Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Wiggo weight loss us taken from his 06 and 07 tours when he dedicated his entire years to doing well at the tour and didn't ride a single track event for 2 years. So no he wasn't an overweight track rider. Point dismissed.

He was world champion in 2007?

I know he was. He also did give up track for 2 years around the 2006 Tour de France, something doping apologists hate to see brought up because it destroys the original weak wiggo defense of - he became good in 2009 because he finally stopped being a track rider, not that that would be a half decent explanation anyway.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Starting point of Madone is not a secret, even Ferrari explained it

This article quoted by Cyclingtips says exactly the same "you will come to the tiny village of 'le castagnins' , start the stopwatch from the hairpin over the small bridge" http://www.cycle2max.com/bike-hill-climb/THE-Madone-(col-de-la-Madone).aspx?id=454

Cyclingtips "We’ve done a bit of asking around and it would seem that the local pros start their watches in the tiny village of Le Castagnins on the D22. There are a couple of bus stops there that the pros apparently use as a landmark with the climbing starting at a bridge before the first switchback a few hundred metres later."

Finish is at the col sign at the summit...

Hmm. So Spud was wrong to claim no one knows where to start Madone and that Froome and Porte probably started somewhere closer to the finish.

Wonder if he will aknowledge it, or just disapear off the forum waiting to find some other holes to poke.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

This reminds me of JV's attempt at 'marginal gains' discussing his lament he did not have enough money to wind tunnel test climbing position.

I'm pretty sure we'll hear about it again in 2015 when EPO climbing records fall in races by the usual suspects.

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Hmm. So Spud was wrong to claim no one knows where to start Madone and that Froome and Porte probably started somewhere closer to the finish.

Wonder if he will aknowledge it, or just disapear off the forum waiting to find some other holes to poke.

No i wont acknowledge it because i didnt claim noone knows where to start it or that Froome / Porte started somewhere closer to the finish. What i asked was whethe there ws a defined start or not, and i did say is that we dont know who started where and these were all self reported times. Anyway, how are you getting on posting those links to studies saying that it isnt possible to lose weight whilst maintaining power that were requested a few weeks back?

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

If any one arguing about start points had actually ridden half of these climbs you would know exactly where the start and end points are for the climbs because they are marked on the roads as you ride them
if you ride ventoux there is a mark at the side of the road at the start and a line at the top
the same for Alpe d huez, although most people get an incorrect time as the route you take on public roads is longer than the one they use in the tour as they close roads for the tour and go down a one way street. The same for the Telegraph and Galibier and Columbier etc, etc, etc. Just go to france and get on a bike and you will see.

Likewise with most of the climbs in and around Nice where a lot of the pro's have houses and house share in the off season and train together. Which is one of the reasons they do these time trials together, it is for bragging rights and beers the same as any sunday club ride racing up your local hill or doing sprints on the way home. They are still big kids playing out on their bikes at heart.
This is actually one of the reasons I cannot think that any one team or rider has any major incredible secrets to increasing performance which are not illegal. As the entire pro peleton is a closely knit family and new things are talked about and discussed and mentioned across the board by riders from different teams training together in their off seasons and in between racing.

Or did you think they all just sat at home waiting for the team to organise every single minute of every day.

 

[McLovin]

All the major climbs in France have indicators after each km. Last summer I did Col de Bassachaux, a never used climb in the Tour or Dauphine, and it had infos every km. At the bottom of Corbier and Avoriaz I saw even description of the climbs.

 

[ferryman]

Hey Spud, I'm enjoying your spirited defense of all things Sky against all odds. Please keep it up, it is very entertaining.
50 shades of Grey but never into the black. I think Neil Young sang it better....

But we do need different opinions on here so keep it going please..

 

[TheSpud]

Re:

Hey Spud, I'm enjoying your spirited defense of all things Sky against all odds. Please keep it up, it is very entertaining.
50 shades of Grey but never into the black. I think Neil Young sang it better....

But we do need different opinions on here so keep it going please..

I aim to please ...

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Hmm. So Spud was wrong to claim no one knows where to start Madone and that Froome and Porte probably started somewhere closer to the finish.

Wonder if he will aknowledge it, or just disapear off the forum waiting to find some other holes to poke.

No i wont acknowledge it because i didnt claim noone knows where to start it or that Froome / Porte started somewhere closer to the finish. What i asked was whethe there ws a defined start or not, and i did say is that we dont know who started where and these were all self reported times. Anyway, how are you getting on posting those links to studies saying that it isnt possible to lose weight whilst maintaining power that were requested a few weeks back?

it is common knowledge that that is very difficult without doping. not impossible. 1kg, 2, perhaps even 4 or 5kg.
While that is widely known to be extremely difficult at top level without loss of some power, experienced people like Eric Boyer have suggested that losing 7kg without loss of power at the top level is not possible without doping.
if you don't agree with that assessment from an experienced insider, you should be providing links (rather asking for links) to studies showing that it is possible.

you should also provide some reasoning for why you think Wiggins would go through all sorts of hardcore abstention diets to lose weight without loss of power (the possibility/existence of which you are yet to demonstrate), if he can just take undetectable drugs.
You haven't yet provided any insights into why you think Wiggins would be diametrically different from Armstrong, the guy whom he showed so much admiration for prior to the USADA file.

to briefly summarize: you're all over the place.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

This reminds me of JV's attempt at 'marginal gains' discussing his lament he did not have enough money to wind tunnel test climbing position.

I'm pretty sure we'll hear about it again in 2015 when EPO climbing records fall in races by the usual suspects.

Boy, I must have missed that.

I, personally, had enough money to pay for wind tunnel testing of climbing positions. There may not be as much to gain while climbing, but you spend a lot more time in a climbing position than you do on a TT bike. 'Climbing position' tests, of course, are identical to the road bike 'flat position/standard riding' tests.

Once you are in the tunnel, a series of body position only tests with no equipment changes is effectively free.

Moreover, for a pro cycling team a wind tunnel session would be a rounding error in their annual budget. Not utilizing a wind tunnel is deserving of a bonehead of the year award. That is, at least, if you are not doping. Doping gains far outweigh wind tunnel based refinements. However, even bog dopies like Lance still utilized the tunnel. The wind tunnel is far cheaper than good dope (sic), Motoman expenses, storage fridges, private planes, etc.

As someone who is often supporting JV, if he actually mad a statement to that effect, it is indefensible.

Dave.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

The new guys have aero wheels.

They need them.

They are going way faster.

Dave.

I'm surprised they don't use a really aggressive crit set-up now, because they hit the switchbacks like they're a GP Motorbike. I wouldn't be surprised to see Froome wearing kneepads so he can get really aggressive.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

The new guys have aero wheels.

They need them.

They are going way faster.

Dave.

I'm surprised they don't use a really aggressive crit set-up now, because they hit the switchbacks like they're a GP Motorbike. I wouldn't be surprised to see Froome wearing kneepads so he can get really aggressive.

Perfect - the return of the crit frame!

Dave.

PS: How are the exams going?

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

Hmm. So Spud was wrong to claim no one knows where to start Madone and that Froome and Porte probably started somewhere closer to the finish.

Wonder if he will aknowledge it, or just disapear off the forum waiting to find some other holes to poke.

No i wont acknowledge it because i didnt claim noone knows where to start it or that Froome / Porte started somewhere closer to the finish. What i asked was whethe there ws a defined start or not, and i did say is that we dont know who started where and these were all self reported times. Anyway, how are you getting on posting those links to studies saying that it isnt possible to lose weight whilst maintaining power that were requested a few weeks back?

You're dancin' so pretty, I want to stick a bill in your garter...

You may not acknowledge it, but everyone here acknowledges that you're being disingenuous about what you suggested...

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

The new guys have aero wheels.

They need them.

They are going way faster.

Dave.

I'm surprised they don't use a really aggressive crit set-up now, because they hit the switchbacks like they're a GP Motorbike. I wouldn't be surprised to see Froome wearing kneepads so he can get really aggressive.

Perfect - the return of the crit frame!

Dave.

PS: How are the exams going?

Done...now I wait for May 15th when we get the results.

I've got an old Cannondale 2.8 with the dropouts behind the seat stays if Froome needs one...it rides a little harsh, but you can divebomb that motherfucker into any turn on the planet.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

But Armstrong had the gear shifters on the frame.

and had hard pillows...

It was to save weight.....they didn't have such super lightweight bikes as they have now.....that's why they can go uphill faster now than in Armstrongs day

read the Dr Ferrari comments about bike weight and wheels

Despite " no-doping era" cyclists go faster than previous riders , but I remember Rominger's bike was 2-3 kgs heavier and wheels less performant than today.

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=forum.thread&id=7122

 

[the sceptic]

haha, so Richie climed the madone a minute faster than Lance?

please skyfans, try to explain how this can be done clean.

edit: I just scrolled past all the bickers trolling but it appears this has been discussed at length already

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

to briefly summarize: you're all over the place.

Really?

The position put across was that Sky must be using illegal weight loss drugs (eg AICAR) since its not possible to lose weight without losing power. The one link thats posted is Eric Boyer - granted an experienced rider / manager - alluding to certain riders, and saying its not possible.

My position is that I dont think they are using AICAR for a number of reasons:

1. I believe they are a team that wants to race "clean" *
2. It is possible to lose weight and maintain power using cortisone. This, as we know, isnt banned OOC.
3. They are probably combining (2) with other things (Telmisartan, or similar).

* by "clean" I don't mean they haven't been chemically helped. They have always talked about pushing things to the limit / going right to wire / etc. - which means no banned substances / methods. That still leaves one hell of a grey area to work in. In the past that may have been Tramadol, Xenon, playing TUE rules to the max, who knows what else. Illegal - no, unethical - i would have thought so. Entirely consistent with Sutton's comments.

And just going back to (2) - page 60 in the CIRC report states this and that it has been used lately for a GT win with the approval of the team's management. Perhaps a team that wanted to push the limits within the rules? And also Tyler mentioned that by changing his training (under Cecco) to include more intervals he was able to increase his power, something people probably would have thought unlikely given the already highly trained state he was in. So power improvements possible by incredibly fit cyclists claimed by an experienced ex-rider. Weight loss without power loss possible using OOC cortisone claimed in an official report. All certainly as believable as Mr Boyer's claims.

So no, I dont think I am all over the place. In fact i have been completely consistent.

Anyway, of for a few days in the Alps now so you wont hear from me (wanted to let Hitch know).

 

[TheSpud]

Re:

haha, so Richie climed the madone a minute faster than Lance?

please skyfans, try to explain how this can be done clean.

edit: I just scrolled past all the bickers trolling but it appears this has been discussed at length already

Bickers - is that the spanish pronunciation of Vickers?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

read the Dr Ferrari comments about bike weight and wheels

Despite " no-doping era" cyclists go faster than previous riders , but I remember Rominger's bike was 2-3 kgs heavier and wheels less performant than today.

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=forum.thread&id=7122

So, given te mathematic 'rule' a kilo less means 20 seconds faster on a forty minute climb that would means our friend Ritchie was 40 seconds faster than one of the biggest Ferrari experiments of all time.

Sounds great.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

read the Dr Ferrari comments about bike weight and wheels

Despite " no-doping era" cyclists go faster than previous riders , but I remember Rominger's bike was 2-3 kgs heavier and wheels less performant than today.

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=forum.thread&id=7122

So, given te mathematic 'rule' a kilo less means 20 seconds faster on a forty minute climb that would means our friend Ritchie was 40 seconds faster than one of the biggest Ferrari experiments of all time.

Sounds great.

Oh it is great. TeamSky play the 'grey area' which means they are doping but we haven't found out their doping methods to the full extent. If people think OOC cortisone can beat the Madone times of Armstrong and Rominger they really are living in lalaland.

The very idea that Wiggins came from a 3+hr on TdF winners to the podium with a bit of the oul OOC cortisone or Froome hanging off motorbikes was transformed by a OOC cortisone to TdF winner is really laughable, belly aching laughable.

I mean these guys were trashing Ferrari's Astana FFS. They made Nibali look average and some want to tell us it is OOC cortisone? FO.

 

[the sceptic]

just wait until Dawg and Richie go mutant in Catalunya. I expect some fireworks there. Maybe Richie wants to take over that tour leadership.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

Oh it is great. TeamSky play the 'grey area' which means they are doping but we haven't found out their doping methods to the full extent. If people think OOC cortisone can beat the Madone times of Armstrong and Rominger they really are living in lalaland.

The very idea that Wiggins came from a 3+hr on TdF winners to the podium with a bit of the oul OOC cortisone or Froome hanging off motorbikes was transformed by a OOC cortisone to TdF winner is really laughable, belly aching laughable.

I mean these guys were trashing Ferrari's Astana FFS. They made Nibali look average and some want to tell us it is OOC cortisone? FO.

I say Boardman

 

[frenchfry]

Sweet dreams spud

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

to briefly summarize: you're all over the place.

Really?

The position put across was that Sky must be using illegal weight loss drugs (eg AICAR) since its not possible to lose weight without losing power. The one link thats posted is Eric Boyer - granted an experienced rider / manager - alluding to certain riders, and saying its not possible.

My position is that I dont think they are using AICAR for a number of reasons:

1. I believe they are a team that wants to race "clean" *
2. It is possible to lose weight and maintain power using cortisone. This, as we know, isnt banned OOC.
3. They are probably combining (2) with other things (Telmisartan, or similar).

* by "clean" I don't mean they haven't been chemically helped. They have always talked about pushing things to the limit / going right to wire / etc. - which means no banned substances / methods. That still leaves one hell of a grey area to work in. In the past that may have been Tramadol, Xenon, playing TUE rules to the max, who knows what else. Illegal - no, unethical - i would have thought so. Entirely consistent with Sutton's comments.

And just going back to (2) - page 60 in the CIRC report states this and that it has been used lately for a GT win with the approval of the team's management. Perhaps a team that wanted to push the limits within the rules? And also Tyler mentioned that by changing his training (under Cecco) to include more intervals he was able to increase his power, something people probably would have thought unlikely given the already highly trained state he was in. So power improvements possible by incredibly fit cyclists claimed by an experienced ex-rider. Weight loss without power loss possible using OOC cortisone claimed in an official report. All certainly as believable as Mr Boyer's claims.

So no, I dont think I am all over the place. In fact i have been completely consistent.

Anyway, of for a few days in the Alps now so you wont hear from me (wanted to let Hitch know).

(NB: Am trying to argue the point(s) in the post, and not the poster. If it appears otherwise, that is not the intent)

On #2, I am not going to do even a quick Google search. But, while someone(s) may be trying this, longer-term use of Cortisone is correlated with serious tissue/muscle loss, bone demineralisation, reduced protein synthesis, etc. issues. At least it did last time I looked.

So, it is possible that someone or some team could be using cortisone OOC, but only possible with serious risks.

And (without doing a quick Google, or forum, search), as I recall AICAR supposedly offers weight loss without that serious risk that cortisone produces.

The obvious question (i.e. Occam's Razor): Are we sure they (whoever they are) aren't using AICAR while stating that they use cortisone?

That would make more sense, and would be consistent with past behavior (altitude tents, etc.) to hide what is really going on.

On interval training (and this is what the NB above was for):

If people "probably would have thought" that interval training wouldn't benefit a highly trained athlete, and increase power (i.e. over shorter duration), then they are idiots.

That is what interval training is all about, and always has been. <insert facepalm>

It doesn't mean, however, that an athlete employing interval training can somehow avoid or offset the deteriorating impacts of longer-term cortisone use such as would be required for any meaningful weight-loss program.

Dave.

 

[hrotha]

Re:

just wait until Dawg and Richie go mutant in Catalunya. I expect some fireworks there.

You haven't seen the puny route, have you.