Teams & Riders Team Movistar-thread

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Now you're disliking an entire country?

Just the Spanish cycling culture.

So, how do you decide which Spanish riders aren't part of this mysterious "Spanish cycling culture"? I pressume Contador isn't (wasn't) part of it...

Only Flecha wasn't part of it.

Spanish cycling culture = too much focus on stage races, poorly organized races and too lax when it comes to doping.

Belgian cycling culture = too much focus on one-day races.

Italian cycling culture = used to be an ideal mix of the two, but is now sadly in decline.

Contador is forgiven because he attacks from far out and made races interesting to watch. His poor results in the classics is the only negative I can think of.

Nibali obviously is the ideal cyclist, because he excels at both the classics and Grand Tours. And not just the classics that suit him, but ALL of them. Hope he rides Roubaix at least once in his career too, he did very well on the cobbles in the Tour of 2014.

So how about Purito? He worked hard at both the classics and the GTs and was good at both, albeit benefiting from some very skewed parcours in the GTs at the time. His best career wins were in one-day races. What about Freire? He used to be a sprinter, sure, but he went great guns in the Classics, even ones that didn't suit him at all, like Flèche. And he tried to win Amstel Gold with a solo from a decent distance out.

If Contador is forgiven for the reasons you give, presumably Heras and Jiménez should be too?

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

Now you're disliking an entire country?

Just the Spanish cycling culture.

So, how do you decide which Spanish riders aren't part of this mysterious "Spanish cycling culture"? I pressume Contador isn't (wasn't) part of it...

Only Flecha wasn't part of it.

Spanish cycling culture = too much focus on stage races, poorly organized races and too lax when it comes to doping.

Belgian cycling culture = too much focus on one-day races.

Italian cycling culture = used to be an ideal mix of the two, but is now sadly in decline.

Contador is forgiven because he attacks from far out and made races interesting to watch. His poor results in the classics is the only negative I can think of.

Nibali obviously is the ideal cyclist, because he excels at both the classics and Grand Tours. And not just the classics that suit him, but ALL of them. Hope he rides Roubaix at least once in his career too, he did very well on the cobbles in the Tour of 2014.

So how about Purito? He worked hard at both the classics and the GTs and was good at both, albeit benefiting from some very skewed parcours in the GTs at the time. His best career wins were in one-day races. What about Freire? He used to be a sprinter, sure, but he went great guns in the Classics, even ones that didn't suit him at all, like Flèche. And he tried to win Amstel Gold with a solo from a decent distance out.

If Contador is forgiven for the reasons you give, presumably Heras and Jiménez should be too?

Purito I didn't like because he didn't have the balls to attack from far out... Always waiting till the final km... Lost a Giro that way.

Freire was often invisible during races and then won in a sprint... not much of a fan either I'm afraid, although there are some hilarious anecdotes about him going around. And I was rooting for him to win AGR in 2012, for what it's worth.

Didn't watch cycling when Heras and Jimenez were active.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You also point out your criticism of Belgian cycling culture that there's too much focus on one day races (and thus presumably not enough on stage races) above, yet you also specified Jürgen van den Broeck, one of the few Belgian riders in recent years to redress the balance, as a Belgian rider you would refuse to support. It rather makes it seem rather a disingenuous claim, as apparently Belgian cycling culture needs to develop more riders capable of contending in stage races, but woe betide them if they actually try to do so...

You know full well that day in day out long range attacks in stage races are much harder to achieve because of cumulative fatigue being a major point. Even those riders that you defend for their chutzpah in attacking from distance will typically tend to isolate a small number of stages in order to do this (simultaneously, however, you deride Quintana as a wheelsucker, when most of his best GT performances have been predicated on a similar strategy).

Plus, also, of course, attacking from distance is normally not a stylistic choice but because that's the only way for that rider to succeed. The less strong your support team or your sprint weapon, the more likely you are to make those attacks, because you don't want to come to the line with better sprinters or find yourself outnumbered. Quoth Kasia Niewiadoma, "it can never happen that I will win from a group, the way to win is always by attacking". Emma Pooley never in her career won a race from a group of more than 2 - only 2 were not solo, in fact, and both of those wins were deals "you get stage, I get jersey". For some riders, though, they can win from a group. That doesn't stop them being versatile riders or having the capability of winning with an epic solo, it just means they have other weapons in their arsenal too. After all, even Valverde, the quintessential "wait for the sprint" hilly one-day racer, won a race solo today, and has a history of putting on performances like that in smaller races, then being more conservative in the bigger ones. But he has that weapon in his locker if he needs it. Sagan can win races solo or from small groups, and when he hasn't got the legs he tells everybody the show is more important than the win, but when he really needs a win and the best chance of getting that is to have a really boring race and then sprint, he'll have a really boring race and wait for the sprint.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re:

You also point out your criticism of Belgian cycling culture that there's too much focus on one day races (and thus presumably not enough on stage races) above, yet you also specified Jürgen van den Broeck, one of the few Belgian riders in recent years to redress the balance, as a Belgian rider you would refuse to support. It rather makes it seem rather a disingenuous claim, as apparently Belgian cycling culture needs to develop more riders capable of contending in stage races, but woe betide them if they actually try to do so...

You know full well that day in day out long range attacks in stage races are much harder to achieve because of cumulative fatigue being a major point. Even those riders that you defend for their chutzpah in attacking from distance will typically tend to isolate a small number of stages in order to do this (simultaneously, however, you deride Quintana as a wheelsucker, when most of his best GT performances have been predicated on a similar strategy).

Plus, also, of course, attacking from distance is normally not a stylistic choice but because that's the only way for that rider to succeed. The less strong your support team or your sprint weapon, the more likely you are to make those attacks, because you don't want to come to the line with better sprinters or find yourself outnumbered. Quoth Kasia Niewiadoma, "it can never happen that I will win from a group, the way to win is always by attacking". Emma Pooley never in her career won a race from a group of more than 2 - only 2 were not solo, in fact, and both of those wins were deals "you get stage, I get jersey". For some riders, though, they can win from a group. That doesn't stop them being versatile riders or having the capability of winning with an epic solo, it just means they have other weapons in their arsenal too. After all, even Valverde, the quintessential "wait for the sprint" hilly one-day racer, won a race solo today, and has a history of putting on performances like that in smaller races, then being more conservative in the bigger ones. But he has that weapon in his locker if he needs it. Sagan can win races solo or from small groups, and when he hasn't got the legs he tells everybody the show is more important than the win, but when he really needs a win and the best chance of getting that is to have a really boring race and then sprint, he'll have a really boring race and wait for the sprint.

Following wheels and never attacking is not the kind of stage racer I will ever support. He was also invisible outside the Tour. Thomas de Gendt's third place in the Giro is still by far the best result of a Belgian in a GT this century.

There are also plenty of examples of cyclists with strong sprints that are still not afraid to attack from a long way out... That's how Boonen won his first Monument in fact... Or Sagan... Heck, even Kristoff rode a pretty aggressive race when he won the Ronde. Bettini also went on the attack frequently, despite having a strong sprint.

Winning in a sprint is not automatically bad either... Van Avermaet won Roubaix in a sprint after doing most of the work in the front group because Stybar was being a wheel-sucker.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yes, some riders who can sprint have attacked to win to take matters into their own hands when they weren't sure they could win the sprint in a group. Yes Valverde has his sprint and waits in the big races but why wouldn't he? The last editions he dominated because other racers allowed him to sprint compared to the cobbles when it is more random. Why would he attack in those races if he doesn't have to. He put himself in the position to win using his skills and finished it with his sprint.

Every rider has their own skill set that they use to the best of their ability to win.

Yes Valverde isn't racing Flanders and nibali is. But Valverde has raced more this month and total this year than nibali. He is also going for the win in all the hilly classics and is trying to perform at a high level at more races at the end of the year than nibali. Yes Flanders is only one day but it isn't a easy day in the saddle at all if you're trying to win.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re:

Yes, some riders who can sprint have attacked to win to take matters into their own hands when they weren't sure they could win the sprint in a group. Yes Valverde has his sprint and waits in the big races but why wouldn't he? The last editions he dominated because other racers allowed him to sprint compared to the cobbles when it is more random. Why would he attack in those races if he doesn't have to. He put himself in the position to win using his skills and finished it with his sprint.

Every rider has their own skill set that they use to the best of their ability to win.

Yes Valverde isn't racing Flanders and nibali is. But Valverde has raced more this month and total this year than nibali. He is also going for the win in all the hilly classics and is trying to perform at a high level at more races at the end of the year than nibali. Yes Flanders is only one day but it isn't a easy day in the saddle at all if you're trying to win.

Nibali is going for the win in all the ardennes classics as well, also the Tour, the WC and Lombardia.

Not all that different from Valverde. And Valverde doesn't have more race days either.

Valverde has also lost many races because he waited for his sprint (Lombardia 2014 is a good example of that).

 

[Koronin]

Valverde prefers to rely on his sprint because he has a sprint that no other good climb can come that close to. Why shouldn't he rely on it? For him it's the preferred way to win a race.

As for more race days or not, the bigger difference is Valverde is always near the front of the race always in the mix, Nibali is not. Nibali is a much more inconsistent rider and that's a huge difference.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Re: Re:

Yes, some riders who can sprint have attacked to win to take matters into their own hands when they weren't sure they could win the sprint in a group. Yes Valverde has his sprint and waits in the big races but why wouldn't he? The last editions he dominated because other racers allowed him to sprint compared to the cobbles when it is more random. Why would he attack in those races if he doesn't have to. He put himself in the position to win using his skills and finished it with his sprint.

Every rider has their own skill set that they use to the best of their ability to win.

Yes Valverde isn't racing Flanders and nibali is. But Valverde has raced more this month and total this year than nibali. He is also going for the win in all the hilly classics and is trying to perform at a high level at more races at the end of the year than nibali. Yes Flanders is only one day but it isn't a easy day in the saddle at all if you're trying to win.

Nibali is going for the win in all the ardennes classics as well, also the Tour, the WC and Lombardia.

Not all that different from Valverde. And Valverde doesn't have more race days either.

Valverde has also lost many races because he waited for his sprint (Lombardia 2014 is a good example of that).

Valverde has 3 more race days than nibali on the year and 1 for March. Nibali isn't racing FW and yes it still counts as a race. Valverde is also going for the triple, performing in the tour and winning CSS, Vuelta, and GdL.

Yes he has lost races waiting but that is hindsight in our favor. We could pick apart what could and could not happen. He played to his strength and it bit him in the butt.

Both are great riders but it's ridiculous to call any rider bad or try and undermine their achievements when they don't attack even though it looks better to the fans.
If anything nibali has over achieved and Valverde has under achieved on their talents.

 

[RedheadDane]

Why not just let every cyclist excel at what he (or she) is best at? You don't have to be good at everything to be a good bike rider.
And a race doesn't have to include a race from far out to be interesting.

How would they know if they never try something different?

1: Unless you're one of those - rather few - multitalents who can excel at everything, then you have to decide on your focus at some point. Better to be great at one - or two - thing(s), than to be okayish at five things.

B: Let me get this straight: Riders should be able to do everything, as long as "everything" always involved attacking from far out? Riders aren't allowed to limit themselves to a few things they know they'll be at least able to contend for the win in, yet you're limiting yourself to what kind of racing you'll enjoy?

 

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

[quote="RedheadDane"]Why not just let every cyclist excel at what he (or she) is best at? You don't have to be good at everything to be a good bike rider.
And a race doesn't have to include a race from far out to be interesting.

How would they know if they never try something different?[/quote]
Maybe they did try, and they found out they weren't very good at it. You don't have to hurl yourself up the muur, or follow the sky train deep into the mountains in full view of the world to find out it doesn't suit your talents. You can suck in private in training first.
Michael Phelps never swan the 1500!

 

[Asero831]

Bad luck for the team, Oliveira with a broken collarbone

 

[tobydawq]

Re:

Bad luck for the team, Oliveira with a broken collarbone

I wouldn't consider that unlucky if that is the only injury he sustained from that crash. It looked horrible.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Bad luck for the team, Oliveira with a broken collarbone

I wouldn't consider that unlucky if that is the only injury he sustained from that crash. It looked horrible.

According to the team that is the extent of the injury. I'm guessing he was supposed to be racing in May, although no idea if it was the Giro or one of the smaller races they are going to.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Well, Movistar really hasn't been affected by crashes, sickness etc. like pretty much all other teams have been. Landa, Quintana, Soler and Valverde have been able to prepare optimally and has gotten more or less the maximum out of all the races they have started. Great results all around, only with Pais Vasco as a disappointment considering how strong they were in that race.

I look forward to how Landa and Betancur will be able to support Valverde in the Ardennes. I suspect pretty good. And how about Soler, the guy has a serious motor for pretty much all races.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

Well, Movistar really hasn't been affected by crashes, sickness etc. like pretty much all other teams have been. Landa, Quintana, Soler and Valverde have been able to prepare optimally and has gotten more or less the maximum out of all the races they have started. Great results all around, only with Pais Vasco as a disappointment considering how strong they were in that race.

I look forward to how Landa and Betancur will be able to support Valverde in the Ardennes. I suspect pretty good. And how about Soler, the guy has a serious motor for pretty much all races.

I think Soler won't be there. Bala, Landa, Betancur, Amador, Rojas and Erviti are certain imo. That leaves only one spot, and I would bring a strong roleur or all-rounder rather than Soler. There's plenty of time for him, we need to win those right now

 

[Koronin]

Oliveira broken collarbone and Sutterlin is sick, and Fernandez has been off most of the year with a stress fracture, otherwise the team seems to be in good health. Unlikely those two (injury and illness) have any effect at all on who they are sending to the Ardennes.

That 7th spot could go to a bunch of different riders depending on what they are choosing: Barbero (at Amstel) might make sense though. I wouldn't take him to the other two. Not sure how recovered Fernandez is from injury yet. Soler, Roson, De la Parte, and a bunch of others would be in the running for that 7th place on the Ardennes team.

 

[Valv.Piti]

All the guys are doing a reckon of stage 9 on the cobbles, thats Quintana, Valverde and Landa with some domestiques. Soler apparently stayed in Roubaix, that guy gets to ride some cobbles these days.

 

[Red Rick]

 

[Valv.Piti]

I don't think its a coincidence Valverde is in the middle. Guy is just a boss.

 

[Koronin]

Apparently several of the guys who just raced Roubaix stuck around for today's recon/training ride.

Good picture. I agree with Valv.Piti that it's not coincidence that Valverde is in the middle. He's still the team leader and highly respected rider on that team.

 

[hrotha]

Someone please ban Unzue already
https://elpais.com/deportes/2018/04/10/actualidad/1523379860_131322.html

 

[Koronin]

He always complains when they add cobbles to the Tour. Maybe we can convince the media to ignore Unzue when he complains about the cobbles?

 

[tobydawq]

He's probably what is holding Valverde back from riding Flanders.

A ban is in order indeed.

 

[Koronin]

That wouldn't shock me. He's afraid of letting his guys ride the cobbles. Maybe a ban is in order. How about let us run the team for a year?

 

[tobydawq]

I don't think Quintana or Landa will be happy with the role I intend to give them in the Tour