Teams & Riders Team Movistar-thread

[tobydawq]

Re:

If you are ending 5th, you definitely aren't able to help your captain in that race. You should at least win to be able to say that, at the bare minimum!

....

Yeah, you almost have to go 0th or lower.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

Ok, I have a kind of bet for you.
If Rojas is in top-20 of AGR I will immediately quit this forum, if not.. you will do it.

That escalated quickly. Aren't those stakes a bit unnecessarily high? If you really want to bet, make an avatar bet

 

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

Maybe you both are right. Two following sentences were:
"This team looks solid enough. If any of them are there in the end for Alejandro Rojas is the most likely to be of any use to him."
Well, the words like "if any" and "of any use" suggest that I was wrong.
It was admitted that Rojas hardly would be of any use.

 

[Koronin]

I'm still trying to figure out where any of said he would definitely be of any help at the end of this race, just that it is POSSIBLE. With Rojas having finished 5th last year, it is possible or likely that he will be there at the end of the race this year.

 

[Koronin]

Since it doesn't appear that Carlos Barbero has his own thread I'll put this here. He won the first stage of Vuelta a Castilla y Leon and with the win got the over all leaders jersey as well. Yes it's only a continental race, but a win is a win and this is a home race for him. He is now the 5th rider on Movistar's team to get a win this season. Maybe an even sadder stat is he is the only rider at Movistar (other than Valverde) to have multiple wins since Valverde's injury last summer as he was the only rider on this team to get a win last year after Valverde's injury. He won twice before the end of last season and now once so far this year. Just thought Carlos Barbero deserved a little acknowledgement for his win.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Barbero's ceiling is winning small, spanish races where the competition isn't great and he is damn good at it with his ability to sprint and climb decently well. Gets overmatched in bigger races, but still able to top-10. I think he will race all the upcoming spanish stage races, so expect him to continue to win. Basically, he is a worse Rojas when he was Movistar's 'sprinter'.

 

[armchairclimber]

I'm hoping that Roson wins after stage 3.

 

[Koronin]

He may very well be a "worse" version of Rojas as a sprinter for the team, but he still has more wins than anyone else on the team, except for Bala, since Bala's injury last summer. That does not bode well for this team long term.

armchairclimber -- I'd like to see that as well. From what I can tell Barbero and Roson are the co-leaders for this race as it is a home races for both of them.

 

[DNP-Old]

Re:

Barbero's ceiling is winning small, spanish races where the competition isn't great and he is damn good at it with his ability to sprint and climb decently well. Gets overmatched in bigger races, but still able to top-10. I think he will race all the upcoming spanish stage races, so expect him to continue to win. Basically, he is a worse Rojas when he was Movistar's 'sprinter'.

Unzue's completely ineptitude (or lack of interest) in signing a sprinter is however strange. Barbero has his qualities, but as soon as any half decent opponent shows up, he is pretty more done for. He is missing out on so many easy victories and perhaps even more.

Sign Xavier Cañellas, develop him a bit and not only do you have someone for the present in smaller races, but you've also got someone in your ranks who can help you on the big stage in the near future. Valverde can only give you so much.

 

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

We have just finished spring classics.. with the great defeat of Movistar... and Sky.
But Sky will get palmares in GT, and Movistar will not.

 

[tobydawq]

Re:

We have just finished spring classics.. with the great defeat of Movistar... and Sky.
But Sky will get palmares in GT, and Movistar will not.

Should I provide you with the links to the Valverde, Landa, Quintana, Sky, Froome, Kwiatkowski, Thomas, Poels, Terpstra, Sagan and Valgren threads so you can inform us a little more about the same thing?

 

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

Re: Re:

We have just finished spring classics.. with the great defeat of Movistar... and Sky.
But Sky will get palmares in GT, and Movistar will not.

Should I provide you with the links to the Valverde, Landa, Quintana, Sky, Froome, Kwiatkowski, Thomas, Poels, Terpstra, Sagan and Valgren threads so you can inform us a little more about the same thing?

OK, why not. Instead - I'm not sure I will be able to inform everybody.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Barbero's ceiling is winning small, spanish races where the competition isn't great and he is damn good at it with his ability to sprint and climb decently well. Gets overmatched in bigger races, but still able to top-10. I think he will race all the upcoming spanish stage races, so expect him to continue to win. Basically, he is a worse Rojas when he was Movistar's 'sprinter'.

Unzue's completely ineptitude (or lack of interest) in signing a sprinter is however strange. Barbero has his qualities, but as soon as any half decent opponent shows up, he is pretty more done for. He is missing out on so many easy victories and perhaps even more.

Sign Xavier Cañellas, develop him a bit and not only do you have someone for the present in smaller races, but you've also got someone in your ranks who can help you on the big stage in the near future. Valverde can only give you so much.

Xavi Cañellas is in Caja Rural's feeder so will be harder for them to pick up until he's been there a year or two as a pro really; they've got too many in the Lizarte system to start pilfering other teams' feeder riders without it causing some friction. Any young development sprinter coming through is likely to come from Lizarte, and by dint of that is likely to be Dmitry Zhyhunou.

The other thing is, which sprinter is liable to choose Movistar and be able to fit in, knowing they'll be foraging alone, and are unlikely to get many protectors, with the rouleurs like Erviti primed to protect the leaders? They've got to be looking at a specific tier of sprinter. They lost Lobato, maybe they could bring him back now he's burnt some bridges, after all Unzué likes working with people he knows about, or move for, say, Juan Sebastián Molano from Manzana?

 

[Koronin]

What a disaster this team has been this week. No support for their team leader at all. With what I've seen so far this year, it will be a shock if this team doesn't implode in the Tour. They've lost way too many good riders over the last two years and have not been able to replace them.

 

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

Please calm down .
And I'm not joking.
From time to time I have the same with Sky.
As I said before, It's only cycling.

 

[DNP-Old]

Re: Re:

Barbero's ceiling is winning small, spanish races where the competition isn't great and he is damn good at it with his ability to sprint and climb decently well. Gets overmatched in bigger races, but still able to top-10. I think he will race all the upcoming spanish stage races, so expect him to continue to win. Basically, he is a worse Rojas when he was Movistar's 'sprinter'.

Unzue's completely ineptitude (or lack of interest) in signing a sprinter is however strange. Barbero has his qualities, but as soon as any half decent opponent shows up, he is pretty more done for. He is missing out on so many easy victories and perhaps even more.

Sign Xavier Cañellas, develop him a bit and not only do you have someone for the present in smaller races, but you've also got someone in your ranks who can help you on the big stage in the near future. Valverde can only give you so much.

Xavi Cañellas is in Caja Rural's feeder so will be harder for them to pick up until he's been there a year or two as a pro really; they've got too many in the Lizarte system to start pilfering other teams' feeder riders without it causing some friction. Any young development sprinter coming through is likely to come from Lizarte, and by dint of that is likely to be Dmitry Zhyhunou.

The other thing is, which sprinter is liable to choose Movistar and be able to fit in, knowing they'll be foraging alone, and are unlikely to get many protectors, with the rouleurs like Erviti primed to protect the leaders? They've got to be looking at a specific tier of sprinter. They lost Lobato, maybe they could bring him back now he's burnt some bridges, after all Unzué likes working with people he knows about, or move for, say, Juan Sebastián Molano from Manzana?

Agreed on most points, but if I were in Eusebio's shoes, I would really go all in for Cañellas. No matter what it takes. Really high on him. He let Kwiatkowski go, albeit for different and understandable reasons, he can't let Cañellas go as well. The earlier you're on to him, the better.

Molano could be an option, the positive, so to say, is that he is used to having little to no help. If Soto continues to develop and grows more accustomed to European cycling, I wouldn't mind him either. Since he's from Caja, chances are he's already somewhere on Unzue's list as we speak.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

What a disaster this team has been this week. No support for their team leader at all. With what I've seen so far this year, it will be a shock if this team doesn't implode in the Tour. They've lost way too many good riders over the last two years and have not been able to replace them.

I think the change to seven man teams have had more of an impact this week than the personnel involved. Having someone like Castroviejo or Herrada instead of Betancur or Rojas wouldn't have made much difference. Having one of those riders as well as the team they had now could have been a game changer - at least at Fleche.

It is also what could work in Movistar's favour at the Tour. With reduced numbers the quality of each rider matters even more. And one Landa is worth a lot more than a Catroviejo or a Herrada. Their squad may be weaker overall, but their best eight riders, are better than their best eight riders from last year.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

What a disaster this team has been this week. No support for their team leader at all. With what I've seen so far this year, it will be a shock if this team doesn't implode in the Tour. They've lost way too many good riders over the last two years and have not been able to replace them.

I think the change to seven man teams have had more of an impact this week than the personnel involved. Having someone like Castroviejo or Herrada instead of Betancur or Rojas wouldn't have made much difference. Having one of those riders as well as the team they had now could have been a game changer - at least at Fleche.

It is also what could work in Movistar's favour at the Tour. With reduced numbers the quality of each rider matters even more. And one Landa is worth a lot more than a Catroviejo or a Herrada. Their squad may be weaker overall, but their best eight riders, are better than their best eight riders from last year.

At Fleche the change to 7 may have had a large effect. However not as much at Liege. It just proves they aren't a very strong team. One of the reasons is that Alejandro is only one of several favorites and not the prohibitive favorite he is at Fleche.

Except this doesn't do them any good in the TTT or the cobbled stage. I expcet them to loose at least a minute and a half if not more at this point in the TTT. I also expect Landa and Quintana to give up at least another 45 seconds to a minute to several of the GC guys on the cobbled stage. Oh and let's not forget if there are any real crosswinds. This team has always lost time in crosswinds. This doesn't even count the ITTs later in the Tour. So going into week 2 Landa and Quintana could both be down well over 2 minutes.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

What a disaster this team has been this week. No support for their team leader at all. With what I've seen so far this year, it will be a shock if this team doesn't implode in the Tour. They've lost way too many good riders over the last two years and have not been able to replace them.

I think the change to seven man teams have had more of an impact this week than the personnel involved. Having someone like Castroviejo or Herrada instead of Betancur or Rojas wouldn't have made much difference. Having one of those riders as well as the team they had now could have been a game changer - at least at Fleche.

It is also what could work in Movistar's favour at the Tour. With reduced numbers the quality of each rider matters even more. And one Landa is worth a lot more than a Catroviejo or a Herrada. Their squad may be weaker overall, but their best eight riders, are better than their best eight riders from last year.

Except this doesn't do them any good in the TTT or the cobbled stage. I expcet them to loose at least a minute and a half if not more at this point in the TTT. I also expect Landa and Quintana to give up at least another 45 seconds to a minute to several of the GC guys on the cobbled stage. Oh and let's not forget if there are any real crosswinds. This team has always lost time in crosswinds. This doesn't even count the ITTs later in the Tour. So going into week 2 Landa and Quintana could both be down well over 2 minutes.

There's a lot of supposition there. They still have good rouleurs; Sutterlin, Amador, Olveira Bennatti, Valverde, Erviti and Rojas are strong enough to keep the leaders in contention. And then Landa and Quintana can shine in the high mountains.

The eight man teams will again make a big difference here. Every team is going to have to make a decision about whether they choose to be a man down on the flat or in the mountainous. In having three incredibly strong and reliable climbers, Movistar could even afford to pick five rouleurs to fill their team. A luxury that other teams won't be able to do, without leaving themselves seriously weak in the mountains.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

What a disaster this team has been this week. No support for their team leader at all. With what I've seen so far this year, it will be a shock if this team doesn't implode in the Tour. They've lost way too many good riders over the last two years and have not been able to replace them.

I think the change to seven man teams have had more of an impact this week than the personnel involved. Having someone like Castroviejo or Herrada instead of Betancur or Rojas wouldn't have made much difference. Having one of those riders as well as the team they had now could have been a game changer - at least at Fleche.

It is also what could work in Movistar's favour at the Tour. With reduced numbers the quality of each rider matters even more. And one Landa is worth a lot more than a Catroviejo or a Herrada. Their squad may be weaker overall, but their best eight riders, are better than their best eight riders from last year.

Except this doesn't do them any good in the TTT or the cobbled stage. I expcet them to loose at least a minute and a half if not more at this point in the TTT. I also expect Landa and Quintana to give up at least another 45 seconds to a minute to several of the GC guys on the cobbled stage. Oh and let's not forget if there are any real crosswinds. This team has always lost time in crosswinds. This doesn't even count the ITTs later in the Tour. So going into week 2 Landa and Quintana could both be down well over 2 minutes.

There's a lot of supposition there. They still have good rouleurs; Sutterlin, Amador, Olveira Bennatti, Valverde, Erviti and Rojas are strong enough to keep the leaders in contention. And then Landa and Quintana can shine in the high mountains.

The eight man teams will again make a big difference here. Every team is going to have to make a decision about whether they choose to be a man down on the flat or in the mountainous. In having three incredibly strong and reliable climbers, Movistar could even afford to pick five rouleurs to fill their team. A luxury that other teams won't be able to do, without leaving themselves seriously weak in the mountains.

They could have a couple of issues. First being that it is highly likely Valverde could be in a much better GC spot after the cobbles than Landa or Quintana. Also remember he will never go into the red riding for himself or in support of another rider. He just flat out what do that. So it's likely they do need one more mountain domestique.
Amador and Soler should be headed off to the Giro as co race leaders and I'd rather then not take them to the Tour. Also Soler will be headed to the Duaphine after the Giro.

One other note: Valverde said he started cramping badly about halfway through today's race. This does not explain his totally giving up on the race and not sprinting (he finished 4th at Lombardia a couple years ago after cramping right from the start of the race).

 

[EroicaStradeBianche]

I rate Sky's spring much worse than Movi's one. Sky has 50% bigger budget, a ton of competitive riders on the cobbles also, and they achieved an 8th place with Moscon in Harelbeke and a 9th today with Henao, invisibles in all the spring classics.
Movistar was all about this week and Valverde; it didn't work. End of the story.
I won't be so sure that Sky will be better in GT...

 

[Bot. Sky_Bot]

We have two the same disasters. One with Movistar's performance other with Sky..........

 

[Koronin]

Re:

We have two the same disasters. One with Movistar's performance other with Sky..........

I agree with this. Movistar I know what the problem is. They have no support and even after last summer almost career ending injury to Alejandro they are still overly dependent on him. As for Sky, I truly don't know what their problem is this year although they have had some bad luck, but that's not all of it.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Sure Sky's problems are easy enough to think about; quite simply, the management has a few other things on their plate with investigations and the ongoing Froome case, and they might be playing on their minds tactically; there are a lot of people who may project the front of a united team but who all ideally want to be the one to profit if Froome is going to be suspended for any period of time, and want to make a play for their own aims, while the leader himself is keeping a comparatively low profile, as well as there being a touch of the unknown and uncertainty about the calendar as he's never targeted the Giro before, at least not since becoming the Froome we know now (of course he rode in 2009 and 2010 but not as a leader)...

Movistar's problem is that they're very top heavy and some of the people at the top aren't all that reliable and all of their goals overlap because they're mostly similar riders. Sky's problem is like that in a dictatorship where the leader is sick and ailing, and everybody is trying to help him while simultaneously trying to advance their own position so that they can assume that role should the worst happen.

 

[Squire]

Re:

Sky's problem is like that in a dictatorship where the leader is sick and ailing, and everybody is trying to help him while simultaneously trying to advance their own position so that they can assume that role should the worst happen.

That's a very good comparison. The situation feels a bit like Stalin's death bed. Hopefully, for the sake of my CQ team, Thomas doesn't end up like Beria.