Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Tyler'sTwin]

And yet, despite dieting to the point of anorexia, he's still noticeably larger than some competitors (it's not quite like the finishing line in Le-Grand-Bornand in 2009 where Armstrong looked like he could swallow Nibali in one mouthful). But what's incredible is that despite that, he has suffered no reduction in the power he's able to put out and his health has been fine. His ITT has even improved since the days when he was a pure ITT guy. Dieting your way down to be more competitive in the mountains makes sense and I can buy it as a cause for his improved mountain performance (although having known dodgy guys like Rogers and highly suspicious guys like Froome surrounding him doesn't help), but you would expect it to have some kind of effect on his TTing, and improving it is not the effect you would expect. Especially given in those days he would rest up and come in with the autobus several days in order to be competitive in the ITT, and do well but often not in 1st or 2nd, which has been almost uniformly his result this year when he's been having to work hard each day.

People holding on to the 'Wiggins struggles on long climbs and steep climbs' seem to be clutching at straws though; while we haven't seen him on any long climbs this year, thanks mainly to awful course design in this Dauphiné, he didn't seem to suffer on the longer climbs in the Vuelta last year; as for steep climbs, the Tour doesn't have anything like Anglirú and he was 3rd on Montée Laurent Jalabert earlier this year. It seems that absolutely everything has fallen into place for Wiggins this year; he's been able to discover hitherto unknown skills (short hills), resurrect long forgotten ones (bursts of acceleration into sprints), and still have time to improve both his climbing AND his TTing.

It mightn't be so suspicious if it hadn't happened to a whole bunch of his teammates too.

Yeah, I agree. I find Wiggins questionable mainly because of his illogical improvement as a TT'er, the suspicious blood values he published at Garmin and his solid 5 in the leaked suspicion rating.

 

[Gregga]

Yeah, I agree. I find Wiggins questionable mainly because of his illogical improvement as a TT'er, the suspicious blood values he published at Garmin and his solid 5 in the leaked suspicion rating.

Rogers was rated 7 in the "secret" list...

 

[Lanark]

Rogers was rated 7 in the "secret" list...

Nobody was going to suggest that Ferrari and Freiburg client Rogers was clean right?

 

[Tangled Tango]

^^
Anthing's possible, but the past has shown in cycling that in general (there can always be exceptions) unusual performances mean "old-fashioned" preparations.

So true. Last years Vuelta looked more than a little like the "good old days" when a leaders second in command´s (out of nowhere) is stronger than his leader. Remember the 1997 tdf? This years Dauphine is just a prelude of things to come. Yates is covering their collective buns, saying Wiggins hasn´t peaked yet. Sky will be flying come the tdf. Anyone know who their doctor is?

 

[euanli]

Are people still taking the suspicions index seriously?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So true. Last years Vuelta looked more than a little like the "good old days" when a leaders second in command´s (out of nowhere) is stronger than his leader. Remember the 1997 tdf? This years Dauphine is just a prelude of things to come. Yates is covering their collective buns, saying Wiggins hasn´t peaked yet. Sky will be flying come the tdf. Anyone know who their doctor is?

=

 

[roundabout]

The UCI index is a reasonably factual snapshot based on actual testing done.

 

[Lanark]

The UCI index is a reasonably factual snapshot based on actual testing done.

Yep, and can certainly be used as some corroborating evidence. It doesn't prove that everyone at the top of that list is doping, or that everyone at the bottom is clean, it just gives a decent indication of what was the case at that point in time.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Sky have gotten Cav to lose 4kgs. That would be roughly around a 5% increase in power on the climbs, wouldn't it? That's the clean way to do it.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cavendish-on-a-diet-for-olympics

 

[badboygolf16v]

Wiggins has also been outspokenly anti-doping.

Has is the important word. He won't even discuss it these days...

 

[DirtyWorks]

Are people still taking the suspicions index seriously?

Why not? It's important to understand many of the dope tests return a value in a range of values. The range of values goes from negative, to suspicious, to positive. Given the justifiable bias towards minimizing false positives, a suspicious value is a clear indicator of something.

Circumstantial evidence supporting the likelihood Sky's doping:
-the team doctor from Rabo's individualized doping program works for Sky.
-Rider on the suspicion index.
-Strategic trip to Tenerife and the remarkable climbing power graced to all who go to Tenerife with it's lack of testing, proximity to doping doctors and rumored loose borders.
-DS from the corroborated Armstrong/Tailwind doping program.
-Sky Train shattering the peloton on monster climbs.
-Sky Train wildly inconsistent possibly due to doping cycle.
-UCI seems to have blessed Sky based on some media reports that mirror the old Armstrong myth maintenance hyperbole. Everything is for sale at the UCI and Sky's backer has the ethics to buy.
-Wiggans has gone silent with the anti-doping rhetoric.

Circumstantial evidence supporting the "talent and hard work got them where they are now."
-2012 Wiggans is performing consistently.
-Sky Train performance wildly inconsistent due to a number of legitimate health issues resolving just in time.
-Sky simply purchased more talent for 2012 season.

What am I missing?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Sky have gotten Cav to lose 4kgs. That would be roughly around a 5% increase in power on the climbs, wouldn't it? That's the clean way to do it.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cavendish-on-a-diet-for-olympics

Cav's talents and body type don't support turning a Cav into even a Rouler much less an hors-category climbing contender.

There is some evidence to suggest beyond a certain point weight loss leads to a loss in power. On top of that, you can't apply the expectations of a rider like Cav to Wiggans or vice versa.

Academically it seems like it's possible, but it doesn't seem to work out that way in real life:

Before: 400W????/69K over 30 minutes == 5.79 W/Kilo
After: 400W???/65K over 30 minutes == 6.15 W/Kilo

 

[cocteau_ireland]

Why does a sporting publication not pitch up in Tenerife and follow the comings and goings of a certain team(s). Some research n photos could provide links to dodgy doctors

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Why is Wiggins's improvement being discussed in a thread about Team Sky?

2009 was his year of remarkable improvement and transformation, with Garmin.

Since then...

2010 - He tossed it off during the winter and paid the price with his performances.

2011 - Some improvement on 2009, but not astonishingly so. Won Dauphine, 3rd in La Vuelta and P-N, 2nd in ITT. Good results, but not ones that anybody woudl have said were beyond him.

2012 - Again, some improvement, but not astonishingly so. He's the man to beat over 1 week races, but then his 2011 form suggested that could be the case. His TTing has seemingly gone up a notch, but let's reserve judgement until he faces a top form Tony Martin. Climbing? Where's the evidence so far this year to suggest that's in a different league to before?


On the Tenerife thing, where should a European based team go in April when they want to do some serious climbing work, given that similarly sized mainland European climbs would be covered in snow at that point in time? Not being facetious, just asking where you would choose.

 

[zigmeister]

Why is Wiggins's improvement being discussed in a thread about Team Sky?

2009 was his year of remarkable improvement and transformation, with Garmin.

Since then...

2010 - He tossed it off during the winter and paid the price with his performances.

2011 - Some improvement on 2009, but not astonishingly so. Won Dauphine, 3rd in La Vuelta and P-N, 2nd in ITT. Good results, but not ones that anybody woudl have said were beyond him.

2012 - Again, some improvement, but not astonishingly so. He's the man to beat over 1 week races, but then his 2011 form suggested that could be the case. His TTing has seemingly gone up a notch, but let's reserve judgement until he faces a top form Tony Martin. Climbing? Where's the evidence so far this year to suggest that's in a different league to before?


On the Tenerife thing, where should a European based team go in April when they want to do some serious climbing work, given that similarly sized mainland European climbs would be covered in snow at that point in time? Not being facetious, just asking where you would choose.

But wait, you forgot to add in 2012 the recent news articles and Wiggins proclaiming how his "off-season training" has really changed the way he races. He is working with some not very well known former swimming coach that is now mysteriously training and using techniques that are making a cyclist and his team an amazing group of climbers!!!

Now he isn't showing up to race really, he is training to race and being on all the time.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

But wait, you forgot to add in 2012 the recent news articles and Wiggins proclaiming how his "off-season training" has really changed the way he races. He is working with some not very well known former swimming coach that is now mysteriously training and using techniques that are making a cyclist and his team an amazing group of climbers!!!

Now he isn't showing up to race really, he is training to race and being on all the time.

Wiggins to win Kona 2013?

 

[King Of The Wolds]

But wait, you forgot to add in 2012 the recent news articles and Wiggins proclaiming how his "off-season training" has really changed the way he races. He is working with some not very well known former swimming coach that is now mysteriously training and using techniques that are making a cyclist and his team an amazing group of climbers!!!

Now he isn't showing up to race really, he is training to race and being on all the time.

He's been working with Kerrison for 2 years, actually.

 

[Ripper]

Libertine immediately questioned your comment about Froome, but I have to agree. Sky has purchased some riders who have consistently shown upper echelon quality.

Wiggins says the swimming coach has them training differently ...

In terms of the quality of riders. When was the last time Rogers was riding this well? What team was he with again? Porte? Seriously? And Froome?? The thing is, the Sky riders all seem to be performing, ummm, better than one would think.

In terms of training, we have way, wayyyyy more information in our world now. If there was a training breakthrough, it would not be only one team that knew about it. There has been crossover from different sports for 10-20 years now. I doubt very much that it is a unique swimming based approach that is making the difference.

BTW - triathlon was in its infancy, so it would see large changes. That is pretty normal.

 

[Ripper]

Nobody was going to suggest that Ferrari and Freiburg client Rogers was clean right?

Thanks for pointing that out

 

[Ripper]

Why is Wiggins's improvement being discussed in a thread about Team Sky?

2009 was his year of remarkable improvement and transformation, with Garmin.

Since then...

2010 - He tossed it off during the winter and paid the price with his performances.

2011 - Some improvement on 2009, but not astonishingly so. Won Dauphine, 3rd in La Vuelta and P-N, 2nd in ITT. Good results, but not ones that anybody woudl have said were beyond him.

2012 - Again, some improvement, but not astonishingly so. He's the man to beat over 1 week races, but then his 2011 form suggested that could be the case. His TTing has seemingly gone up a notch, but let's reserve judgement until he faces a top form Tony Martin. Climbing? Where's the evidence so far this year to suggest that's in a different league to before?


On the Tenerife thing, where should a European based team go in April when they want to do some serious climbing work, given that similarly sized mainland European climbs would be covered in snow at that point in time? Not being facetious, just asking where you would choose.

Two things.

Wiggo is being discussed in a Sky thread because he is a Sky rider right now. Oh, and Sky is being discussed too.

In terms of progression, here is a better analysis for you ... (you will want to follow the link)

Bradley Wiggins in ITTs as a pro ...

 

[yourwelcome]

Are people still taking the suspicions index seriously?

I'm sure they do, but for UCI management some names now have a * next to their name.

* From key growth market. Riding for strategically v. important cashed up media sponsor.

 

[taiwan]

Why is Wiggins's improvement being discussed in a thread about Team Sky?

2009 was his year of remarkable improvement and transformation, with Garmin.

Since then...

2010 - He tossed it off during the winter and paid the price with his performances.

2011 - Some improvement on 2009, but not astonishingly so. Won Dauphine, 3rd in La Vuelta and P-N, 2nd in ITT. Good results, but not ones that anybody woudl have said were beyond him.

2012 - Again, some improvement, but not astonishingly so. He's the man to beat over 1 week races, but then his 2011 form suggested that could be the case. His TTing has seemingly gone up a notch, but let's reserve judgement until he faces a top form Tony Martin. Climbing? Where's the evidence so far this year to suggest that's in a different league to before?


On the Tenerife thing, where should a European based team go in April when they want to do some serious climbing work, given that similarly sized mainland European climbs would be covered in snow at that point in time? Not being facetious, just asking where you would choose.

Working with BC even while he was on Garmin obviously though, which isn't seperate from Sky.

 

[blackcat]

Bradley Wiggins in ITTs as a pro:

2002:
4th, Circuit des Mines (24km)
3rd, Bohemia Tour (no details, but 50" off Cancellara's winning time around 47 mins)
2nd, Tour de l'Avenir (9km - won by Pozzato of all people)

2003:
21st, Paris-Nice prologue (4,8km)
18th, Paris-Nice full length (16,5km)
5th, Driedaagse De Panne (14km)
65th, Giro d'Italia (42km)
6th, Tour du Poitou Charentes (20km)
1st, Tour de l'Avenir (11km)

2005:
2nd, Tour de l'Avenir (no length available) - was Wiggins really still eligible for this in '05?!
stage 5 22km
still a pro race, thing it was u26 and Wiggo with CreditAg, but you have great knowledge and can correct me if I am wrong. It bacame the u23 around this time I "think", but memory not too good now I have been out of following for a while..
1st, Quatre Jours de Dunkerque (9km)
1st, Dauphiné prologue (4,2km)
1st, Tour du Poitou Charentes (20km)

It's pretty clear that this year's results are noticeably better than before. Wiggins' ITT results have improved in the last four years, quite clearly, and this year most noticeably of all. And this is after he has improved his climbing chops and lost weight, whilst still being able to put down the same kind of power. Because he's always been a good TT rider, perhaps we've been prepared to accept it because he's just improved his climbing, but actually his TT has improved as well, just as I reconciled Kaisa Mäkäräinen's reinvention as a world beater with "well, she's always been quick on the skis, she's just improved her shooting". But her ski times were getting better and better as well, although having more to fight for was part of that of course.

I have been banging on about this point. As commentators always assert his is a timetrialer par excellence, like Cancellara, or Martin. But its a falacy. Good indeed. Never great. The track pursuit has coloured the lense and his perception. But the track pursuit is a weak discipline. Only the Aussies give a hoot apart from the Brits eh?

 

[blackcat]

Team Sky is just physiologically better than the rest of the guys out there.

yes. They have talented riders. But it is not an either/or speculation

 

[rhubroma]

Nothing new here boys. Just follow the money. Whose got it and who spends it? I'd guess the Murdock team wins both categories. Being partial to conspiracy theories myself I find it interesting that the dream team backed by Murdock billions finds itself with a VERY Wiggo friendly race course for the Tour... AND in the same the same year that the Olympics are on home turf..

Follow the Money.

And bringing Pantani down, paved the way for the Boss.