Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[maxmartin]

It's interesting to watch Sky this month. They're ripping up the race, dominating the mountains and the TT's. 3 different stage winners, holding the maillot jaune and the 2nd place. All should be good on Team Sky. But I'd love to be a fly on the wall of their bus. They've upset some rivals, their team leader had an embarrassing meltdown, they've got the strongest man in the race holding back and trying not to win, embarrassing his leader in the process, they've got the best sprinter in the world isolated and watching lesser talents win multiple stages, and half the fans believe that they're the most doped bunch in the race. I would love to know just how happy Wiggins, Froome, and Cav really are with their tour thus far. Even the women are getting into it - they've got to take Yoko Wiggo's twitter away from her before she breaks up the band. I think Wiggins is going to win this thing and hear nothing but "Froome was stronger" for the rest of his life.

honestly i can't see anyone of them being happy now, it is a shame when you are suppose to race with the fun

 

[xcleigh]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...-data-to-bolster-clean-racing-argument_229792

“Sometimes, I feel like, for certain people, whatever you do will never be enough. Unless they came and lived with me for 12 months, which I’m not prepared to do,”

I do think it's a case of damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. As as been admirably illustrated in these here pages whatever Brad Wiggins does or says will for some never be enough. I think many seem to actually love the whole do they, don't they, doping saga. People here actually seem to love the thought of being one step ahead and knowing 'exactly' what is going on. A good old fashioned conspiracy theory gets the posters going All based on certain looks, innuendo, TV pictures (how do you tell that someone is not even trying simply through watching the TV coverage - secret access to their live power meters perhaps??). Anyhooo that's my two-penneths worth. I think until proven guilty I'll continue to enjoy a Brit leading the Tour and others can continue to enjoy coming up with more conspiracies regarding Team Sky's doping 'program'

 

[maxmartin]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...-data-to-bolster-clean-racing-argument_229792

“Sometimes, I feel like, for certain people, whatever you do will never be enough. Unless they came and lived with me for 12 months, which I’m not prepared to do,”

I do think it's a case of damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. As as been admirably illustrated in these here pages whatever Brad Wiggins does or says will for some never be enough. I think many seem to actually love the whole do they, don't they, doping saga. People here actually seem to love the thought of being one step ahead and knowing 'exactly' what is going on. A good old fashioned conspiracy theory gets the posters going All based on certain looks, innuendo, TV pictures (how do you tell that someone is not even trying simply through watching the TV coverage - secret access to their live power meters perhaps??). Anyhooo that's my two-penneths worth. I think until proven guilty I'll continue to enjoy a Brit leading the Tour and others can continue to enjoy coming up with more conspiracies regarding Team Sky's doping 'program'

It is not just about Wiggins even he might be clean, the question is about the whole team. As if by magic all the riders in the team peak at the same time, do you know how hard and incredible that is if you have any decent cycling knowledge? There is such team before in the tour history and you should know the name.

 

[maltiv]

It is not just about Wiggins even he might be clean, the question is about the whole team. As if by magic all the riders in the team peak at the same time, do you know how hard and incredible that is if you have any decent cycling knowledge? There is such team before in the tour history and you should know the name.

To be fair, most riders have been in top form, or close, the entire year. In my view, that's a little less suspicious than suddenly showing up with great form after sucking for months.

Also worth to add that Cav and Eisel seem to be quite far away from their top form.

 

[D-Queued]

To be fair, most riders have been in top form, or close, the entire year. In my view, that's a little less suspicious than suddenly showing up with great form after sucking for months.

Also worth to add that Cav and Eisel seem to be quite far away from their top form.

... and amazing how Frank Schleck recovered his form so well after the rest day.

Dave

 

[Apollonius]

... and amazing how Frank Schleck recovered his form so well after the rest day.

Dave

Well rest days do tend to encourage that! And to be frank (excuse the pun) it's not as if Frank has set the tour alight with any kind of magnificent performance since the rest days. He's shown a slight improvement but he's still massively off form. Comments such as the above, disregarding so many facts, always appear a tad desperate!

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Why is Wiggins pretending like he's done so much to prove he's clean?
What exactly have you done, Bradley? You get tested, just like everyone else. That's it!

 

[D-Queued]

Well rest days do tend to encourage that! And to be frank (excuse the pun) it's not as if Frank has set the tour alight with any kind of magnificent performance since the rest days. He's shown a slight improvement but he's still massively off form. Comments such as the above, disregarding so many facts, always appear a tad desperate!

Apparently Frank has good recovery.

What facts am I disregarding? Frank couldn't hang out with Froome and Wiggins. Then he could.

How is that observation desperate?

Dave.

 

[maxmartin]

To be fair, most riders have been in top form, or close, the entire year. In my view, that's a little less suspicious than suddenly showing up with great form after sucking for months.

Also worth to add that Cav and Eisel seem to be quite far away from their top form.

"most riders have been in top form", didn't people who defend Sky performance by saying field is weak people not in the good form, that is the reason why sky domestiques can drop most GC contenders.

Cav and Eisel are not in the core gang, they don't even train at Teide. Eisel used unbelievable and speechless to describe the Froom the TT, not sure that is a good thing or not.

 

[FabulousCandelabra]

Jim Ochowicz hinting at the truth of the matter - "We have to keep testing otherwise we lose."

In reference to drug testing Sky so that Cadel can turn a 3rd place into 1st place retroactively??

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bmc-has-not-given-up-on-tour-de-france-win

 

[rockclimber]

This is worth reading
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blo...iggins-dope-drugs?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

 

[pot belge]

Perhaps Tesco could start sponsoring a cycling team. I wonder if Wiggans is losing the plot, what does he know about stacking shelves?

Also sounds like the old "why would I jeoprdise my health after having cancer" that Lance used to spout.

 

[Square-pedaller]

This is worth reading
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blo...iggins-dope-drugs?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Yes, you'll find the discussion somewhere upthread.

 

[maxmartin]

This is worth reading
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blo...iggins-dope-drugs?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

discussed before and congrats this is your first post

 

[simoni]

As far as I can remember, there's nothing in the article about where the curve comes from. It's clearly not a good fit to the data points, because the last 9 or 10 points are all above the curve. Whether it's a curve fitted mathematically to other points, a curve fitted by eye to other points (notoriously difficult to do), or just Brailsford's idea of what the curve looks like isn't clear.

If you read the article its something brailsford drew on the back of a napkin and CS approximated it. An approximation of an approximation if you will. Only in clinic world would it be pulled apart in such detail!

 

[Telmisartan new]

discussed before and congrats this is your first post

This is my first post too. Made some comments on Guardian pages about credibility of Sky at La Planche des Belle Filles. Instant barrage of xenophobic jingoistic nationalist abuse, my comments were removed less than an hour later.

Froome basically negates any arguments for me,others have said Rogers is the tell or even Porte but Froome's transformation is beyond belief.

Factor in Wiggins/Brailsford's increasingly bizarre comments and behaviour and you have a story.

 

[oldcrank]

I really like the video diaries done by G and BoHag.
A couple of fine young lads and great athletes too.

 

[The Real GFY]

I really like the video diaries done by G and BoHag.
A couple of fine young lads and great athletes too.

That's good for you I guess.

I thought the clinic was for doping related chit chat, and it was created so that such chit chat would not impact conversations in the racing threads. I can totally understand that, as doping conversations can often take their own tangent and go on and on. However, I am not sure why you are posting this material in the clinic when you could post it in the racing part of the forum.

Is this some bizarre form of trolling?

 

[clipperton]

Is this some bizarre form of trolling?

presumably it's a defence against clinic-related accusations levelled at their team, as it's getting harder to find a logical defence.

 

[Cerberus]

Some danish fellow who is not an anti-doping expert?
**** off!

But isn't that sort of true? I mean it's not like jakob Mørkeberg has gotten grants from Anti Doping Denmark for research on doping in 2006, 2008, 2009 and 2011 or anything.

 

[D-Queued]

But isn't that sort of true? I mean it's not like jakob Mørkeberg has gotten grants from Anti Doping Denmark for research on doping in 2006, 2008, 2009 and 2011 or anything.

2010 was the only year that counts.

Dave.

 

[MrRoboto]

As far as I can remember, there's nothing in the article about where the curve comes from. It's clearly not a good fit to the data points, because the last 9 or 10 points are all above the curve. Whether it's a curve fitted mathematically to other points, a curve fitted by eye to other points (notoriously difficult to do), or just Brailsford's idea of what the curve looks like isn't clear.

It's not supposed to fit the points. If that was the case, everybody on the team would have the same supposed potential.

 

[Square-pedaller]

Originally Posted by Square-pedaller
As far as I can remember, there's nothing in the article about where the curve comes from. It's clearly not a good fit to the data points, because the last 9 or 10 points are all above the curve. Whether it's a curve fitted mathematically to other points, a curve fitted by eye to other points (notoriously difficult to do), or just Brailsford's idea of what the curve looks like isn't clear.

If you read the article its something brailsford drew on the back of a napkin and CS approximated it. An approximation of an approximation if you will. Only in clinic world would it be pulled apart in such detail!

I think you've missed the point of what I was saying: it's not at all clear where the curve 'comes from' (we could go one stage back and ask is this just Brailsford's idea about the shape of the curve (where the peak is, how quickly it drops after the peak, etc) or has he (or someone else) derived the curve from real data), and therefore the conclusions we can draw by comparing the points to the line are limited.

It's not supposed to fit the points. If that was the case, everybody on the team would have the same supposed potential.

This is what I mean by a curve fitting the data: "Curve fitting is the process of constructing a curve, or mathematical function, that has the best fit to a series of data points" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve_fitting
When I say it's not a good fit to the data, I'm not saying that it doesn't go through every point, but that it clearly isn't the best fit, in the sense of summarizing as well as possible the relationship between the two variables (in this casebetween rider performance and age).

 

[badboygolf16v]

As as been admirably illustrated in these here pages whatever Brad Wiggins does or says will for some never be enough. I think many seem to actually love the whole do they, don't they, doping saga. People here actually seem to love the thought of being one step ahead and knowing 'exactly' what is going on. A good old fashioned conspiracy theory gets the posters going All based on certain looks, innuendo, TV pictures (how do you tell that someone is not even trying simply through watching the TV coverage - secret access to their live power meters perhaps??). Anyhooo that's my two-penneths worth. I think until proven guilty I'll continue to enjoy a Brit leading the Tour and others can continue to enjoy coming up with more conspiracies regarding Team Sky's doping 'program'

Innocent until proven guilty? Sorry but that doesn't work in pro cycling and you know it. Or maybe you don't? Maybe you think pro cycling's like a bunch of lads out on an evening chain gang? Well it aint, there's a lot of money involved. It's a business.

Conspiracy theory? You're using the phrase disparagingly. This isn't the moon landing being faked we're talking about. We're talking about the possibility of an actual conspiracy. Refer to the real life conspiracy being prosecuted by USADA going back to 2010. That's not ancient history is it?

There's a body of circumstantial evidence that is hard to ignore. All documented here, if you would care to search for it. No one's accusing Brad because he has shifty eyes or some such.

To satisfy The Clinic, Brad can publish his figures (as he has advocated in the past) and they can be discussed with an independent expert. Which I think would be in line with Sky's 'zero tolerance to doping' approach and Brad's support for transparency in the peloton.

 

[oldcrank]

Is this some bizarre form of trolling?

Not at all. I thought that some people might like to analyze
what they're saying (or more importantly what they're not
saying) and their body language for proof positive that
they are doping. And BTW congrats to Swifty on his
two stage wins in Poland. Not bad for a trackie!