Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[djpbaltimore]

Way to go attacking the wrong poster for obfuscation.

With all due respect, I didn't attack either poster, just one of the arguments that I found disingenuous based on the context of the discussion.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

This isn't meant to be too serious...

There are two riders (LeMond and Mig) who've won the Tour de l'Avenir since 1979 who've subsequently won the Tour de France. This is the same number of riders (LeMond and Wiggo) who have medalled in the World Junior IP and then won the Tour de France.

So maybe being a good junior pursuiter is not such a bad indicator of Tour potential. Or maybe the Tour de l'Avenir is rather misnamed, as it's not a very good predictor either.

However, other Avenir winners have become GT winners, just not at the Tour.

Even if we exclude Fignon (who won the Giro in '89 after winning Avenir, but who was already a multiple GT winner before winning Avenir), you have Lemond, Indurain, Casero, Menchov and Quintana. Others have podiumed. The calibre of winners in terms of going on to compete in GTs seems to have improved again since becoming an U23 race; in days past you could see riders winning who wouldn't be eligible to race now, and in many respects the race was like the Circuito Montáñes was, but with a much, much better field: some older, more experienced national circuit riders could often get a good GC, mixed in with some of the best prospects.

If you widen it to Avenir podium riders, there are also riders like Millar, Ugrumov, Jalabert and Landis to count; it also varies quite a lot year-on-year as to who the course suits; some years people like Assan Bazayev and Samuel Dumoulin make the podium, which isn't a great advert for the GC of the future aspect of the race.

Using 1979 as a cutoff date also has some problems in that you have to factor the Ostbloc riders in, who could not ride the Tour. Sergey Sukhoruchenkov won it in 1979 (having already won in 1978 at around his 22nd birthday) and podiumed 1980 and 1981 too; as the greatest climber the East ever produced (and it isn't even close), who could tell what he could have done with access to professional resources? The Soviet team of the late 70s and early 80s picked up a lot of podium places, although only Ugrumov in 1987 went on to be able to compete in the Grand Tours after the Wende. You've also got the Colombian amateurs to take into account; in the amateur/open péloton they were able to be more competitive; while the quality at the top may have been high, the depth was not the same as at the Grand Tours, so the ability of the pack to control them was not the same as in the professional bunch; we all know of the escapades of the great Colombians of the 80s, but GC-wise many of them were too limited to compete unless their climbing was so great they could overcome their limitations (see: Herrera, Lucho).

 

[Benotti69]

With all due respect, I didn't attack either poster, just one of the arguments that I found disingenuous based on the context of the discussion.

The context is if you have been following Wigans development in the clinic is the argument that Wigans showed GT winning potential because he won IP Gold.

IP and GT abilities are not related. A rider needs to make an effort everyday from day 1 of a GT and every day after that effort becomes harder, without doping.

 

[ray j willings]

GT riders tend to be quite decent at ITT. Contador ,Armstrong, Evans all not to shabby.

ITT riders tend to lose out once the road go's up.

You would have thought FC would have made a better GT contender than Wiggo.

 

[samhocking]

GT riders tend to be quite decent at ITT. Contador ,Armstrong, Evans all not to shabby.

ITT riders tend to lose out once the road go's up.

You would have thought FC would have made a better GT contender than Wiggo.

Fabian has said himself, just as Wiggins does today, that he doesn't want to sacrifice so much of the winter with his family and the spring classics in order to keep his weight down to be a GT contender in the summer. Would have been interesting to see him do a Wiggins though at least once in his career.

 

[Benotti69]

GT riders tend to be quite decent at ITT. Contador ,Armstrong, Evans all not to shabby.

all dopers.....................

 

[djpbaltimore]

You think now that Wigans has shown the progression from Olympic pursuit Gold to TdF winner more would follow..........i mean it is pretty simple once you have that big engine to race for 4kms then extend it to 4000kms and bingo TdF winner.



Evans the Ferrari client? As i said Wigans in good company.



sure, no other teams apart from Sky has talent. If only Braky raced in sandshoes as a youngster!

The context is if you have been following Wigans development in the clinic is the argument that Wigans showed GT winning potential because he won IP Gold.

IP and GT abilities are not related. A rider needs to make an effort everyday from day 1 of a GT and every day after that effort becomes harder, without doping.

I never claimed that IP gold was the best indicator of success in GTs. To my point, the immediate context was your sarcastic remark that maximal efforts over 4km are not relevant to a 4000km race. The following post disagreed saying that the maximal efforts to win a TDF are more akin to IP because they are actually shorter bursts within the race and not 4000km. This opinion then got spun to suggest that only short bursts are required to win a TDF, which was never stated by the original poster. To me this is twisting words to try to ridicule someone for something they didn't really say, so I weighed in with my opinion.

 

[MarkvW]

Wouldn't the "evidence" presented here against Sky indicate every other team in the peleton is also a doped team?

 

[Benotti69]

I never claimed that IP gold was the best indicator of success in GTs. To my point, the immediate context was your sarcastic remark that maximal efforts over 4km are not relevant to a 4000km race.

They are not.

The following post disagreed saying that the maximal efforts to win a TDF are more akin to IP because they are actually shorter bursts within the race and not 4000km. This opinion then got spun to suggest that only short bursts are required to win a TDF, which was never stated by the original poster. To me this is twisting words to try to ridicule someone for something they didn't really say, so I weighed in with my opinion.

Last time the TdF was ridden with short incremental bursts was before EPO when riders didn't start racing till the TV cameras got switched on.

Nowadays and for the last 2 decades the TdF is ridden hard from the off!

 

[Benotti69]

Wouldn't the "evidence" presented here against Sky indicate every other team in the peleton is also a doped team?

Yet to see any argue that the others (except those blind to Garmin) are clean. The others certainly dont proclaim it like Sky (or Garmin)....

 

[Parker]

Last time the TdF was ridden with short incremental bursts was before EPO when riders didn't start racing till the TV cameras got switched on.

Nowadays and for the last 2 decades the TdF is ridden hard from the off!

Yet people are always complaining that the GC riders nowadays all wait until the final climb.
And on the sprint stages a break of non-descript French or wildcard riders usually gets away pretty easily in the first 15k
There are ferocious scraps at the beginning of the medium stages, I grant you.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Because everytime people like me ask for any kind of evidence we get insulted, called various stupid names and the same BS repeated verbatim.

No. It's more because despite being native English speaking people, they do not understand the difference between, "evidence" and "proof".

 

[djpbaltimore]

They are not.




Last time the TdF was ridden with short incremental bursts was before EPO when riders didn't start racing till the TV cameras got switched on.

Nowadays and for the last 2 decades the TdF is ridden hard from the off!

You obviously are missing my larger point that whether the argument is sound or not, intentionally distorting someone's argument to score points is not appropriate. Some IP skills are translatable to the road, but nobody ever said that ONLY short bursts were sufficient to win a GT.

 

[MatParker117]

No. It's more because despite being native English speaking people, they do not understand the difference between, "evidence" and "proof".

There is no difference proof is a synonym of evidence.

 

[Parker]

No. It's more because despite being native English speaking people, they do not understand the difference between, "evidence" and "proof".

And you don't seem to understand the difference between 'evidence' and 'cause for suspicion'.

Furthermore 'evidence' varies in its quality. Almost all presented here is of the weak circumstantial variety.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

There is no difference proof is a synonym of evidence.

Case in point.

Good effing grief.

I bet you didn't even check their definitions before posting that.

 

[42x16ss]

There is no difference proof is a synonym of evidence.

I'm going to put this to bed once and for all.

proof noun (SHOWING TRUTH)

B2 [C or U] a fact or piece of information that shows that something exists or is true

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/proof_1



evidence noun uk /ˈev.ɪ.dəns/ us

B2 one or more reasons for believing that something is or is not true

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/evidence

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I'm going to put this to bed once and for all.

Yeah nah I did a whole thread on the concept, and red flanders had a post that pwnt people through the planet about it.

But when MattParker can so blithely state what he does, you know there's a rubber barrier to this kind of stuff.

Makes the whole, "DB said this it must be true" swallow phenomenon a little more understandable.

 

[42x16ss]

Yeah nah I did a whole thread on the concept, and red flanders had a post that pwnt people through the planet about it.

But when MattParker can so blithely state what he does, you know there's a rubber barrier to this kind of stuff.

Makes the whole, "DB said this it must be true" swallow phenomenon a little more understandable.

Hmmm. Maybe if I use it as a sig?

 

[TailWindHome]

I'm going to put this to bed once and for all.

I'd doubt it

 

[42x16ss]

Wouldn't the "evidence" presented here against Sky indicate every other team in the peleton is also a doped team?

Yeah, pretty much... At least at WT level anyway.

 

[the sceptic]

Hmmm. Maybe if I use it as a sig?

I think you'd have more luck trying to convert religious people.

 

[TailWindHome]

B2 one or more reasons for believing that something is or is not true

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/evidence

Red Flander's definition is more complete

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1626000&postcount=2157

ev·i·dence
noun
1. The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

or

Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion.

 

[42x16ss]

I'd doubt it

I think you'd have more luck trying to convert religious people.

It seems you're correct....

 

[TheSpud]

Good god

That is some astonishing ignorance.

Ironically ebandit made this same idiotic comment (while hijacked by joachim).

If you ever strayed outside of this subforum, read some actual interviews with domestiques, gt contenders, coaches, damn near anyone in the sport, you might realize how stupid what you just said is.

Every gt rider is pretty clear about having to be on top form for every stage in a gt (including wiggins who said he has to be 90% every day). No one just coasts along 2500km of flat in a gt. It would totally defeat the purpose of the flat being there.

No, gt riders do not just ride dozen 45 minute efforts. They ride the complete thing and every cm they go over contributes to the exhaustion.

Why is that astonishing ignorance when talking about a team leader in the tour (or any GT)? Would they put their leader out front day after day, or would they protect him in the peloton as the domestiques that they were? Everyone knows that in the vacuum that is the peloton you use a lot less energy, so I don't think its ridiculous to claim what TWH is saying. A tour contender doesn't need to go full gas for most of the race - just at certain times.