Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[the big ring]

Indeed, although I believe he claimed he slowed up his cadence,

Yes. He is going from high kinetic pedaling style (track-based background) to Jan Ullrich-esque style (low kinetic / high torque / slow cadence) pedaling style.

I fail to see what rolling resistance has to do with any of this, as it's dependent on your speed, not your cadence.

I paid particular attention to Brad's uphill cadence in the TdF. He was pedaling ridiculously fast - esp compared to Porte and Evans. If he really has changed his TT cadence by doing uphill low cadence training, you'd think his uphill riding style would change also. It definitely has not.

I do not have video access to the final TT, but gut instinct tells me this is a crock, and that his TT cadence was quick, and not slow at all.

Further: pedaling uphill on a road bike (assumption) does very little to improve your cadence on the TT machine.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Higher cadence on climbs places more demand on your O2 system, and less stress on your myological system. If your blood's that good (or your VO2), then you can dodge the effects of pushing a big gear.

In a TT (assumed to be flatish), the ability to drive a bigger gear without red-lining your lactate system will result in you going faster.

Obviously a track background will play into this since you can't change gears on a track bike. A rider has to find the balance between starting fast enough, and having enough meat to drive it for 4km. I'm sure high cadence is natural for a trackie, where it's less efficient for a road TTer.

Mind you, gear choices have changed a lot in the last decade or so. The TP guys are pushing huge gears now!

Hmmm... just re-read my post. Pretty much pointless.

 

[filipo]

This Jorg Jaksche interview came up recently in a separate thread. This bit stuck out at me the most:

The [2006 Tour de Suisse] podium pictures show his jersey just hanging off of him, he weighed 65 kg at most. “I looked terrible” says Jaksche.

Hmm, now where have I see that before...

 

[Darryl Webster]

...just a little thought re the Olympic RR...of the kind that appeals here in the clinic
..is it not the case that medical control at the games does NOT have UCI oversight?
Perhaps a bit close to the tour to risk a podium but ok to but on a good show and then **** up the the last 50km?
Just thinking aloud here

 

[the big ring]

Can anyone find video footage of either TdF TT from 2012? That should answer the question pretty quick...

 

[thehog]

From Wiggins blogpost: "I still lost a minute and 20sec, which was high given the power I averaged. To keep my usual high cadence and go faster than Tony, I'd have had to average a power output that would have been mind blowing." following up with: "Tim studied it over the winter and decided maybe it was the cadence which was the problem. They worked out Tony's rpm compared to mine and something to do with rolling resistance and with the gears" and ending with: " So at the Tour, in the time trials I was making what I call a Jan Ullrich-esque effort – powering the gear a lot rather than spinning along, and that forward momentum for the same power has helped me go a bit further"

This is patently ludicrous. To go faster in a time trial you can either 1. Produce more power, or 2) become more aero. Now spinning a higher cadence doesnt make you go faster for the same wattage, that is quite obvious.

This is genius:

"...powering the gear a lot rather than spinning along, and that forward momentum for the same power has helped me go a bit further"

That beggars belief. Powering the gear? and Forward momentum? That's a new concept! Forward momentum.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

This is genius:

"...powering the gear a lot rather than spinning along, and that forward momentum for the same power has helped me go a bit further"

That beggars belief. Powering the gear? and Forward momentum? That's a new concept! Forward momentum.

Damn it! That was my problem when I raced, I was focusing on my backward momentum! I always wondered why I could kick *ss through the feed zone...

 

[Montanus]

Can anyone find video footage of either TdF TT from 2012? That should answer the question pretty quick...

Here is over an hour from the TT in DL this year, same course as stage 19 in TdF.

http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/ciclismo/ciclismo-dauphine-libere-cuarta-etapa-07-06-12/1431023/

 

[Montanus]

This Jorg Jaksche interview came up recently in a separate thread. This bit stuck out at me the most:



Hmm, now where have I see that before...

Do you know who many Froome legs you can fit in a Griepel leg?

At least 10 I guess.

 

[chrisb]

Do you know who many Froome legs you can fit in a Griepel leg?

At least 10 I guess.

thats the physique of a man that beat Fabian Cancellara in a TT dont you know

oh yeah, and after him doing 2 days domestique work in the Alps

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

...just a little thought re the Olympic RR...of the kind that appeals here in the clinic
..is it not the case that medical control at the games does NOT have UCI oversight?
Perhaps a bit close to the tour to risk a podium but ok to but on a good show and then **** up the the last 50km?
Just thinking aloud here

IOC/UCI; what's in a name?

Like ur paranoia though

Sky could never have won this with only three guys on board, against a riotting peloton with almost only TT/puncheurs on the final break. Hell, even young Rigoberto couldn't sprint anymore

In the TT tomorrow it will be a steady 1-2. Maybe Rogers will complete the charade.

 

[thehog]

Do you know who many Froome legs you can fit in a Griepel leg?

At least 10 I guess.

Check out the bone idle lazy c*** in the background. Hands in pocket, waiting for a bus. He's never worked hard for anything. C***!

 

[Bala Verde]

The oracle's take on the Tdf 53x12:

Two hours of individual time trial compared to the sixteen minutes of climbing to Beille Filles (8.5% average gradient) and thirty minutes going up to Peyragudes (9 + 3 km at 7.7%) definitely favored the British couple, who also proved to be the strongest uphill, not conceding anything to rivals.

Tall and skinny seems to be the prototype of the upcoming generation of riders, all around 190 cm, very performing but also probably rather weak when confronted with the many contingencies that may arise in a three-week stage race.

No rival then, but above all, no team has really succeeded in trying to move the challenge towards a the endurance side, by attacking far from the finish line, mainly because of the utter dominance of team Sky, which has literally outperformed the competition.

In the final time trial of 53.5 km, assuming an equal aerodynamic efficiency (which is not), Wiggins expressed 4.1% more power than Froome, 8.2% more of the good Van Garderen, 11.9% more than Nibali...

http://www.53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=132

 

[Darryl Webster]

IOC/UCI; what's in a name?

Like ur paranoia though

.

Im not so certain Fearless : IOC-LOCOG-UKAD WORKING
GROUP
A Task Force, composed of representatives
from the IOC, UK Anti-Doping (UKAD) and the
London Organising Committee of the Olympic
Games (LOCOG), will be set up for the Games.
LOCOG is responsible for tests at Olympic
venues, while UKAD will perform tests
everywhere else under the IOC’s authority. The
IOC is exclusively responsible for managing the
results.
WADA-ACCREDITED LABORATORY
The WADA-accredited laboratory, located on
the premises of the GlaxoSmithKline facilities in
Harlow, will use the most up-to-date
technologies and operate 24 hours a day, 7
days a week during the Games. Up to 400
samples will be tested every day.
The shortest test turnaround time will be 24
hours (some tests will take longer). A team of
more than 150 anti-doping scientists from
several countries will carry out the testing at
Games time, led by Professor David Cowan
from the Drug Control Centre at King’s College
London.
Defo less control over the tests than the TDF.
http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reference_documents_Factsheets/Fight_against_doping.pdf

If Froome and Wiggo and the rest of the Sky boys "bomb" tomorrow I wont be in the slightest bit surprised

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Im not so certain Fearless : IOC-LOCOG-UKAD WORKING
GROUP

Who funded Conconi for an EPO test? Wouldn't be the IOC hey

If Froome and Wiggo and the rest of the Sky boys "bomb" tomorrow I wont be in the slightest bit surprised

I will be in front of the tele swearing and shouting - can't help it - at what we all know will happen.

1 Wiggo
2 Froome
3 Rogers/Fabian/Martin

Frrrrooome phone home.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Who funded Conconi for an EPO test? Wouldn't be the IOC hey

I will be in front of the tele swearing and shouting - can't help it - at what we all know will happen.

1 Wiggo
2 Froome
3 Rogers/Fabian/Martin

Frrrrooome phone home.

Ya probably right Fearles...but if ya not remember were you heard it first.
"Excuse" is ready made..tired from the TDF and Saturdays RR

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Check out the bone idle lazy c*** in the background. Hands in pocket, waiting for a bus. He's never worked hard for anything. C***!

Your quote made the photo worthwhile.

On that note; how come Canc has the typical TT body of a rather massive *ss and upper legs, and Wiggo looks like he just got released from a three-month long hostage situtation?

You can't tell me pertinent physiology changes over a few-year period...

 

[The Cobra]

Ya probably right Fearles...but if ya not remember were you heard it first.
"Excuse" is ready made..tired from the TDF and Saturdays RR

Ah right I get it now.

Wiggo wins = dope
Wiggo loses = dope

It all makes sense now.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Ya probably right Fearles...but if ya not remember were you heard it first.
"Excuse" is ready made..tired from the TDF and Saturdays RR

I fear Wiggo is such an idle **** he wants to break down sir Steven Redgrave.

No fear, Wiggo is here!

 

[BroDeal]

Your quote made the photo worthwhile.

On that note; how come Canc has the typical TT body of a rather massive *ss and upper legs, and Wiggo looks like he just got released from a three-month long hostage situtation?

You can't tell me pertinent physiology changes over a few-year period...

It is sort of weird that both Wiggins and Froome have the same body type. They have super thin lower legs. You see this in east African runners.

Maybe just a coincidence. Then again perhaps the dope de jour of each era favors a certain body type.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Ah right I get it now.

Wiggo wins = dope
Wiggo loses = dope

It all makes sense now.

Yeh, I know, makes no sense does it...untill ya wrap ya head around the fact that Olympics road events don't mean much to the pros compared to the GT,s, Classics and the World Champs.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Yeh, I know, makes no sense does it...untill ya wrap ya head around the fact that Olympics road events don't mean much to the pros compared to the GT,s, Classics and the World Champs.

Can't argue with that. The start line for the RR looked like blokes heading for a night out, and wishing each other luck on finding a hottie...

PT pros never should've been allowed into the games. It destroyed the development programs of pretty much all nations involved.

 

[the sceptic]

Wow. Wiggins is a gigantic favourite for tomorrow according to the betting market. All that cadence work is gonna pay off

 

[mastersracer]

Seems like Wiggins is just saying he decreased his cadence to improve efficiency, which is in line with the literature (Leirdal, etc). The point about resistance may be something about drivetrain efficiency (maybe indirectly something like lower cadence = more chain tension = improved drivetrain efficiency, which is reported in the literature). Surprised he didn't say anything about cog size.

FWIW, there's been some recent discussion about whether Sky is overestimating power based on the O.Symmetric rings and how the SRM estimates power (which assumes constant angular velocity). Not sure if Sky has reported being aware of this or using a fix.

 

[will10]

Seems like Wiggins is just saying he decreased his cadence to improve efficiency, which is in line with the literature (Leirdal, etc)

And yet for someone kicking out in the region of 470-480W in long ITTs, his cadence flies in the face of Dr. Ferrari's theories

World Champs 09 - Time Trial
By: Michele Ferrari
Published: 24 Sep 2009

A STRATOSPHERIC Fabian Cancellara impressed everyone on the roads of his home country, summoning a performance (51.6 km/h, V2=2663) 5% higher than the second placed (Larrson, 50.3 km/h, V2=2533) and 8.8% higher than the third (Martin, 49.5km/h, V2=2450).
And all the other rivals even further down.

Imagine the same happening in a Half-Marathon World Championship (an event that is about 1h long, much like today's TT), where the second placed athlete would lose 10"/km to the winner, and finish the race with a 3' gap, with the third athlete at more than 5'...

Perfect in his position as usual, very skilled in handling the bike, he was going at over 55 km/h on the flat parts, with cadences between 115-120RPM, pushing at least an average of 500w: after all, when developing such high power outputs the ideal cadence is above 110RPM .

He even gave the impression of holding it back in the second half of the event, getting across the line in evident freshness.

He looks impressively thin, with the upper body much lighter than in the past and arms that really looked like broom sticks.
So light and powerful, he clearly becomes a favorite for Sunday's road event.