Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

It was posted around on Twitter. Looked hard for it but fck me twitter is shtter.

Go back to march 13th on https://twitter.com/velocast

I hate twitter. Thanks for the link - the poster who wanted the images can hopefully find it?

 

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

That's exactly what I wanted a clarification of. Tramadol is not a banned substance. Any rider can use it as long as they get it from a doctor. No rule has been broken so I fail to see how this can look "bad". Please explain why not breaking the rules is a bad thing.

If you can't see why a rider using Tramadol only to enhance performance while Tramadol abuse is a known issue in the peloton then I'm afraid I can't help you...

No and it seems like you can't help yourself. I know the prevailing knowledge in the clinic is Sky are full of dopers, cheat with the backing of national and international federations and some probably even think they have access to amazing, unknown doping products others don't. But if you're going to start moaning about riders doing something that IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES, I'm afraid I'm going to point out how ridiculous that is.

Riders use a vast array of products to enhance performance, some of which are banned and some of which aren't. Complaining about the legal ones is pretty silly. I supposed if someone pops a couple of paracetamol and ibuprofen you'll jump about and say how that looks really bad as well?

in the short time i've been on here i've picked up a vibe. sky bad, bad bad bad, naughty bad sky, evil, no reason, i'm crazy, crazy paranoid, sky bad.

or something like that.

p.s. i'm british but not really xenophobic or particularly tubthumping, nor a particular fan of any team per se. but the sky haters on here are what the kids would call cray cray.

You have not read enough of the sky related threads and have no knowledge of the history of the sport and its doping. Otherwise you are trolling.

Sky lied. Sky do things with their riders that they cant or wont explain. Do some research.

I'm not trolling, and I've been following cycling for 30 of my 39 years, as a police officer I bow down to nobody with my levels of cynicism.
but this thread reminds me of the scene from the simpsons where lionel hutz is in court -

Judge Mr. Hutz we've been in here for four hours. Do you have any evidence at all?
Hutz: Well, Your Honor. We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are, kinds of evidence.

as i'm not a 13 year old girl I don't have favorites, I don't have a team (following a particular team in cycling is an exercise in futility since they tend to last about 13 seconds), I just love cycling. what I hate is people spouting rubbish as facts.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I'm not trolling, and I've been following cycling for 30 of my 39 years, as a police officer I bow down to nobody with my levels of cynicism.
but this thread reminds me of the scene from the simpsons where lionel hutz is in court -

Judge Mr. Hutz we've been in here for four hours. Do you have any evidence at all?
Hutz: Well, Your Honor. We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are, kinds of evidence.

as i'm not a 13 year old girl I don't have favorites, I don't have a team (following a particular team in cycling is an exercise in futility since they tend to last about 13 seconds), I just love cycling. what I hate is people spouting rubbish as facts.

lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v0qlliFq8U
is that you at min. 29:50-30:10? or the lady afterwards?

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re:

"None of our riders should ride whilst using Tramadol –that's the policy of this team. Team Sky do not give it to riders whilst racing or training, either as a pre-emptive measure or to manage existing pain.

"We believe that its side-effects, such as dizziness and drowsiness, could cause issues for the safety of all riders. We also feel that if a rider has the level of severe pain for its appropriate use, they should not be riding.

"Tramadol is not prohibited by Wada, but this has been our firm position for the last two seasons and all medical staff and riders are aware of this. Our view is that it should be on the Wada list and any appropriate clinical use could be managed through the regulated TUE."

Would be nice is a journalist could ask them for a similar clear statement on OOC cortisone.

 

[MartinGT]

Anyone read the Roche interview with Kimmage? Interesting stuff and he was seriously hinting at Sky but obv avoiding saying it.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-s ... 85204.html

 

[Catwhoorg]

Read it last night:

Couple of snippets

PK: Are you clean?
NR: Yes.
PK: What does that mean?
NR: It means that I'm a rider who has never taken anything that is illegitimate or can be sanctioned in the sport.
PK: You have not used products that are on the WADA list?
NR: Never.
PK: And that's your definition of clean?
NR: Yeah

Very clear the WADA code is the line for him.


and then:

PK: This is a quote from the report: One doctor stated that it was impossible to lose the weight that some riders achieve without assistance, and that the TUE is taken advantage of to enable this practice. He stated that riders use corticoids to "lean out", ie to lose weight quickly, and keep it off, without losing power. By way of example he explained that to lose 4kg in four weeks by using corticoids would provide a seven per cent power/weight improvement. He added that when used in large quantities and in conjunction with other substances, they supported performance gains. Another doctor stated that some quite recent big wins on the UCI WorldTour were as a result, in part, of some members of the team all using corticoids to get their weight down to support the individual who won (who also used the same weight-loss technique). It was reported that this had been a planned approach by that group's management.
NR: That's pretty hard.
PK: Is that a surprise to you?
NR: That it was organised? Yes.
PK: You wouldn't have speculated on the identity of the team? Or had reservations it had happened before I quoted that passage to you?
NR: No, I would have speculated that some riders did it, not that it was organised.
PK: The abuse of cortisone seems to be a real concern.
NR: For me, that's the number one fight the UCI have to pick up on.


Very much worth reading for his views on weight loss and Tramadol and discussions on supplements.
Its not a paywall article, give Kimmage the click and read it.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

I have to agree with those defending Sky on the matter of using anything that is not banned. Professional cycling is a horrifically difficult sport physiologically, and using any means not deemed illegal by the governing body causes me little pause. In fact, you'd be a fool to not go to the limit of the rules, because if you don't, someone will.

Maybe that is what Sky have done? That is their claim, and as of yet, there has been no uncovering of any kind of systematic program of doping, nor any significant positives. Now, I fully recognize that the same could be said of USPS for years, and that well may be the case here. Add to that the fact that their performances appear dodgy when compared to known doped performances. What isn't here, yet, is any actual evidence of guilt as it relates to the usage of banned performance products.

If what Sky has done is spend massive amounts of money to go to the precipice of the rules, then at least they aren't paying to exceed them. Is it ethical to do that? Depends on your view, but mine is that anything within the rules is fair game. Time may well tell us whether Sky have exceeded the rules, and my belief is that they likely have. What I can't do is condemn them for anything they did that didn't exceed the rules.

Froome and Wiggins did not go from pack fodder to tdf destroyers overnight with a little tramadol. It's a total distraction. The issue is the clearly illegal doping they are doing not some meaningless 0.1% gains from minor drugs

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

If you can't see why a rider using Tramadol only to enhance performance while Tramadol abuse is a known issue in the peloton then I'm afraid I can't help you...

No and it seems like you can't help yourself. I know the prevailing knowledge in the clinic is Sky are full of dopers, cheat with the backing of national and international federations and some probably even think they have access to amazing, unknown doping products others don't. But if you're going to start moaning about riders doing something that IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES, I'm afraid I'm going to point out how ridiculous that is.

Riders use a vast array of products to enhance performance, some of which are banned and some of which aren't. Complaining about the legal ones is pretty silly. I supposed if someone pops a couple of paracetamol and ibuprofen you'll jump about and say how that looks really bad as well?

in the short time i've been on here i've picked up a vibe. sky bad, bad bad bad, naughty bad sky, evil, no reason, i'm crazy, crazy paranoid, sky bad.

or something like that.

p.s. i'm british but not really xenophobic or particularly tubthumping, nor a particular fan of any team per se. but the sky haters on here are what the kids would call cray cray.

You have not read enough of the sky related threads and have no knowledge of the history of the sport and its doping. Otherwise you are trolling.

Sky lied. Sky do things with their riders that they cant or wont explain. Do some research.

I'm not trolling, and I've been following cycling for 30 of my 39 years, as a police officer I bow down to nobody with my levels of cynicism.
but this thread reminds me of the scene from the simpsons where lionel hutz is in court -

Judge Mr. Hutz we've been in here for four hours. Do you have any evidence at all?
Hutz: Well, Your Honor. We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are, kinds of evidence.

as i'm not a 13 year old girl I don't have favorites, I don't have a team (following a particular team in cycling is an exercise in futility since they tend to last about 13 seconds), I just love cycling. what I hate is people spouting rubbish as facts.

Well if you have been following cycling officer dibble for 30 years you would know that nearly every team lied ( 1 exception) about doping and that doping is part of the fabric and culture of the sport.

Can you point to facts that made this culture change?

Great quote by a cycling fan on twitter

"Wandering around the team buses at @Milano_Sanremo finish line you understand that new "clean" cycling is made by old (positive) riders."

 

[sniper]

the same who spoke of "new, clean cycling" after Festina, and again after Puerto. It's the third time they say it, but this time they really mean it.

 

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

Well if you have been following cycling officer dibble for 30 years you would know that nearly every team lied ( 1 exception) about doping and that doping is part of the fabric and culture of the sport.

Can you point to facts that made this culture change?

Great quote by a cycling fan on twitter

"Wandering around the team buses at @Milano_Sanremo finish line you understand that new "clean" cycling is made by old (positive) riders."

its just as well you linked my post, or i'd have no idea you were replying to me, as what you have written has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote.

childish name calling as well, keep up the good work.

 

[the sceptic]

Re: Re:

Well if you have been following cycling officer dibble for 30 years you would know that nearly every team lied ( 1 exception) about doping and that doping is part of the fabric and culture of the sport.

Can you point to facts that made this culture change?

Great quote by a cycling fan on twitter

"Wandering around the team buses at @Milano_Sanremo finish line you understand that new "clean" cycling is made by old (positive) riders."

its just as well you linked my post, or i'd have no idea you were replying to me, as what you have written has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote.

childish name calling as well, keep up the good work.

you think sky are clean? yes or no?

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

I have to agree with those defending Sky on the matter of using anything that is not banned. Professional cycling is a horrifically difficult sport physiologically, and using any means not deemed illegal by the governing body causes me little pause. In fact, you'd be a fool to not go to the limit of the rules, because if you don't, someone will.

Maybe that is what Sky have done? That is their claim, and as of yet, there has been no uncovering of any kind of systematic program of doping, nor any significant positives. Now, I fully recognize that the same could be said of USPS for years, and that well may be the case here. Add to that the fact that their performances appear dodgy when compared to known doped performances. What isn't here, yet, is any actual evidence of guilt as it relates to the usage of banned performance products.

If what Sky has done is spend massive amounts of money to go to the precipice of the rules, then at least they aren't paying to exceed them. Is it ethical to do that? Depends on your view, but mine is that anything within the rules is fair game. Time may well tell us whether Sky have exceeded the rules, and my belief is that they likely have. What I can't do is condemn them for anything they did that didn't exceed the rules.

Froome and Wiggins did not go from pack fodder to tdf destroyers overnight with a little tramadol. It's a total distraction. The issue is the clearly illegal doping they are doing not some meaningless 0.1% gains from minor drugs

Do you believe it is possible, to use the reverse of death by 1000 cuts analogy, to increase performance significantly by use of 1000 .1% gains?

With Wiggins especially, I think he is a dodgy piece of ***, and absolutely believe that he's familiar with blood manipulation in particular. As for Froome, his rise was unnatural for certain. What I'm really asking is if the team itself has dedicated to an idea of pushing to the limits of what is allowed, and that any other gains realized by specific riders using means not within the rules is not systemic of what the team itself provides?

 

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

Well if you have been following cycling officer dibble for 30 years you would know that nearly every team lied ( 1 exception) about doping and that doping is part of the fabric and culture of the sport.

Can you point to facts that made this culture change?

Great quote by a cycling fan on twitter

"Wandering around the team buses at @Milano_Sanremo finish line you understand that new "clean" cycling is made by old (positive) riders."

its just as well you linked my post, or i'd have no idea you were replying to me, as what you have written has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote.

childish name calling as well, keep up the good work.

you think sky are clean? yes or no?

I don't know if they are dirty as a team top to bottom, i'm more inclined to think if there are cheats at Sky it is individuals gone rogue rather than systemic abuse.
i'm significantly more dubious about froome than brad.

 

[the sceptic]

Dr. Ferrari really doesn't like the Dawg. I wish he posted in the clinic.

The report ended with the hope of "nocturnal testing" to be introduced with the purpose of catching any potential "micro-dosing" in the case of athletes with "serious and specific suspicion", obviously identified by an impartial, unbiased UCI beforehand.
Promptly, the first one on top of riders "Nice List", Chris Froome, agreed: "We must do everything to tackle doping".
We will see in the future if he will also be so agreeable to the availability of a digital rectal examination when it will (hopefully not, eh... but you never know) be requested from the UCI in the name of the Holy War against Doping...

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re: Re:

you think sky are clean? yes or no?

Define clean...

(See various comments about CIRC for what I am getting at)

 

[the sceptic]

Re: Re:

you think sky are clean? yes or no?

Define clean...

(See various comments about CIRC for what I am getting at)

To me it makes no sense at all that sky would only dope with things that aren't yet on the banned list.

for one, why would they stop there and not use illegal substances too? they have morals?

also, there is no way such gigantic transformations are possible without EPO and blood bags and I'm sure a whole cocktail of other drugs.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

To me it makes no sense at all that sky would only dope with things that aren't yet on the banned list.

for one, why would they stop there and not use illegal substances too? they have morals?

also, there is no way such gigantic transformations are possible without EPO and blood bags and I'm sure a whole cocktail of other drugs.

Right. And, as has been the case since at least Verbruggen's time as President of the UCI, the UCI itself is ignoring positives. Before the CIRC report, this was only my crackpot theory and after the report, it is more or less official.

Again, the idea that the riders are isolated as "cheating" needs to end.

 

[TailWindHome]

Re: Re:

To me it makes no sense at all that sky would only dope with things that aren't yet on the banned list.

for one, why would they stop there and not use illegal substances too? they have morals? .

Does it make sense that people will drink beer and smoke cigarettes but not use heroin or cocaine?

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

Right. And, as has been the case since at least Verbruggen's time as President of the UCI, the UCI itself is ignoring positives. Before the CIRC report, this was only my crackpot theory and after the report, it is more or less official.

Again, the idea that the riders are isolated as "cheating" needs to end.

Just out of curiosity.. Do you think UCI sits on clear cut SKY positives?

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

...

I'm not trolling, and I've been following cycling for 30 of my 39 years, as a police officer I bow down to nobody with my levels of cynicism.
but this thread reminds me of the scene from the simpsons where lionel hutz is in court -

Judge Mr. Hutz we've been in here for four hours. Do you have any evidence at all?
Hutz: Well, Your Honor. We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are, kinds of evidence.

as i'm not a 13 year old girl I don't have favorites, I don't have a team (following a particular team in cycling is an exercise in futility since they tend to last about 13 seconds), I just love cycling. what I hate is people spouting rubbish as facts.

Sometimes evidence for what is blindingly obvious does not always synchronize with the observation of the blindingly obvious.

Especially in an activity, like cycling, where there is such a concerted effort to dope and hide the doping.

If you've been following these forums as part of your cycling interest, then you know that we could barely discuss what was obvious about Lance at all. Typically we had to resort to aliases and couched language.

Landis took that one step further by taking full advantage of the one-way street and leveraging forums for his Internet defense campaign.

While it may seem like a lot of wild notions or allegations without evidence, being able to air our suspicions is much better than before.

Being British, hopefully you subscribe to Shakespeare's notion that 'the truth will out'. Until then, we can only ask hard questions when facts don't add up.

In this sport doping is a fact and a unicorn is someone that wins on pan y agua. Sounds cool, but is the stuff that dreams are made of.

Dave.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

To me it makes no sense at all that sky would only dope with things that aren't yet on the banned list.

for one, why would they stop there and not use illegal substances too? they have morals?

also, there is no way such gigantic transformations are possible without EPO and blood bags and I'm sure a whole cocktail of other drugs.

According to CIRC the riders themselves seems to have difficulty in knowing when they've crossed the line..
One rider also told CIRC that there is no room for ethics in cycling...

I do not think it's a moral question per se... It's a question of not testing positive..

Morale is for the soft-hearted and the "extremists".. They don't win much is guess...

I'd also guess most riders considers themselves clean as long as they are not sanctioned...
Morale I think often surfaces post career, when things "sink in"... And at that point there are several points of self-defense-mechanisms to cling to.. But some suffer depression etc. due to a clearer sight of their wrondoings and i think in particular the lying...

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Right. And, as has been the case since at least Verbruggen's time as President of the UCI, the UCI itself is ignoring positives. Before the CIRC report, this was only my crackpot theory and after the report, it is more or less official.

Again, the idea that the riders are isolated as "cheating" needs to end.

Just out of curiosity.. Do you think UCI sits on clear cut SKY positives?

Instead of 'sitting' on positives, it strikes me as plausible that Zorzoli has made sure there are no positives to sit on. Case in point: UCI circumventing the Cologne lab.

On the other hand, it's not unlikey that Zorzoli sits on Froome's pre-2011 vuelta BP data, for instance, which everybody with a brain can guess displays some serious anomalies when put against his post-vuelta data.

And even in the absence of hard positives, there can be no doubt that Zorzoli (I think Cookson too) knows first hand that Sky are doping. His link with Leinders speaks for itself. Just like Zorzoli knew all Fuentes-related teams, and Riis-, Lefevere-, and Bruyneel-run teams were doping and didn't do *** about it.
15 years and counting.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

To me it makes no sense at all that sky would only dope with things that aren't yet on the banned list.

for one, why would they stop there and not use illegal substances too? they have morals? .

Does it make sense that people will drink beer and smoke cigarettes but not use heroin or cocaine?

Of course that makes sense. What exactly would those people gain from switching to cocaine or heroin???

#allovertheplace

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Right. And, as has been the case since at least Verbruggen's time as President of the UCI, the UCI itself is ignoring positives. Before the CIRC report, this was only my crackpot theory and after the report, it is more or less official.

Again, the idea that the riders are isolated as "cheating" needs to end.

Just out of curiosity.. Do you think UCI sits on clear cut SKY positives?

We know they did. McQuaid sat on JTLs till it was obvious Sky were backing Cookson for Pres.

McQuaid still wants to work in sport so didn't pull the plug and i am sure he could have sank many teams!!

 

[TailWindHome]

Re: Re:

To me it makes no sense at all that sky would only dope with things that aren't yet on the banned list.

for one, why would they stop there and not use illegal substances too? they have morals? .

Does it make sense that people will drink beer and smoke cigarettes but not use heroin or cocaine?

Of course that makes sense. What exactly would those people gain from switching to cocaine or heroin???

#allovertheplace

nothing
that's why no one uses illegal recreational drugs

jesus