Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[neineinei]

good post.

we already knew the ztp was a smokescreen, but i agree with you that the knaven-case seems to cement it.

here's Sky's staff line-up for the 2012 Dauphine which of course Wiggins won:
DS: Sean Yates
2nd DS: Servais Knaven
Doctor: Geert Leinders

While Knaven was never at Rabo, he may have had good contacts with Leinders (language brings people together).

Otoh, Leinders may of course turn out to be a red herring in the larger scheme of things. I mean there are more roads that lead to Rome. Still, I think the Sky-Lowlands link (de jongh, leinders, knaven) is salient.

Walsh has said it was de Jongh who recommended Leinders.

https://twitter.com/festinagirl/status/313210048241360896

+

+ ztp = no problem

95 % or Dutch riders doped during the EPO era says the Dutch Anti-Doping Commission

Still Knaven won the Dutch national championship in 1995 and made TVMs TdF team in 1996, 1997 and 1998 while clean.

 

[Justinr]

it was my ambiguous formulation, but to be sure i was more hinting at Knaven having a good relationship with Leinders whilst working for Sky.
Perhaps that's why they kept knaven? (pure speculation, i know)
Btw, I don't know exactly what a 'logistics' base is supposed to be, but according to Wikipedia Team Sky have one in Belgium.

I thought that was where they ran the classics team from.

 

[bobbins]

I thought that was where they ran the classics team from.

The service course has moved to Nice. Not sure if they still have a classics base, probably not as they don't really race the classics.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

some people are pure Wigans fans

It's after rides like this it strikes you Wiggins palmares, impressive though it is, may understimate what he might have done

Which says that if he doped properly earlier who knows how many races he would've won......

Missed this earlier.

I'd say that person is clearly a complete and utter fan of Wiggins, and trusts Wiggins' palmares explicitly.

I cannot fathom any other sane interpretation.

The only way they could be more fawning is if they compared him to Merckx or Coppi.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The service course has moved to Nice. Not sure if they still have a classics base, probably not as they don't really race the classics.

Lol, touché.

 

[Justinr]

Lol, touché.

Well i meant the non GT team, but either way it seems I was wrong ...

 

[Benotti69]

...............It's where they keep the spanners.
(Like The Clinic)

Your sniping and sneering at the clinic is pathetic for someone who posts a lot in it.

Attacking the messengers is so sad and old.

 

[Benotti69]

Missed this earlier.

I'd say that person is clearly a complete and utter fan of Wiggins, and trusts Wiggins' palmares explicitly.

I cannot fathom any other sane interpretation.

The only way they could be more fawning is if they compared him to Merckx or Coppi.

That person is Vickers. He posted it on his twitter where you will find rampant devotion to sky.....

 

[martinvickers]

Missed this earlier.

I'd say that person is clearly a complete and utter fan of Wiggins, and trusts Wiggins' palmares explicitly.

I cannot fathom any other sane interpretation.

The only way they could be more fawning is if they compared him to Merckx or Coppi.

Actually, I wrote it, and you're wrong. Not for the first time, but still.

My points were simply the fairly obvious point that unlike a lot of racers, Wiggins motivation seems to flash up and down rather dramatically, and always has done; moreover he clearly put a lot of efforts in his earlier years into track rather than road, thus reducing his possible road palmares. His impressive but not amazing 9th at Roubaix was in its way a more natural Wiggins/converted pursuiter race to me than a GT.

You're free to disagree. Whichever butters your muffins.

 

[martinvickers]

Your sniping and sneering at the clinic is pathetic for someone who posts a lot in it.

Attacking the messengers is so sad and old.

Benotti, please....seriously!

 

[Benotti69]

Benotti, please....seriously!

Reverend Ian Vickers says NO!!!!!

 

[therhodeo]

His impressive but not amazing 9th at Roubaix was in its way a more natural Wiggins/converted pursuiter race to me than a GT.

I don't disagree with that at all.

 

[Justinr]

Wiggins motivation seems to flash up and down rather dramatically, and always has done;

Its a point I have made a few times - as usual to much ridicule. Wiggins is an odd sod and this has been admitted publicly by Sutton. In his early years he couldn't cope with the fame after the 2004 Olympics and spent months drunk. Later on (and consistently over the years) he suffered from lack of confidence causing a slap dash attitude to training and hence variable results.

A lot of this goes to understanding his up and down form and bigger increase when someone finally got him on the straight and narrow. Of course to a lot of people this variation and subsequent improvement = doping, but hey that's their view.

 

[nomapnocompass]

"Of course to a lot of people this variation and subsequent improvement = doping"

No, to a lot of people the ability to finish 4th in one of the most doped up TdF in living memory ( 2009 ) coming from nowhere as a GT rider = doping

 

[the sceptic]

"Of course to a lot of people this variation and subsequent improvement = doping"

No, to a lot of people the ability to finish 4th in one of the most doped up TdF in living memory ( 2009 ) coming from nowhere as a GT rider = doping

If Wiggins was cleans then so was Andy Schleck. But then how does one explain that he can barely get over a speedbump these days?

Obviously both of them being dopers makes much more sense.

 

[peloton]

If Wiggins was cleans then so was Andy Schleck. But then how does one explain that he can barely get over a speedbump these days?

Obviously both of them being dopers makes much more sense.

To Andy's credit he did show promise early on, and after his bad crash has completely lost his mojo. That's still much more believable than say Froome & Wiggo popping out of nowhere, the former making a transformation never seen before in the sport.
Dr. Leinders was hired for good a reason.

 

[Justinr]

To Andy's credit he did show promise early on, and after his bad crash has completely lost his mojo. That's still much more believable than say Froome & Wiggo popping out of nowhere, the former making a transformation never seen before in the sport.
Dr. Leinders was hired for good a reason.

Yes and here we go again - full circle in The Clinic. As we all know Wiggins improved long before he was at Sky, and Froome had a blood parasite on and off for a couple of years (and one that doesn't always get cleared with one treatment). Shall we all click back to page 1?

 

[del1962]

To Andy's credit he did show promise early on, and after his bad crash has completely lost his mojo. That's still much more believable than say Froome & Wiggo popping out of nowhere, the former making a transformation never seen before in the sport.
Dr. Leinders was hired for good a reason.

Not sure how a multiple Olympic medallist popped out from nowhere

nvm, had this discussion many times, anyway what about Andy's bro paying Fuentes?

(Though there is an Andy thread to discuss Andy)

 

[red_flanders]

Not sure how a multiple Olympic medallist popped out from nowhere

I'm pretty sure if Sebastian Coe won the Olympic marathon people would say he "came out of nowhere".

 

[Justinr]

Not sure how a multiple Olympic medallist popped out from nowhere

nvm, had this discussion many times, anyway what about Andy's bro paying Fuentes?

(Though there is an Andy thread to discuss Andy)

Well that was Frank not Andy - they are different people. Although given they have been on the same team since 2005 they may as well have been the same person. Now, this may be a sweeping generalisation but I think its a fair assumption that whatever one was doing the other would have known about.

 

[Justinr]

I'm pretty sure if Sebastian Coe won the Olympic marathon people would say he "came out of nowhere".

Well in cycling such a thing is much more likely than in running. In running you physically have to lift your own body weight with each stride, in cycling you don't - you're on a machine that will continue to roll so the physical effort is much less. I guess its like a 200m swimmer all of a sudden being top at the 10k swim. No idea if that is possible or if it has been done.

Its a good and valid comment though, but would have had much more effect if it had been Hoy that won the Tour or if Wiggins had been a top class sprint rider (and not a TT or pursuit rider).

 

[Justinr]

"Of course to a lot of people this variation and subsequent improvement = doping"

No, to a lot of people the ability to finish 4th in one of the most doped up TdF in living memory ( 2009 ) coming from nowhere as a GT rider = doping

Just a slight aside, why do you say the 2009 TdF was the most doped up? Why more so than 2005 or 06 or 07 (or any other recent year).

 

[sniper]

Just a slight aside, why do you say the 2009 TdF was the most doped up?

he doesn't say that

 

[Nathan12]

Just a slight aside, why do you say the 2009 TdF was the most doped up? Why more so than 2005 or 06 or 07 (or any other recent year).

It was one of the most doped, up to a point. Contador, Armstrong, the Schlecks and Kloden were clearly all cooking, probably Nibali and Kreuziger too. Apart from that it's a weird race- Casar and Le Mevel top 10, even Hincapie cracks the top 20. But to hang at the pointy end of that race was to hang with some of the finest dopers ever.

As an aside of my own, I'd love to know from Vaughters how Vande Velde got so good by stopping doping.

 

[the sceptic]

To Andy's credit he did show promise early on, and after his bad crash has completely lost his mojo. That's still much more believable than say Froome & Wiggo popping out of nowhere, the former making a transformation never seen before in the sport.
Dr. Leinders was hired for good a reason.

I dont disagree. But still, does anyone actually think Andy was clean?