed the lies from Sky regarding Wigan's fail. There was one mechanical. I'll repeat that. ONE LEGIT MECHANICAL. On the lighter section of the climb. Wigans had the power to catch back up but took his time having a tantie like the cry baby he is. Thanks for the video Greg. Wigan was close to catching back up and Nibali dropped the hammer and Wigans mentally cracked. He did not suffer another issue or lack of a power meter. It was pure lack of power. He did not have it. But he's a crybaby McCrap eater and whinges...so Sky cover for him and make up a convenient lie of 'additional' mechanical's. Deflection 101. The aim is to divert attention away from what REALLY HAPPENED. He choked. Big time. Nibali has the extra leg this year. Go Ferrari! WOOW!

Seriously, who out there is dumb, naive and gullible enough to believe Sky incorrectly geared not one, but two bikes? It has started. The downfall of Sky. It was always going to be EGO and it will spread like wildfire. Always is with ******nozzles with over inflated senses of self entitlement. Wigans has this happen at the Giro, he'll go full *** like Froome and Porte have done. Or better, he'll give in. Throw in the towel and switch focus to the Tour. Now that is what I hope happens.

To the person crying a page back about mechanicals determining races. Wake up and examine history. Carlos Sastre said nobody ever waited for him when he had a mechanical. Did he chuck a tantrum? Nobody waited for Evans in the 2009 Vuelta. He kept riding didn't he? Throw a bike or have a hissy fit and refuse to talk to people? Nope. Get over it and move on and build a bridge. The best rider won and your boy CHOKED.

Marginal gains...yeah right. When Andy Schleck dropped his chain in the 2010 Tour he was blamed for it on this forum. Only the fanboys believed he wasn't at fault. How about people stop accommodating the Skybots and trolls who are too dense to wake up to reality. Wigans did a Wigan. Nibali played like Man Utd. Call it what it is, don't make BS excuses for a team who are doping to their eyeballs and excusing it with marginal gains. That doesn't cut it here. Least of all when they supposedly cannot setup two bikes for their big gun. They be lying to you all.

As I said. It has begun. Sky are going down. Down down down down down down and down some more. Might as well start calling them team Dirt. The cause? EGO. Was always gonna be ego. I've said it before...too many Roosters in the hen house. It's what happens when the whole team goes full ***. Sky riders are the poster children for adult insecurities in a sporting environment. This fall will be hard on some.

More comedy gold ranting All this from one mechanical and a show of frustration from Wiggins lol Sky going down would be your fantasy coming true This is you at your keyboard isn't it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqZTP8-8wIs

(I'd hate to be your mechanic Mr perfect - I presume you've never dropped a gear when you've been out riding - oh hang on do you actually ride a bike Garlic?)

your sincerely idiotic, buffon, mongoloid (though my mum is from Somerset) Skybot1004567908976756463764554

 

[LaFlorecita]

All in all, a 3 star Wiggins impersenation. Could do with direct insults against a lot more people, a few obvious lies, some more hypocricy and a **** load of swearwords. Otherwise, very good.

I thought it was great

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

It begins. Wigan will be the downfall. Trentino has set the scene. Nibali has his number. Props to Michele Ferrari for that one and Vino for signing him.

I have to laugh at all the Skybots who believed the lies from Sky regarding Wigan's fail. There was one mechanical. I'll repeat that. ONE LEGIT MECHANICAL. On the lighter section of the climb. Wigans had the power to catch back up but took his time having a tantie like the cry baby he is. Thanks for the video Greg. Wigan was close to catching back up and Nibali dropped the hammer and Wigans mentally cracked. He did not suffer another issue or lack of a power meter. It was pure lack of power. He did not have it. But he's a crybaby McCrap eater and whinges...so Sky cover for him and make up a convenient lie of 'additional' mechanical's. Deflection 101. The aim is to divert attention away from what REALLY HAPPENED. He choked. Big time. Nibali has the extra leg this year. Go Ferrari! WOOW!

You were saying a similar thing about Wiggins last Tour. How did that work out for you?

btw Do you suffer from Napoleon complex?

 

[armchairclimber]

I'd say Nibali won fair and square. Impressive. The re-match should be fun, with Wiggins trying to mark a confident Nibali.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

It begins. Wigan will be the downfall. Trentino has set the scene. Nibali has his number. Props to Michele Ferrari for that one and Vino for signing him.

I have to laugh at all the Skybots who believed the lies from Sky regarding Wigan's fail. There was one mechanical. I'll repeat that. ONE LEGIT MECHANICAL. On the lighter section of the climb. Wigans had the power to catch back up but took his time having a tantie like the cry baby he is. Thanks for the video Greg. Wigan was close to catching back up and Nibali dropped the hammer and Wigans mentally cracked. He did not suffer another issue or lack of a power meter. It was pure lack of power. He did not have it. But he's a crybaby McCrap eater and whinges...so Sky cover for him and make up a convenient lie of 'additional' mechanical's. Deflection 101. The aim is to divert attention away from what REALLY HAPPENED. He choked. Big time. Nibali has the extra leg this year. Go Ferrari! WOOW!

Seriously, who out there is dumb, naive and gullible enough to believe Sky incorrectly geared not one, but two bikes? It has started. The downfall of Sky. It was always going to be EGO and it will spread like wildfire. Always is with ******nozzles with over inflated senses of self entitlement. Wigans has this happen at the Giro, he'll go full *** like Froome and Porte have done. Or better, he'll give in. Throw in the towel and switch focus to the Tour. Now that is what I hope happens.

To the person crying a page back about mechanicals determining races. Wake up and examine history. Carlos Sastre said nobody ever waited for him when he had a mechanical. Did he chuck a tantrum? Nobody waited for Evans in the 2009 Vuelta. He kept riding didn't he? Throw a bike or have a hissy fit and refuse to talk to people? Nope. Get over it and move on and build a bridge. The best rider won and your boy CHOKED.

Marginal gains...yeah right. When Andy Schleck dropped his chain in the 2010 Tour he was blamed for it on this forum. Only the fanboys believed he wasn't at fault. How about people stop accommodating the Skybots and trolls who are too dense to wake up to reality. Wigans did a Wigan. Nibali played like Man Utd. Call it what it is, don't make BS excuses for a team who are doping to their eyeballs and excusing it with marginal gains. That doesn't cut it here. Least of all when they supposedly cannot setup two bikes for their big gun. They be lying to you all. Quit buying it and feeding the mongoloids around here who have kept this thread running for 18,500 posts now.

As I said. It has begun. Sky are going down. Down down down down down down and down some more. Might as well start calling them team Dirt. The cause? EGO. Was always gonna be ego. I've said it before...too many Roosters in the hen house. It's what happens when the whole team goes full ***. Sky riders are the poster children for adult insecurities in a sporting environment. This fall will be hard on some.

So sad that when people come in to sponsor and promote our sport, there are ne'er-do-wells, no hopers, losers like the poster quoted above - who all they seem to contribute to our sport is rudeness to the sponsors and their riders. You people who find it so easy to talk like this on the net should ask yourself: Could I talk like this face to face with the riders, the managers, the coaches? My guess is that you could not. Because what you say has no substance, no basis in fact and is rude - displaying a complete lack of social skills. Where are the positives? What do you do on a daily basis for our sport? Do you help kids? Do you give of your free time? Or do you just sit at home, all lonely and lost, sniping at those good people that achieve?

Both great posts which I enjoyed immeasurably, classic examples of the extremes on both sides of the argument and neither making a single word of sense.

 

[ianfra]

I thought my post made a great deal of sense. What did you not understand?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Whether or not anybody does work for children or whatever has no bearing on their right to call BS on something they think is BS. Otherwise contribution to the sport becomes a smokescreen no different to Lance's charity foundation. Galic Ho may be from the extreme end of the spectrum, but there are a lot of people who are anti-Sky here not because they're jealous haters who hate excellence, but because we are seeing history repeating, and that history tasted like a punch to the mouth before. It's fresh enough in the memory that many of us are already recoiling from it.

As Hitch said: here we have one of the most talented individuals from one of the biggest hubs in cycling. We have them working with arguably the most notorious doping doc in the history of the sport. A GT winner. And yet this is the first time they've been able to even remotely compete with - let alone defeat - a guy who was nothing on the road and climbed with the likes of Ivan Quaranta until 2009, a guy who was nothing on the road and was in fact thrown out of a GT while lying 104th for holding onto motorbikes - while our Italian turned up at the race on short notice and finished on the podium - who suddenly turned into a monolithic beast, and now a guy who turned pro at 25, and whose biggest performances were in a race where he averaged losing 5 minutes in every mountain stage to our Italian, gaining a 13 minute headstart and finishing 5 minutes behind overall.

The number of improvements and transformations at Sky are the problem. There are lots of explicable trees... but now they've become a copse, a wood, a forest, and now we have the fricking Amazon popping up in front of us.