Per weight loss, at least we know a bit more on how it happens. I'll leave this classic right over here (granted it could go in the Wiggo, JV, Sky, Brits Don't Dope, etc. threads. I'll leave it for the mods to decide):
-
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One of Sky's Pravda PR agents has posted this on the tweet machine.
"....extent of doping"
So it is being admitted now they doped.
Game over!
Syed is a dumbf**k.
"....extent of doping"
So it is being admitted now they doped.
Game over!
Syed is a dumbf**k.
Re:
lipotropin
when Cecchini is telling bald eagle Bjarne Riis to lose the weight, he prolly could have lost another 10lbs with the lipotropin and the lower intestine liquid nutrition enema diet. Ask Race Radio about that diet.
the leanness of Zakarin, Froome, Wigans, Nibali, Hesjedal, #NOTnormal, its the lipotropin idjits...
Some others are on it, but it really is only effective for riders who need their power-weight going uphill.
You can see how Simon Gerrans did a game-theory triangulation, he never lost a kilogram, and he became the fastest rider in the peloton in those decimated group sprints from 45kmph starting speed. He became as fast as riders like Michael Matthews who lost 3lbs, and Philippe Gilbert, both who would have pumped him previously, and Valverde. Gerro looks like he has leaned up this offseason, it could be an error if he can no longer win those sprints that he was able to in the last four years when everyone has lost the weight.
edit: the first <about> replaced <have>
GraftPunk said:Per weight loss, at least we know a bit more on how it happens. I'll leave this classic right over here (granted it could go in the Wiggo, JV, Sky, Brits Don't Dope, etc. threads. I'll leave it for the mods to decide):
lipotropin
when Cecchini is telling bald eagle Bjarne Riis to lose the weight, he prolly could have lost another 10lbs with the lipotropin and the lower intestine liquid nutrition enema diet. Ask Race Radio about that diet.
the leanness of Zakarin, Froome, Wigans, Nibali, Hesjedal, #NOTnormal, its the lipotropin idjits...
Some others are on it, but it really is only effective for riders who need their power-weight going uphill.
You can see how Simon Gerrans did a game-theory triangulation, he never lost a kilogram, and he became the fastest rider in the peloton in those decimated group sprints from 45kmph starting speed. He became as fast as riders like Michael Matthews who lost 3lbs, and Philippe Gilbert, both who would have pumped him previously, and Valverde. Gerro looks like he has leaned up this offseason, it could be an error if he can no longer win those sprints that he was able to in the last four years when everyone has lost the weight.
edit: the first <about> replaced <have>
thehog
BANNED
Re: Re:
It's not losing the weight but "losing the fat".
blackcat said:GraftPunk said:Per weight loss, at least we know a bit more on how it happens. I'll leave this classic right over here (granted it could go in the Wiggo, JV, Sky, Brits Don't Dope, etc. threads. I'll leave it for the mods to decide):
lipotropin
when Cecchini is telling bald eagle Bjarne Riis to lose the weight, he prolly could have lost another 10lbs with the lipotropin and the lower intestine liquid nutrition enema diet. Ask Race Radio have that diet.
the leannes or Zakarin, Froome, Wigans, Nibali, Hesjedal, #NOTnormal, its the lipotropin idjits...
Some others are on it, but it really is only effective for riders who need their power-weight going uphill.
You can see how Simon Gerrans did a game-theory triangulation, he never lost a kilogram, and he became the fastest rider in the peloton in those decimated group sprints from 45kmph starting speed. He became as fast as riders like Michael Matthews who lost 3lbs, and Philippe Gilbert, both who would have pumped him previously, and Valverde. Gerro looks like he has leaned up this offseason, it could be an error if he can no longer win those sprints that he was able to in the last four years when everyone has lost the weight.
It's not losing the weight but "losing the fat".
Re: Re:
the lower intestine liquid nutrition enema diet
What the hell? Am I doing it wrong eating food? Do I need to stick a dirty big tube up my arsenal to go full-marginals?
blackcat said:GraftPunk said:Per weight loss, at least we know a bit more on how it happens. I'll leave this classic right over here (granted it could go in the Wiggo, JV, Sky, Brits Don't Dope, etc. threads. I'll leave it for the mods to decide):
lipotropin
when Cecchini is telling bald eagle Bjarne Riis to lose the weight, he prolly could have lost another 10lbs with the lipotropin and the lower intestine liquid nutrition enema diet. Ask Race Radio have that diet.
the leannes or Zakarin, Froome, Wigans, Nibali, Hesjedal, #NOTnormal, its the lipotropin idjits...
Some others are on it, but it really is only effective for riders who need their power-weight going uphill.
You can see how Simon Gerrans did a game-theory triangulation, he never lost a kilogram, and he became the fastest rider in the peloton in those decimated group sprints from 45kmph starting speed. He became as fast as riders like Michael Matthews who lost 3lbs, and Philippe Gilbert, both who would have pumped him previously, and Valverde. Gerro looks like he has leaned up this offseason, it could be an error if he can no longer win those sprints that he was able to in the last four years when everyone has lost the weight.
the lower intestine liquid nutrition enema diet
What the hell? Am I doing it wrong eating food? Do I need to stick a dirty big tube up my arsenal to go full-marginals?
Re:
"Get that water away from me. It's fattening"
GraftPunk said:Per weight loss, at least we know a bit more on how it happens. I'll leave this classic right over here (granted it could go in the Wiggo, JV, Sky, Brits Don't Dope, etc. threads. I'll leave it for the mods to decide):
"Get that water away from me. It's fattening"
Re: Re:
Yep, and I'm sure the quote never mentioned medalists, just good riders.
Coppi, Altig, Moser, Koblet, Anquetil, Brankart,Bracke are all IP medalists that have gone on to win/compete in GTs.
These would chime well with the quote considering the time frame. Lapize won bronze in the 100km track race in 1908.
TP I'm not sure about, either UCI or OG, Tom Simpson certainly rode it if he counts.[/quote]
Some big names there, thanks. Didn't know Coppi rode the IP.
Comparing eras is interesting. I suppose the two things that stand out in this era are 1. The degree of specialisation and 2. The precision of weight/power ratios that dictates who can even attempt being a GT contender.
Also interesting to see that another contemporary IP/TP rider - Rohan Dennis - is attempting a 4 year plan to transform into a GT rider.
For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?[/quote]
Specialisation existed back in the day too, while those names stand out as they had particularly brilliant road careers there were many riders who excelled at only track riding like Guido Messina, Leandro Faggin, Roger Rivière, Sid Patterson, Hugh Porter etc. I think it's more the professionalisation of the sports that has forced the disparity. If you look at multiple GT winners from Hinault backwards you will see many of them with multiple victories in the Grand Prix des Nations, the precursor to Chrono Des Nations. All the guys who have won 5 TdFs were monster TT riders, and many in the list of multiple GT winners are former Hour Record holders (Merckx, Petit-Breton, Coppi, Moser, Anquetil, Indurain, Rominger). Now GT routes have become less TT heavy and with the developments in aerodynamics and training track riders are able to carry more muscle without being at a significant weight disadvantage. What used to be almost one sport practiced in two areas has become two very different sports, possibly even more with the different specialisations required between events on the track are taken into account, and this means it does require a change in body shape to compete in one or the other.
I know the narrative that track riders can't be top GT contenders fits well with the narrative that Wiggins is a doper, but track riders, especially those that can compete for the hour record, clearly fit in with multiple GT winners. That does not mean they, and in this discussion Wiggins, are clean. Doping is part of cycling. It just doesn't mean that a track rider becoming a GT rider must be doing anything on top of what the top GT riders are doing.
As to whether they could do it clean, that's pretty much impossible to say. It really depends what your assessment of the current GT crop is in terms of cleanliness. If you start from a position that all the top GT contenders are doping then it's pretty hard to see anyone competing without doping as well. You'd need to make an assessment of what level of doping is possible. If you start from the view that some GT contenders are clean then yes, I'd think it would be possible for someone to make the change clean, again I'm not saying Wiggins did, but only if you start from that position. Doping is a part of cycling, it's a part of professional sport. I've always said that a rider who can perform like Wiggins, NOT necessarily Wiggins himself, did on the track could win the TdF on a route like he did in a way like he did clean, but that is on the proviso that there is a level playing field and no-one else is doping which I don't believe is the case. You then need to factor in the level of doping and decide if someone with great natural ability would be able to overcome that disadvantage. Honestly, I'm becoming less and less inclined to believe that this is possible and I don't believe that Wiggins did this.
Added onto this you need to also consider the team. You could take a brilliantly talented, clean rider and surround them with riders doped to the gills and probably win the TdF, but that in my eyes is also not a clean winner.
fmk_RoI said:
Yep, and I'm sure the quote never mentioned medalists, just good riders.
The Hegelian said:
Coppi, Altig, Moser, Koblet, Anquetil, Brankart,Bracke are all IP medalists that have gone on to win/compete in GTs.
These would chime well with the quote considering the time frame. Lapize won bronze in the 100km track race in 1908.
TP I'm not sure about, either UCI or OG, Tom Simpson certainly rode it if he counts.[/quote]
Some big names there, thanks. Didn't know Coppi rode the IP.
Comparing eras is interesting. I suppose the two things that stand out in this era are 1. The degree of specialisation and 2. The precision of weight/power ratios that dictates who can even attempt being a GT contender.
Also interesting to see that another contemporary IP/TP rider - Rohan Dennis - is attempting a 4 year plan to transform into a GT rider.
For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?[/quote]
Specialisation existed back in the day too, while those names stand out as they had particularly brilliant road careers there were many riders who excelled at only track riding like Guido Messina, Leandro Faggin, Roger Rivière, Sid Patterson, Hugh Porter etc. I think it's more the professionalisation of the sports that has forced the disparity. If you look at multiple GT winners from Hinault backwards you will see many of them with multiple victories in the Grand Prix des Nations, the precursor to Chrono Des Nations. All the guys who have won 5 TdFs were monster TT riders, and many in the list of multiple GT winners are former Hour Record holders (Merckx, Petit-Breton, Coppi, Moser, Anquetil, Indurain, Rominger). Now GT routes have become less TT heavy and with the developments in aerodynamics and training track riders are able to carry more muscle without being at a significant weight disadvantage. What used to be almost one sport practiced in two areas has become two very different sports, possibly even more with the different specialisations required between events on the track are taken into account, and this means it does require a change in body shape to compete in one or the other.
I know the narrative that track riders can't be top GT contenders fits well with the narrative that Wiggins is a doper, but track riders, especially those that can compete for the hour record, clearly fit in with multiple GT winners. That does not mean they, and in this discussion Wiggins, are clean. Doping is part of cycling. It just doesn't mean that a track rider becoming a GT rider must be doing anything on top of what the top GT riders are doing.
As to whether they could do it clean, that's pretty much impossible to say. It really depends what your assessment of the current GT crop is in terms of cleanliness. If you start from a position that all the top GT contenders are doping then it's pretty hard to see anyone competing without doping as well. You'd need to make an assessment of what level of doping is possible. If you start from the view that some GT contenders are clean then yes, I'd think it would be possible for someone to make the change clean, again I'm not saying Wiggins did, but only if you start from that position. Doping is a part of cycling, it's a part of professional sport. I've always said that a rider who can perform like Wiggins, NOT necessarily Wiggins himself, did on the track could win the TdF on a route like he did in a way like he did clean, but that is on the proviso that there is a level playing field and no-one else is doping which I don't believe is the case. You then need to factor in the level of doping and decide if someone with great natural ability would be able to overcome that disadvantage. Honestly, I'm becoming less and less inclined to believe that this is possible and I don't believe that Wiggins did this.
Added onto this you need to also consider the team. You could take a brilliantly talented, clean rider and surround them with riders doped to the gills and probably win the TdF, but that in my eyes is also not a clean winner.
Re: Re:
Some big names there, thanks. Didn't know Coppi rode the IP.
Comparing eras is interesting. I suppose the two things that stand out in this era are 1. The degree of specialisation and 2. The precision of weight/power ratios that dictates who can even attempt being a GT contender.
Also interesting to see that another contemporary IP/TP rider - Rohan Dennis - is attempting a 4 year plan to transform into a GT rider.
For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?[/quote]
Specialisation existed back in the day too, while those names stand out as they had particularly brilliant road careers there were many riders who excelled at only track riding like Guido Messina, Leandro Faggin, Roger Rivière, Sid Patterson, Hugh Porter etc. I think it's more the professionalisation of the sports that has forced the disparity. If you look at multiple GT winners from Hinault backwards you will see many of them with multiple victories in the Grand Prix des Nations, the precursor to Chrono Des Nations. All the guys who have won 5 TdFs were monster TT riders, and many in the list of multiple GT winners are former Hour Record holders (Merckx, Petit-Breton, Coppi, Moser, Anquetil, Indurain, Rominger). Now GT routes have become less TT heavy and with the developments in aerodynamics and training track riders are able to carry more muscle without being at a significant weight disadvantage. What used to be almost one sport practiced in two areas has become two very different sports, possibly even more with the different specialisations required between events on the track are taken into account, and this means it does require a change in body shape to compete in one or the other.
I know the narrative that track riders can't be top GT contenders fits well with the narrative that Wiggins is a doper, but track riders, especially those that can compete for the hour record, clearly fit in with multiple GT winners. That does not mean they, and in this discussion Wiggins, are clean. Doping is part of cycling. It just doesn't mean that a track rider becoming a GT rider must be doing anything on top of what the top GT riders are doing.
As to whether they could do it clean, that's pretty much impossible to say. It really depends what your assessment of the current GT crop is in terms of cleanliness. If you start from a position that all the top GT contenders are doping then it's pretty hard to see anyone competing without doping as well. You'd need to make an assessment of what level of doping is possible. If you start from the view that some GT contenders are clean then yes, I'd think it would be possible for someone to make the change clean, again I'm not saying Wiggins did, but only if you start from that position. Doping is a part of cycling, it's a part of professional sport. I've always said that a rider who can perform like Wiggins, NOT necessarily Wiggins himself, did on the track could win the TdF on a route like he did in a way like he did clean, but that is on the proviso that there is a level playing field and no-one else is doping which I don't believe is the case. You then need to factor in the level of doping and decide if someone with great natural ability would be able to overcome that disadvantage. Honestly, I'm becoming less and less inclined to believe that this is possible and I don't believe that Wiggins did this.
Added onto this you need to also consider the team. You could take a brilliantly talented, clean rider and surround them with riders doped to the gills and probably win the TdF, but that in my eyes is also not a clean winner.[/quote]
a couple of points (weight notwithstanding)...wiggins rode on the road throughout...you don't hide the road talent that wiggins showed via his 2012 season results in the peloton...perhaps on the track you would never know or if you were a cross rider only...but not in the peloton for the years he was...there was a 'transformation'...and at the moment all we may have is the froome-like.....he lost the fat
(btw same with froome...you don't hide 'near the boundary of human limits physiology' mid-field in the tour of poland)
on weight...do we know fat boy lemond and ullrich's in-season weight fluctuations figures? They were both known to turn up carrying a few pounds....I'm sure lemond won trump (or its successor) carrying a few in maybe 90 or 91? Might be interesting to test the just lost the fat angle via looking at a known engine performing with a few extra pounds?
King Boonen said:
Some big names there, thanks. Didn't know Coppi rode the IP.
Comparing eras is interesting. I suppose the two things that stand out in this era are 1. The degree of specialisation and 2. The precision of weight/power ratios that dictates who can even attempt being a GT contender.
Also interesting to see that another contemporary IP/TP rider - Rohan Dennis - is attempting a 4 year plan to transform into a GT rider.
For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?[/quote]
Specialisation existed back in the day too, while those names stand out as they had particularly brilliant road careers there were many riders who excelled at only track riding like Guido Messina, Leandro Faggin, Roger Rivière, Sid Patterson, Hugh Porter etc. I think it's more the professionalisation of the sports that has forced the disparity. If you look at multiple GT winners from Hinault backwards you will see many of them with multiple victories in the Grand Prix des Nations, the precursor to Chrono Des Nations. All the guys who have won 5 TdFs were monster TT riders, and many in the list of multiple GT winners are former Hour Record holders (Merckx, Petit-Breton, Coppi, Moser, Anquetil, Indurain, Rominger). Now GT routes have become less TT heavy and with the developments in aerodynamics and training track riders are able to carry more muscle without being at a significant weight disadvantage. What used to be almost one sport practiced in two areas has become two very different sports, possibly even more with the different specialisations required between events on the track are taken into account, and this means it does require a change in body shape to compete in one or the other.
I know the narrative that track riders can't be top GT contenders fits well with the narrative that Wiggins is a doper, but track riders, especially those that can compete for the hour record, clearly fit in with multiple GT winners. That does not mean they, and in this discussion Wiggins, are clean. Doping is part of cycling. It just doesn't mean that a track rider becoming a GT rider must be doing anything on top of what the top GT riders are doing.
As to whether they could do it clean, that's pretty much impossible to say. It really depends what your assessment of the current GT crop is in terms of cleanliness. If you start from a position that all the top GT contenders are doping then it's pretty hard to see anyone competing without doping as well. You'd need to make an assessment of what level of doping is possible. If you start from the view that some GT contenders are clean then yes, I'd think it would be possible for someone to make the change clean, again I'm not saying Wiggins did, but only if you start from that position. Doping is a part of cycling, it's a part of professional sport. I've always said that a rider who can perform like Wiggins, NOT necessarily Wiggins himself, did on the track could win the TdF on a route like he did in a way like he did clean, but that is on the proviso that there is a level playing field and no-one else is doping which I don't believe is the case. You then need to factor in the level of doping and decide if someone with great natural ability would be able to overcome that disadvantage. Honestly, I'm becoming less and less inclined to believe that this is possible and I don't believe that Wiggins did this.
Added onto this you need to also consider the team. You could take a brilliantly talented, clean rider and surround them with riders doped to the gills and probably win the TdF, but that in my eyes is also not a clean winner.[/quote]
a couple of points (weight notwithstanding)...wiggins rode on the road throughout...you don't hide the road talent that wiggins showed via his 2012 season results in the peloton...perhaps on the track you would never know or if you were a cross rider only...but not in the peloton for the years he was...there was a 'transformation'...and at the moment all we may have is the froome-like.....he lost the fat
(btw same with froome...you don't hide 'near the boundary of human limits physiology' mid-field in the tour of poland)
on weight...do we know fat boy lemond and ullrich's in-season weight fluctuations figures? They were both known to turn up carrying a few pounds....I'm sure lemond won trump (or its successor) carrying a few in maybe 90 or 91? Might be interesting to test the just lost the fat angle via looking at a known engine performing with a few extra pounds?
Re: Re:
Some big names there, thanks. Didn't know Coppi rode the IP.
Comparing eras is interesting. I suppose the two things that stand out in this era are 1. The degree of specialisation and 2. The precision of weight/power ratios that dictates who can even attempt being a GT contender.
Also interesting to see that another contemporary IP/TP rider - Rohan Dennis - is attempting a 4 year plan to transform into a GT rider.
For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?[/quote]
Specialisation existed back in the day too, while those names stand out as they had particularly brilliant road careers there were many riders who excelled at only track riding like Guido Messina, Leandro Faggin, Roger Rivière, Sid Patterson, Hugh Porter etc. I think it's more the professionalisation of the sports that has forced the disparity. If you look at multiple GT winners from Hinault backwards you will see many of them with multiple victories in the Grand Prix des Nations, the precursor to Chrono Des Nations. All the guys who have won 5 TdFs were monster TT riders, and many in the list of multiple GT winners are former Hour Record holders (Merckx, Petit-Breton, Coppi, Moser, Anquetil, Indurain, Rominger). Now GT routes have become less TT heavy and with the developments in aerodynamics and training track riders are able to carry more muscle without being at a significant weight disadvantage. What used to be almost one sport practiced in two areas has become two very different sports, possibly even more with the different specialisations required between events on the track are taken into account, and this means it does require a change in body shape to compete in one or the other.
I know the narrative that track riders can't be top GT contenders fits well with the narrative that Wiggins is a doper, but track riders, especially those that can compete for the hour record, clearly fit in with multiple GT winners. That does not mean they, and in this discussion Wiggins, are clean. Doping is part of cycling. It just doesn't mean that a track rider becoming a GT rider must be doing anything on top of what the top GT riders are doing.
As to whether they could do it clean, that's pretty much impossible to say. It really depends what your assessment of the current GT crop is in terms of cleanliness. If you start from a position that all the top GT contenders are doping then it's pretty hard to see anyone competing without doping as well. You'd need to make an assessment of what level of doping is possible. If you start from the view that some GT contenders are clean then yes, I'd think it would be possible for someone to make the change clean, again I'm not saying Wiggins did, but only if you start from that position. Doping is a part of cycling, it's a part of professional sport. I've always said that a rider who can perform like Wiggins, NOT necessarily Wiggins himself, did on the track could win the TdF on a route like he did in a way like he did clean, but that is on the proviso that there is a level playing field and no-one else is doping which I don't believe is the case. You then need to factor in the level of doping and decide if someone with great natural ability would be able to overcome that disadvantage. Honestly, I'm becoming less and less inclined to believe that this is possible and I don't believe that Wiggins did this.
Added onto this you need to also consider the team. You could take a brilliantly talented, clean rider and surround them with riders doped to the gills and probably win the TdF, but that in my eyes is also not a clean winner.[/quote]
V.good post.
Which takes us back to what exactly is 'clean'?
Clean according to the letter of the rules.
Clean according to the spirit of the rules.
Clean according to the man on the street.
Clean according to bread and water.
There are 50 shades of clean IMHO, although I would wager most of the Pro peleton work on what they can get away with which as we know is a hell of a lot.
Clean is such a subjective subject based around an objective set of rules.
King Boonen said:
Some big names there, thanks. Didn't know Coppi rode the IP.
Comparing eras is interesting. I suppose the two things that stand out in this era are 1. The degree of specialisation and 2. The precision of weight/power ratios that dictates who can even attempt being a GT contender.
Also interesting to see that another contemporary IP/TP rider - Rohan Dennis - is attempting a 4 year plan to transform into a GT rider.
For the sake of argument, does anyone think this is plausible/possible clean? Esp on the weight loss/retain power front?[/quote]
Specialisation existed back in the day too, while those names stand out as they had particularly brilliant road careers there were many riders who excelled at only track riding like Guido Messina, Leandro Faggin, Roger Rivière, Sid Patterson, Hugh Porter etc. I think it's more the professionalisation of the sports that has forced the disparity. If you look at multiple GT winners from Hinault backwards you will see many of them with multiple victories in the Grand Prix des Nations, the precursor to Chrono Des Nations. All the guys who have won 5 TdFs were monster TT riders, and many in the list of multiple GT winners are former Hour Record holders (Merckx, Petit-Breton, Coppi, Moser, Anquetil, Indurain, Rominger). Now GT routes have become less TT heavy and with the developments in aerodynamics and training track riders are able to carry more muscle without being at a significant weight disadvantage. What used to be almost one sport practiced in two areas has become two very different sports, possibly even more with the different specialisations required between events on the track are taken into account, and this means it does require a change in body shape to compete in one or the other.
I know the narrative that track riders can't be top GT contenders fits well with the narrative that Wiggins is a doper, but track riders, especially those that can compete for the hour record, clearly fit in with multiple GT winners. That does not mean they, and in this discussion Wiggins, are clean. Doping is part of cycling. It just doesn't mean that a track rider becoming a GT rider must be doing anything on top of what the top GT riders are doing.
As to whether they could do it clean, that's pretty much impossible to say. It really depends what your assessment of the current GT crop is in terms of cleanliness. If you start from a position that all the top GT contenders are doping then it's pretty hard to see anyone competing without doping as well. You'd need to make an assessment of what level of doping is possible. If you start from the view that some GT contenders are clean then yes, I'd think it would be possible for someone to make the change clean, again I'm not saying Wiggins did, but only if you start from that position. Doping is a part of cycling, it's a part of professional sport. I've always said that a rider who can perform like Wiggins, NOT necessarily Wiggins himself, did on the track could win the TdF on a route like he did in a way like he did clean, but that is on the proviso that there is a level playing field and no-one else is doping which I don't believe is the case. You then need to factor in the level of doping and decide if someone with great natural ability would be able to overcome that disadvantage. Honestly, I'm becoming less and less inclined to believe that this is possible and I don't believe that Wiggins did this.
Added onto this you need to also consider the team. You could take a brilliantly talented, clean rider and surround them with riders doped to the gills and probably win the TdF, but that in my eyes is also not a clean winner.[/quote]
V.good post.
Which takes us back to what exactly is 'clean'?
Clean according to the letter of the rules.
Clean according to the spirit of the rules.
Clean according to the man on the street.
Clean according to bread and water.
There are 50 shades of clean IMHO, although I would wager most of the Pro peleton work on what they can get away with which as we know is a hell of a lot.
Clean is such a subjective subject based around an objective set of rules.
Re: Re:
If you jumped a red light in order to get to the velodrome in time for the early session, and therefore you get the advantage of an extra half an hour of training over the more punctilious of your mates, are you really clean?
If you, while suffering from an illness, took a drug that was prescribed to treat it, but in an excessive dose, not in order to treat said illness better or quicker but in order to potentially derive a performance enhancing advantage, are you really clean?
If you shot up every known PED and scoured the earth for more, and threatened, assaulted and bribed your way out of the repercussions, while leveraging your victories into a charitable hero persona so as to further your abuse of your critics and thus enable you to carry on unabated, are you really any dirtier than the other two?
The answers seem to trend evermore towards evidently yes or obviously no. As with everything in the nascent seven ten split epoch of the information age.
Well put. That's the biggie:B_Ugli said:
If you jumped a red light in order to get to the velodrome in time for the early session, and therefore you get the advantage of an extra half an hour of training over the more punctilious of your mates, are you really clean?
If you, while suffering from an illness, took a drug that was prescribed to treat it, but in an excessive dose, not in order to treat said illness better or quicker but in order to potentially derive a performance enhancing advantage, are you really clean?
If you shot up every known PED and scoured the earth for more, and threatened, assaulted and bribed your way out of the repercussions, while leveraging your victories into a charitable hero persona so as to further your abuse of your critics and thus enable you to carry on unabated, are you really any dirtier than the other two?
The answers seem to trend evermore towards evidently yes or obviously no. As with everything in the nascent seven ten split epoch of the information age.
Singer01
BANNED
Edmonsdson, semi confession. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/39293763, he did it without team knowledge, but they allegedly tried to keep it quiet.
Re:
Im just watching this on bbc news now, its said the team found a needle and vitamins in his room, but didn't report it due to being "worried about his mental state" and he admitted it to the team but it was covered up.
Another profound example of transparency.
Singer01 said:
Im just watching this on bbc news now, its said the team found a needle and vitamins in his room, but didn't report it due to being "worried about his mental state" and he admitted it to the team but it was covered up.
Another profound example of transparency.
Re: Re:
No he told them he hadn't used them according to the doctor. They are idiots though, they should have reported it.
Remmie123 said:
No he told them he hadn't used them according to the doctor. They are idiots though, they should have reported it.
Re: Re:
I can't decide if this a distraction/deflection on their part, or this is just the slippery slope of admissions and info to come. poor kid though, he sounds like he wasn't in the best place mentally no matter what. Hope he gets the support and help he needs.
bigcog said:
I can't decide if this a distraction/deflection on their part, or this is just the slippery slope of admissions and info to come. poor kid though, he sounds like he wasn't in the best place mentally no matter what. Hope he gets the support and help he needs.
Re: Re:
He admits himself he was depressed. Some things are best left unreported. The press would have gone to town on it with no regard for the rider's wellbeing.
Remmie123 said:
He admits himself he was depressed. Some things are best left unreported. The press would have gone to town on it with no regard for the rider's wellbeing.
Re: Re:
I reckon he thought it was going to come out soon if there is a leak from someone in the team or was in the team. If Sky are telling the truth then I bet they well p*ssed off they didn't report it given what he has done now.
GraftPunk said:
I reckon he thought it was going to come out soon if there is a leak from someone in the team or was in the team. If Sky are telling the truth then I bet they well p*ssed off they didn't report it given what he has done now.
Re: Re:
Agreed.
Strange one this innit. If the story is as simple as it appears on face value, then the team did the right thing by him. In which case, why the hell is he telling this now, in the midst of the ongoing fiasco? Seems a bit of a backstabbing move? Perhaps more going on here than it appears.
JRanton said:
Agreed.
Strange one this innit. If the story is as simple as it appears on face value, then the team did the right thing by him. In which case, why the hell is he telling this now, in the midst of the ongoing fiasco? Seems a bit of a backstabbing move? Perhaps more going on here than it appears.
For those in the UK:
BBC Radio 5 Live now, 'Bespoked' programme exploring this Edmondson story.
BBC Radio 5 Live now, 'Bespoked' programme exploring this Edmondson story.
Re: Re:
Steve Peters had a duty of care to him as a rider and as it sounds a patient that for him takes priority and it always should over anti doping rules.
Remmie123 said:
Steve Peters had a duty of care to him as a rider and as it sounds a patient that for him takes priority and it always should over anti doping rules.
Re: Re:
Recently they would, but not in 2013 and 2014 when the press were right behind Sky. Who were the journalists writing stories that were querying what Sky were doing? Kimmage and .............?
JRanton said:
Recently they would, but not in 2013 and 2014 when the press were right behind Sky. Who were the journalists writing stories that were querying what Sky were doing? Kimmage and .............?
Stupid UCI no needles policy, putting riders health at risk. He was using vitamins for Trump's sake. Should've had a doc administering. Help him do his job.
He was constantly exhausted and the vitamins helped...B12, folic acid etc. Reminds me of Alain Piper's account of turning pro...endless overwhelming exhaustion, impossible to carry on without medical help.
He was constantly exhausted and the vitamins helped...B12, folic acid etc. Reminds me of Alain Piper's account of turning pro...endless overwhelming exhaustion, impossible to carry on without medical help.
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