Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Moose McKnuckles]

maybe those who think we are to critical should read how Bradley himself reacted in 2007. Here's a choice quote.



And that was directly related to the Rasmussen affair... hmmmm... which doctor was involved again?

Pretty incredible quote, Franklin. Good find.

 

[The Cobra]

So either we have people that like to be wrong :

1 - Defend blatant doper
2 - Repeat step 1 for some time
3 - Get proven wrong ( sometimes 14 years later ).
4 - Repeat step 1 for another rider.
etc

or we only have new people every time to defend new riders.

Which one is it?

What happens if the rider is actually clean , and the person never gets proved wrong?

 

[issoisso]

Does he genuinely have no idea who Geert Leinders is, though? If he didn't, a simple Google search would illuminate all manner of things. I understand why JV might want to avoid engaging on that issue, but that is certainly what he is doing.

I tweeted JV who Leinders is and Franklin's great find.
His response was, and I quote: "Touché"

 

[hrotha]

maybe those who think we are to critical should read how Bradley himself reacted in 2007. Here's a choice quote.

If there's a 1% suspicion or doubt that a team is involved in any way in a drugs ring or doping or working with certain doctors, then they shouldn't be invited to the Tour de France - as simple as that - they shouldn't even be given a racing licence until they can prove that they are, through stringent testing procedures, that they are not involved in any wrong doing - until then the ASO shouldn't have them in the Tour de France and the UCI should not have them in the sport.

And that was directly related to the Rasmussen affair... hmmmm... which doctor was involved again?

OK, since that other post was deleted, this is the new post of the day. Thank you, Franklin and Bradley.

 

[thehog]

Does he genuinely have no idea who Geert Leinders is, though? If he didn't, a simple Google search would illuminate all manner of things. I understand why JV might want to avoid engaging on that issue, but that is certainly what he is doing.

JV knows what’s up at Sky. I still feel that he reconciling it his head still. He doesn’t want believe it and I know that if (when) Wiggins gets popped people will point fingers at him also for “finding” Wiggins. That he has to be prepared for.

 

[Franklin]

Pretty incredible quote, Franklin. Good find.

No, thank Robert21

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=9295&page=18

 

[JRTinMA]

Does he genuinely have no idea who Geert Leinders is, though? If he didn't, a simple Google search would illuminate all manner of things. I understand why JV might want to avoid engaging on that issue, but that is certainly what he is doing.

Which is why he should never respond to twitter trolls, he can't win. Things can be confusing in 180 characters, but yes I suspect he knew Geert, although its also reasonable to believe he didn't. Its a fairly common name.

 

[Falken]

Does he genuinely have no idea who Geert Leinders is, though? If he didn't, a simple Google search would illuminate all manner of things. I understand why JV might want to avoid engaging on that issue, but that is certainly what he is doing.

I tried Google, couldn't find much other than links to different forums. You have some credible links (preferably in english)? I like to read up on the guy.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

You know how they reboot move franchises with stupid new premises? "It's the Muppets....IN SPACE!....It's die hard.....IN AN AIRPORT!"
It's the US Postal franchise being rebooted in england with Bradley Wiggins playing Lance Armstrong, and we know the story so well we can recognize every single line the fans excuse themselves with.

If I didn't buy those lies when they were fresh, why did they think I would buy them ten years later "on DVD" you muppets?

Exactly. It's amazing how the same garbage gets recycled, with just a different flag stamped on there.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So if JV doesn't want to argue with mindless idiots on twitter he's practicing omertà? The fact that he even responds to those tools should be evidence enough he is not practicing omertà.

JV makes his own choices and is seemingly such an idiot to be on networks like twitter. When being asked a normal question he basicly says 'nothing to see here, walk on'. Everybody in cycling knows who Leinders is. He was a doctor at the famous Post ploeg in the eighties, that's how far back he should be known.

Just like every other Directeur Sportif in cycling he is full of crapp. Why did he for instance have Allen Lim on his staff? Shannon Sovndal, who is in buisiness with him and VandeVelde? Clean cycling my ***.

I tried Google, couldn't find much other than links to different forums. You have some credible links (preferably in english)? I like to read up on the guy.

http://www.dopingzaak.nl/blog/2012/05/07/sky/

Don't know if its google translated though.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Guys, the thread is not about Jv or garmin. #justsaying

 

[taiwan]

Big difference and big mistake for Wigans. He never had a life threatening illness and has not wrapped himself with some charity/foundation.

He didn't follow the established blueprint.

There is a foundation BTW, it was pointed out in here. issoisso calls it well. I'd suggest the next franchise should be "Deutsche Post", but it probably wouldn't wash there.

 

[Falken]

http://www.dopingzaak.nl/blog/2012/05/07/sky/Don't know if its google translated though.

I google translated it. Can't say the short text gave much info on Geert Leinders. It says he left Rabobank in 2009 for unknown reasons, that it probably had to do with the doping investigation concerning Rasmussen, but it doesn't say for sure that this was the case. Before 1996 he was with Lotto.
That's about it.

Anyone has anything more on Geert Leinders?

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

http://www.dopingzaak.nl/blog/2012/05/07/sky/

.

The files on the teams on this site are fascinating.

Orica Green Edge's doctor is especially worrying.

 

[Franklin]

I tried Google, couldn't find much other than links to different forums. You have some credible links (preferably in english)? I like to read up on the guy.

it is reported that Raas gave Leinders Carte Blanche around 1999 as long as he kept it somewhat save. This has not been disputed by either Raas, Leinders or the Rabobank. If you do a "Raas-Leinders" Google you will find these claims. I haven't found the source yet (I think it's an article of journalist Wagendorp), but as I said, this is undisputed by all parties involved.

Cyclingnews has the important info about 2003-2007.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rabobank-tolerated-doping-on-cycling-team-de-rooy-claims

Let me point out something revealing:

Theo de Rooy who was team manager from 2003 to 2007, did not deny that there was doping on the team. “If it happened, it was a deliberate decision by the medical staff,”

Once again: Undisputed by anyone involved.

Added to this are things like:

- Breukink, De rooij and leinders knew of Rasmussen whereabouts and did not report this (fraud). They were aware of Rasmussen extra- medical care and didn't stop it. <=> if we look at the role of the medical staff, the knowledge and this case it should set all alarms.
- Somehow they were not aware of the Humanplasma case. I'm quite frankly absolutely not convinced that a doctor did not notice this of his riders, especially seen his given role (namely to monitor and dope in a healthy manner). And yes, there are plenty of reports (including Floyd) about Boogie being a charger.

Lastly, before you wonder; I think Breukink should be banned from the sport.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

A bull**** PR stunt that will achieve nothing. It's just ridiculous. Why would Brailsford think it's a good idea to present sports science to a load of non sports scientists?

Let Michael Ashenden, for instance, review Sky's presentation, online or in the press. That would be the appropriate way for this debate to proceed.

Let's get the critics' hate and the fans' love out of this situation. The constituencies disagree on how to interpret the Team Sky narrative.
Expert commentary is what's needed to silence the doubters.

Brad published some blood values at Garmin. Here's what an expert (Jakob Moerkeberg) had to say.

AS: Can you tell me about your background?

JM: I'm an exercise physiologist, Copenhagen University graduating 2006, and I have just written up my PhD and submitted it one week ago, the PhD is about detecting autologous blood transfusions in an anti-doping context.

AS: And you have published with Damsgaard and Ashenden.

JM: Yes.

AS: Are you on the bio passport board? Do you have access to that information?

JM: No.

AS: Were you able to look at other values from the Tour?

JM: I've only seen Bradley Wiggins' values.

AS: Some have said that Wiggins' values are also suspicious. Do you agree with that?

JM: He hasn't published as many values, but his values are not following a pattern that you would expect from a physiological point of view.

http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/armstrongs-bio-passport-critic-speaks

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Guys, the thread is not about Jv or garmin. #justsaying

Back on topic. Did a little bit of research, took me for about one minute. Leinders quit Rabobank on 3th of juli 2009, Thomas Dekker had his retrospective positive on the first of july 2009. All a coincidence off course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Dekker_(cyclist)

http://www.telegraaf.nl/telesport/wielersport/4313591/__Rabo-arts_Geert_Leinders_stapt_op__.html

Leinders, Rabo, Humanplasma in Vienna, ring a bell?

 

[Catwhoorg]

Just like 'expert witnesses' at a trial, you shop around long enough you will find one who says what you want.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

This is harsh. People have written entire books on the evidence and case against Lance. At the minute I have not heard or seen anything even remotely damning against wiggins, just a few accusations. I've learnt never to say so and so is def clean because generally in the past it just hasn't been true. I also understand the sceptics point of view but there is nothing yet to sway me apart from a strong performance from a strong team.

Dirty doctor, dirty riders, abnormal passports, 4 team mates improving hugely at the same time, what more do you need?

Shane Stokes cycling‏@SSbike
Geert Leinders - he was with Rabobank when it had a tolerance, Jan Koerts said he helped him stay below 50%

Rabobank tolerated doping on cycling team, De Rooy claims

Medical staff said to have overseen riders' activities

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rabobank-tolerated-doping-on-cycling-team-de-rooy-claims

The French newspaper L'Equipe on Friday published a list of all the riders participating in last year's Tour de France and their individual scores of suspicion for doping from a confidential International Cycling Union document.

As explained by the newspaper, only the scores of zero and one meant that the riders had a very clean record. Ratings from two to four were based on stable passports which nevertheless showed a rare abnormality at a precise time. From five upwards, the comments associated to the rider files started to become much more precise, "even affirmative" according to L'Equipe.

From six to ten, the circumstantial evidence of possible doping was "overwhelming". According to the paper, some of the riders located to the top of list have already been singled out by the biological passport and evaluated by the panel of nine experts, even if no procedure was opened. "Still, some of the files' commentaries are damning. Recurrent abnormal profiles, enormous fluctuations, identification of the used doping product and means of administration..." wrote L'Equipe's anti-doping expert journalist Damien Ressiot.

5 ...Bradley Wiggins

6 ...Christian Knees... Geraint Thomas

7 ...Michael Rogers

8 ...Kanstantsin Siutsou

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ucis-suspicious-list-leaked-from-2010-tour-de-france

 

[_frost]

yes he is but that is before he dropped 20Kg, how can you reduce such muscle mass without losing power, from normal Physiology point of view, it is just impossible.

Can you explain the mechanism or point to a study that explains how losing muscle mass reduces (sustainable aerobic) power?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Just like 'expert witnesses' at a trial, you shop around long enough you will find one who says what you want.

Last week Jakob Mørkeberg was quoted by the Danish news outlet DR Sport as saying that he had concerns about blood values posted by Lance Armstrong on the Livestrong.com website (link to external website opens in new window). The Bispebjerg Hospital anti-doping researcher has worked on many scientific studies, including a 2008 paper co-written with Belhage and Damsgaard entitled Changes in Blood Profiles during Tour de France 2007, and stated that expected trends over a three week race were not seen in the Texan’s data.

"What we know from our research is that during periods of hard activity, like in the Tour de France, we normally see a drop in these blood values. We don't see this with Armstrong," he told DR Sport.

Mørkeberg has just finished a Ph. D. dissertation entitled Detection of Autologous Blood Transfusions via Analyses of Peripheral Blood Samples, and is working on a method to trace this method of doping.

His aforementioned Tour de France study catalogued seven riders in the 2007 race, revealing lower hemoglobin and lower hematocrit (percentage of red blood cells in whole blood) on day 19 when compared to their pre-Tour reading. On average hemoglobin dropped 11.5% and hematocrit fell by 12.1%, keeping in line with physiological expectations.

Clearly, he knows nothing about the subject.

 

[User Guide]

No, thank Robert21

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=9295&page=18

Wow if wiggins of 2007 can be seduced by the dark side(at least in atitude towards doping) what hope is there really? clean peleton lol, how many names implicated with ferrari jnr's company?(ferrari) how many does pozatto say openly work with ferrari.Where the <insert wigginism here> do we go from here?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

If there's a 1% suspicion or doubt that a team is involved in any way in a drugs ring or doping or working with certain doctors, then they shouldn't be invited to the Tour de France

Man, that's gold!

Say hello to Dr. Leinders

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The files on the teams on this site are fascinating.

Orica Green Edge's doctor is especially worrying.

Why? Mapei, Quick Step, Galicia? Squicky clean. Lol.

Not to forget where the boys get TB and Aicar. Aussies rule

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

How often must I say that those Wiggins words are not allowed here????

Susan