Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

Page 1465 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Re:

Robert5091 said:
So who told the Mail about the delivery of goodies to Wiggens?

It's all a little like the mysterious package that Kloden received prior to P-N 2000 to me :D

I don't think that anything will come of this (despite the lying about Pooley). If any sort of post ban is made on Wiggins/Sky then it will relate to the TUE's offences.
 
Re: Re:

gregrowlerson said:
Robert5091 said:
So who told the Mail about the delivery of goodies to Wiggens?

It's all a little like the mysterious package that Kloden received prior to P-N 2000 to me :D

I don't think that anything will come of this (despite the lying about Pooley). If any sort of post ban is made on Wiggins/Sky then it will relate to the TUE's offences.[

Nah. The Tues are pretty much water tight given the rules. As is thetramadol abuse. The 'package' might be the kicker tho. At the very least Sky will come out of this with zero credibility. And if that at least means we don't have to hear again from that arrogant *** Brailsford's, it's something!,
 
Re: Sky

After all the latest "disclosure" I ask what the other teams are going to do about it? - IOW SKY is already exposed wide open to source on "other means" behind the PR "clean" facade to obtain results- yet not knowing the depth of the whole "marginal gains program" is about in detail......

As I wrote in other thread- What is making other Teams upset is the "Greed" aspect of SKY on winning lots of important races in such "orthodox way" while pretending they're the "ROLE MODEL" for current Pro-Cycling .....
 
http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/37594988
UK Anti-Doping officials have visited British Cycling headquarters as part of an investigation into allegations of wrongdoing in the sport.

Two members of staff went to the National Cycling Centre in Manchester on Friday, but Ukad denied reports that the venue was raided.

Ukad said the meeting was arranged with British Cycling's "full co-operation".
(So they knew they were coming ...Will we see a $100,000 "donation" to the UCI now :rolleyes: )
 
Re:

IndianCyclist said:
they came up with emma after internal review. didnot even bother to check that hypothesis with emma herself before going public. as a result egg on face and more questions
It sounds more like a scramble. I've mentioned several times back since 2012 that Sky have seemed almost ridiculously unprepared for their narrative being questioned. It can't be because they genuinely didn't think anybody would question it, can it? I mean, they did not have any plan in place for how to deal with people thinking their style of riding was suspicious, and had to scramble to put together the talking points for how it was happening before Wiggins insulted too many people. They made comparisons for two years to USPS' organization, riding style, control and professionalism without apparently any preparation for people taking that comparison and running with it to include the more 'unsavoury' side of that team. They made promises to hold Q&A sessions with the public and to do internal investigation after internal investigation on how various suspicious names had beaten their zero tolerance policy, and some of those people are still there, and the most notorious one for me was the promise of an investigation into how Leinders had ended up at the team in July 2012, with Daniel Benson asking Brailsford about how the investigation was progressing at the Worlds over two months later... with Brailsford literally running away from the question. At least Tiernan-Locke had been self-aware enough to know that people would question his sudden emergence, but Sky seemed too trapped in their little corporate bubble to step back from it a minute and think about how it would look, not to the targeted audience of Britons who followed the sport because of being bitten by the bug courtesy of the track cycling successes, but to those in Britain and elsewhere who were already dedicated followers of the sport before their 'era' and know what previous generations of riders looked like and raced like, know that riders like Mick Rogers and Michael Barry have dubious history, and formulate some kind of explanation for how it works.

Instead, we got Chris Froome shouting on Twitter that "fans have got to get it into their heads that riding like this clean is possible now" (to which a Podium Café editor tweeted back "clean riders have got to get it into their heads that 25 years of cheating colleagues have robbed them of blind faith fans"). We got Peter Kennaugh and a camera crew going screaming in the face of Michael Rasmussen for a comment which, though clearly loaded, did not expressly question the narrative ("track rider Thomas dropping Colombian mountain goat Quintana" or words to that effect). We got Wiggins - the man who had five years earlier announced that fans would understandably question leaders and winners of the race for years to come - calling anybody who questioned him a bunch of unsavoury words. We got Brailsford running away from questions, and then going into hiding for over a week when bad news hit the press. We got bad news being carefully and quietly buried (the release of Geert Leinders being orchestrated just a few hours before the Reasoned Decision hit, Rogers being jettisoned under cover of night).

Sometimes their explanations and excuses have solid grounding, and sometimes they are just PR. But sometimes, they really seem to have an adversarial relationship with fans, journalists and everybody else. This particular example is particularly contemptuous because the team that displays "attention to detail" and "no stone left unturned" as prominent mantras (notwithstanding that these have already been debunked several times of course) conducted an "internal investigation" as to why a member of the British women's team staff conducted a day trip on BC's dime to deliver a package to Sky's team at the Dauphiné, and this "investigation" turned up the explanation that the staff member was there to visit a rider who wasn't even in the same country and could easily be verified because she was wearing the goddamned leader's jersey at a major goddamned race that day. As Pooley raced the Giro del Trentino starting five days later, if Cope had stayed in France for a few days they may have been able to argue that Emma stayed in the French Alps for some training between the Emakumeen Bira and the Giro del Trentino. But he didn't, so they couldn't. How can an "internal investigation" have turned up a justification that can easily be debunked by any fan with access to any results aggregator like CQ Ranking, Cyclingfever or Dewielersite in under 30 seconds, and the results of that investigation become accepted enough to be repeated to journalists before they realise what an obvious fallacy it is? Do they really have that little competence in fact-checking? Or do they really have that much contempt for the fans' intelligence?

I know that British Cycling has had a sometimes tumultuous relationship with Pooley over the years, but surely somebody at the organization would have had some idea of her race calendar to know that they couldn't pull that one, unless literally the only point of investigation was "who's a women's racer we have who would have a reason to be in the Alps? Who can climb?" and just picking Pooley ahead of Sharon Laws because she's more well-known (for the record, Laws was also at the Emakumeen Bira, as was Armitstead. Nicole Cooke was in the preceding one-day race but didn't finish the Emakumeen Bira). Given how much of an afterthought Nicole and Emma were at BC for several years it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't, but you know, they could always have checked online. Like Lawton did, and like any of us could have done. And, you know, if the parcel was nothing suspicious, why the need for excuses or secrecy? Why the need to formulate an excuse that anybody with access to youtube can prove false? It beggars belief.

While Sky's/BC's "attention to detail" mantra and due diligence has been shown to be farcically porous in the past (not able to check the Ras court case docs where Leinders' doping is mentioned, not checking the roadbook enough to know about the uncategorized climb in the País Vasco 2011 run-in, believing Mick Rogers when he said he'd never been involved in doping ever, signing JTL based on two tests by other teams, six months apart, and myriad other examples), this is possibly the most blatant example of showing absolutely no attention to detail whatsoever that we have seen yet. It's almost "every stone left unturned". Just farcical, it's not even funny, just sad. Sad to see these formerly proud faces that rubbed their "in the name of clean cycling" PR in the faces of every doubter are reduced to such desperate and obvious lies. Sad to see just how much contempt they held for the intelligence of the general public. And sad for Emma Pooley that after a career spent mainly being ignored, disowned or placed at the bottom of the priorities list by British Cycling, that now they're prepared to use her as an excuse to hide their suspicious activity behind.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Absolutely stellar post Libertine.

It's almost "every stone left unturned".
brilliant.


Just briefly, could anybody point me to the footage Libertine alludes to of Peter Kennaugh and a camera crew going after Michael Rasmussen?
 
Sep 18, 2010
375
0
0
Re: Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
And sad for Emma Pooley that after a career spent mainly being ignored, disowned or placed at the bottom of the priorities list by British Cycling, that now they're prepared to use her as an excuse to hide their suspicious activity behind.

I'd sum up her involvement as, "She who laughs last."

But you make a point: Imagine if she hadn't had a cast-iron alibi? He reputation would be permanently damaged. And that's just disgusting.

Fortunately, as I said, she gets the last laugh. I truly believe that that lie is the lie that's going to bring everything down.

That might seem strange, but it's the concrete proot that Sky is willing to lie about anything.
 
Re: Re:

Libertine Seguros said:
IndianCyclist said:
they came up with emma after internal review. didnot even bother to check that hypothesis with emma herself before going public. as a result egg on face and more questions
It sounds more like a scramble. I've mentioned several times back since 2012 that Sky have seemed almost ridiculously unprepared for their narrative being questioned. It can't be because they genuinely didn't think anybody would question it, can it? .


Its the same in the movies when a cop has the bad guy but no charge and the bad guy taunts "you can't do *** to me, you are a cop".

The criminal scumbags, only concern is - am i manipulating the system well. Sky didn't care if it looked like they were clean. They only wanted to beat the system and then sell books to those cycling fans with an iq below 50- their target market, who might actually believe it
 
Feb 23, 2011
618
0
0
Re:

sniper said:
Absolutely stellar post Libertine.

It's almost "every stone left unturned".
brilliant.


Just briefly, could anybody point me to the footage Libertine alludes to of Peter Kennaugh and a camera crew going after Michael Rasmussen?

Agreed Libertine post the best summary I have seen in a long time. Maybe the chemistry experiment that is pro cycling will one day end because that's what it is - a chemistry experiment.
 
The most interesting thing in the Daily Mail story is not the fact that a package was delivered from the UK to France but the fact that Dave Brailsford said that it was destined for Emma Pooley. It is completely bizarre as to why he would make this assertion when she was 600 mile away.
 
Re:

ontheroad said:
The most interesting thing in the Daily Mail story is not the fact that a package was delivered from the UK to France but the fact that Dave Brailsford said that it was destined for Emma Pooley. It is completely bizarre as to why he would make this assertion when she was 600 mile away.

Me, I like the fact that he invited Lawton out for a bike ride. At the same time as it makes me hope that cosying up to journalists aint going to keep the bad news away anymore, it also makes me wonder what groupset was on the special tandem he kept just for David Walsh.
 
Re: Re:

Eyeballs Out said:
Robert5091 said:
So who told the Mail about the delivery of goodies to Wiggens?
BC still not plugged that leak. That big overlap with the national federation has worked well for years but it's really come back to bite Sky this year

Yeah, there's been someone at the Manchester Velodrome feeding the Daily Mail's Matt Lawton for ages. That has included confidential medical information so god knows why the leak hasn't been closed down yet.
 
Re: Re:

gregrowlerson said:
Robert5091 said:
So who told the Mail about the delivery of goodies to Wiggens?

It's all a little like the mysterious package that Kloden received prior to P-N 2000 to me :D

I don't think that anything will come of this (despite the lying about Pooley). If any sort of post ban is made on Wiggins/Sky then it will relate to the TUE's offences.

What TUE offences are these? They haven't done anything wrong for goodness sake!

I think the reporting on all of this in the British media has been absolutely ludicrous and totally irresponsible. So much for the clinic's claim that the British media wouldn't go after Sky. By some accounts it looks like Sky are ready to end the sponsorship of the team despite there still being no evidence of any wrong-doing! It's crazy. Can you imagine if every cycling team were held to this much scrutiny? There wouldn't be any teams left!
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
0
Without the Russian hack the british press would still be writing fluff pieces about marginal gains and mastermind brailsford.
Fancybears did us a HUGE favour.
For the british press it's now about saving face.

Some exceptions of course. Lawton, stokes, kimmage, Daly, ed hood, and a couple of others were always going to be on the ball.
 
Re: Re:

While Sky's/BC's "attention to detail" mantra and due diligence has been shown to be farcically porous in the past (not able to check the Ras court case docs where Leinders' doping is mentioned, not checking the roadbook enough to know about the uncategorized climb in the País Vasco 2011 run-in, believing Mick Rogers when he said he'd never been involved in doping ever, signing JTL based on two tests by other teams, six months apart, and myriad other examples), this is possibly the most blatant example of showing absolutely no attention to detail whatsoever that we have seen yet. It's almost "every stone left unturned". Just farcical, it's not even funny, just sad. Sad to see these formerly proud faces that rubbed their "in the name of clean cycling" PR in the faces of every doubter are reduced to such desperate and obvious lies. Sad to see just how much contempt they held for the intelligence of the general public. And sad for Emma Pooley that after a career spent mainly being ignored, disowned or placed at the bottom of the priorities list by British Cycling, that now they're prepared to use her as an excuse to hide their suspicious activity behind.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here though? You're stating cases where Sky has clearly displayed incompetence and then conclude in your last few sentences that Brailsford deliberately lied about Pooley. Why can't the Pooley story just be another sign of incompetence? Brailsford was already dealing with the fallout from the TUE's so it's perfectly reasonable to assume an honest mistake was made regarding an event that took place more than 5 years ago. An alternative view is that Brailsford was misled himself by Cope and simply passed that information on to Lawton.
 
Re:

ontheroad said:
The most interesting thing in the Daily Mail story is not the fact that a package was delivered from the UK to France but the fact that Dave Brailsford said that it was destined for Emma Pooley. It is completely bizarre as to why he would make this assertion when she was 600 mile away.

I think the Pooley explanation being so easily disproved strongly suggests that incompetence lay behind it as opposed to conspiracy.
 
Re:

sniper said:
Without the Russian hack the british press would still be writing fluff pieces about marginal gains and mastermind brailsford.
Fancybears did us a HUGE favour.
For the british press it's now about saving face.

Some exceptions of course. Lawton, stokes, kimmage, Daly, ed hood, and a couple of others were always going to be on the ball.

It's been a classic case of overcorrection by the British press. They went harder than pretty much anyone else on the Russian state sponsorship of doping and so to counter claims of hypocrisy they have to go after Sky even though it's unjustified.
 
Re:

sniper said:
Without the Russian hack the british press would still be writing fluff pieces about marginal gains and mastermind brailsford.
Fancybears did us a HUGE favour.
For the british press it's now about saving face.

Some exceptions of course. Lawton, stokes, kimmage, Daly, ed hood, and a couple of others were always going to be on the ball.


Nope that's not true
 
Re: Re:

JRanton said:
While Sky's/BC's "attention to detail" mantra and due diligence has been shown to be farcically porous in the past (not able to check the Ras court case docs where Leinders' doping is mentioned, not checking the roadbook enough to know about the uncategorized climb in the País Vasco 2011 run-in, believing Mick Rogers when he said he'd never been involved in doping ever, signing JTL based on two tests by other teams, six months apart, and myriad other examples), this is possibly the most blatant example of showing absolutely no attention to detail whatsoever that we have seen yet. It's almost "every stone left unturned". Just farcical, it's not even funny, just sad. Sad to see these formerly proud faces that rubbed their "in the name of clean cycling" PR in the faces of every doubter are reduced to such desperate and obvious lies. Sad to see just how much contempt they held for the intelligence of the general public. And sad for Emma Pooley that after a career spent mainly being ignored, disowned or placed at the bottom of the priorities list by British Cycling, that now they're prepared to use her as an excuse to hide their suspicious activity behind.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here though? You're stating cases where Sky has clearly displayed incompetence and then conclude in your last few sentences that Brailsford deliberately lied about Pooley. Why can't the Pooley story just be another sign of incompetence? Brailsford was already dealing with the fallout from the TUE's so it's perfectly reasonable to assume an honest mistake was made regarding an event that took place more than 5 years ago. An alternative view is that Brailsford was misled himself by Cope and simply passed that information on to Lawton.
Your alternative view would express both though: Cope deliberately lying, and Brailsford not doing any fact checking. The fact that it appears in the same article as Brailsford claiming the bus had left before Wiggins was done with his podium commitments despite there being a video of Wiggins at the bus makes it two cases in short order of extremely transparent fallacies, which show Brailsford either lying (almost as badly as Jalabert when ITV doorstepped him in 2015) or simply repeating explanations given to him by those below without even the most cursory checks to see if the story stacks up, thus putting his own reputation at risk through carelessness, which is hardly the actions of somebody for whom "attention to detail" is the mantra that reputation has been built upon.

My point was to show that the "Attention to Detail" mantra has been shown to be nonsense before. Even the most sympathetic renderings of Brailsford show that, because the most sympathetic renderings (i.e. that he isn't lying or involved in suspicious activity) end up crediting him with very little intelligence, which to me seems unlikely given the position he has got to and the success that he's had in it. He hasn't completely bumbled his way to where he is now.

Now, *I* didn't know about Leinders' history or the Rasmussen court docs before he was at Team Sky. But then, I'm not the one who claims to run a 100% clean sports operation whose reputation may be at risk if it came out that I hired a doping doctor (and I'm not the one on record saying that cheaters don't reform, and if you cheat on Monday you won't cheat on Tuesday or however that was worded). *I* didn't remember the exact dates of the 2011 Emakumeen Bira. But then I'm not the one trying to claim reasons that justify why a member of staff for a team that isn't directly related was delivering a suspicious parcel supposedly to my star rider.

And once more, even if we accept that Brailsford has repeated what he's been told in good faith, he's just been given some awful excuses: even if the excuses weren't more riddled with holes than a colander, if the package wasn't suspect, why does it need to be secretive and why do there need to be excuses?
 
May 26, 2010
28,143
5
0
Re: Re:

JRanton said:
sniper said:
Without the Russian hack the british press would still be writing fluff pieces about marginal gains and mastermind brailsford.
Fancybears did us a HUGE favour.
For the british press it's now about saving face.

Some exceptions of course. Lawton, stokes, kimmage, Daly, ed hood, and a couple of others were always going to be on the ball.

It's been a classic case of overcorrection by the British press. They went harder than pretty much anyone else on the Russian state sponsorship of doping and so to counter claims of hypocrisy they have to go after Sky even though it's unjustified.


Sky have won 4 of the last 5 TdFs in a sport with a big doping culture. Sky have claimed they did that in a manner that was clean (their word).

Sky have hired doping doctors, dopers, former dopers.

Sky have beaten known dopers, known doping teams with known doping doctors working for those teams.

Where do you think the unjustification is? Are you still arguing that Sky are clean? Really? Seriously? You still believe that? After all the lies?

By the way Sky are not just lying to the press, they are lying to the sport and the fans!
 
Re:

Pantani_lives said:
Is there any chance that Team Sky will be banned from next year's Tour, or will we just get another routine cover-up?
Only based on what we currently know, it would be preposterous to bar them. What we have so far is comparatively unsubstantiated from the perspective necessary for actually blocking them from competition. If they couldn't keep Fuji-Servetto from most PT races in 2009 they won't be able to keep Sky. After all, while the need for such substances appears to have been exaggerated and the grounds on which the TUEs were granted are debatable, the fact remains that those TUEs were applied for and granted, so there's nothing that would justify a ban there in and of itself. And for all we know Cope could have been delivering a box of chocolates for Wiggins (although obviously the secrecy and the misdirection around it obviously points to something completely different), blocking them from competition on that basis would surely be easily overturned on appeal to CAS.