Netserk said:If Bassons is/was a 1 and Riis is/was a 10, where would you place Froome and Wiggins, or more importantly imho how much of a gap is there between the two in your opinion?
Wiggins is a 4, Froome is an 7.
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Netserk said:If Bassons is/was a 1 and Riis is/was a 10, where would you place Froome and Wiggins, or more importantly imho how much of a gap is there between the two in your opinion?
Red Lobster said:The idea that not all athletes respond the same to this program or that program has been touted as underpinning the entire discussion around doping. It's one of the reasons doping does not create a level playing field. It has been posited that Armstrong was one such "super-responder" ... i.e., even if everybody was doing more or less the same thing, Armstrong's physiology allowed him to enjoy a significantly more pronounced benefit from doping. And thus the rejection of doping, quite apart from any moral objections ... that is, we don't want procycling to be about who has the "best" reaction to various pharmacological substances. Makes some sense on an intuitive level: if your HCT is naturally 47, how much do you stand to gain by taking it to 49? Clearly the guy starting at 39 has more low hanging fruit to pick.
So maybe Froome is just the "super-responder" du jour, and his dramatic improvement as compared to DiLuca or whoever should not be so surprising.
King Boonen said:Wiggins is a 4, Froome is an 7.
King Boonen said:Wiggins is a 4, Froome is an 7.
The Hitch said:Wiggins closer to bassons than to Riis? Maybe you misread it as Basso?
The Hitch said:Wiggins closer to bassons than to Riis? Maybe you misread it as Basso?
To recap, bassons spoke out against Armstrong.
Wiggins -attacked people for speaking out against Armstrong.
Bassons - accepted he could not contend the tour de France without doping. Nowhere in dirty tdfs
Wiggins- believes he can beat everyone who is doping anyway. Comes 4th in arguably dirtiest tdf ever.
Bassons - sees that everyone is still doping and says so.
Wiggo- sees that everyone is still doping but claims they're all clean and attacks journos for focusing on that.
Riis-miraculously transforms to gt winner from nothing late in career.
Wiggins --miraculously transforms to gt winner from nothing late in career
King Boonen said:It's people who repeat wins, on very varied courses, year after year that make me more suspicious.
The Hitch said:what luck did Wiggins get? He outclimbing Nibali so it clearly can't be the extra 40k of tt you are talking about?
The Hitch said:Riis only won 1 tdf as well. I don't see how a guy with 1 tdf and 2(1) other gt podium(s) is closer to bassons a guy who won 1 dauphine stage, than he is to a fellow tdf winner.
King Boonen said:Wiggins win was a boring grind with a great support team backing him up, but of recent TdF wins I still see it as the most likely to be clean (That does not mean I think it was).
Netserk said:Having him closer to Bassons does make it seem like you think there's a higher chance that he is clean, than there is of him being dirty.
...
The reason Riis was 10 was because 10 years later there wasn't any official proof that he was doping, but it was so obvious that no one could have any doubt. So a 10 is being as certain as one can be without proof that said rider is a doper.
the sceptic said:Bassons 1
Riis 9
Wiggins 9.9
Dawg 10
Grupetto1 said:I'm sure Digger will love this photo!
The Hitch said:Its not optimism to believe that a guy who having ridden 4 gts in his first 5 years on the road admitted publicly that the highest he could ever hope to acheive in a gt was a tt win, and told Kimmage privately that gts just weren't for him, then ends up riding Peyresoudes faster than Contador Rasmussen, winning an olympic tt while chronically underweight and winning every stage race he targets in a 5 month period.
But Wiggins falls outside the curve on all of them. He's one of the few who continued to ride insane speeds while the rest slow down. He's one of the ones immune from fatigue. He's still practicing old school omerta. He's still praising the dopers while others speak out. He's the one that underwent an exclusively epo era transformation.
The very reasons that tell us the sport may be cleaner, uncover Wiggins as a total 1990's -2000's era cycling prototype.
King Boonen said:Nope, I think what Wiggins achieved is possible, in fact is the most likely of recent winners. He has the pedigree to be a GT rider, that is clear from his track performances, he worked very hard
the sceptic said:Bassons 1
Riis 9
Wiggins 9.9
Dawg 10
the sceptic said:Bassons 1
Riis 9
Wiggins 9.9
Dawg 10
tweak37 said:Even for a hyperbole it's a bit silly to put Wiggins and Froome above Riis, isn't it? Although it depends, are we looking at Riis with the knowledge of 1996, 1998, 2004, 2007? Since 2007 he is of the charts, in 2004 he would have been a 10, given the facts that the stories about him were widely known at the time and it was clear that EPO was used en masse in the 90s. Before that, well it depends on what you knew, but I'm sure not many people would have given him a 10 in 1996. Not compared to the amount of Froome sceptics these days anyway.
It is nice though to quantify things. I would give Froome 8, and Wiggins 7. 2014 Contador gets an 8 too, losing some points compared to 2011 for being not so strong last year and my general naivete about rider's intentions after a suspension. But no performance of Froome wil get him a 9 (let alone a 10). I don't think it adds much to Froome's case that he is already doing 6,7 w/kg and so on. We already know what he is capable of.
TailWindHome said:How can Wiggins & Froome be more suspect than someone who has confessed?
Riis by definition must be a 10
Wiggins/ Froome can't rate any higher than 9.9999999999999999999999etc
Dear Wiggo said:Despite racing a 4km prologue (the exact same distance his "pedigree" was developed on) and getting his a55 handed to him?
Good grief.
King Boonen said:this is the problem with this section of the forum and this thread. People like you who are fully aware of these facts yet just want to try and put down any defense of a Sky rider no matter what so you make ridiculous statements and claims.
King Boonen said:He lost by 7 seconds to Cancellara, how exactly is that having his *** handed to him?
King Boonen said:Tony Martin must be rubbish then, and Chavanel, and Van Garderen...
King Boonen said:He'd lost weight so he could deliver over longer periods of time which no doubt results in the loss of some explosive power.
King Boonen said:You then have the fact that riding a prologue is pretty different to a 4k race on the track which is just about delivering a constant power and maintaining it or ramping it up. It requires better bike handling skills and explosiveness out of the corners, something we know Wiggins doesn't possess.
King Boonen said:At least Hitch will back up his view with valid reasons that we might disagree on but can be argued for either side, we might disagree but I respect his opinion and he's tempered my view of things in the past.