Team Sky. The all clean team!

[pmcg76]

And the trouble is garmin get the same flack.. JV came on here and immediately got hit by a torrent of doping threads and ******ed off again.

garmin and their independant testing? yet in the same thread everyone is discussing what brads program was for the tour. .

We gonne go round in circles.. guilty till proved innocent is cyclings motto.

So bro.. what is your dream for cycling, where would you like to see it go?

Thats my issue, this attitude that people take. Dim or myself are not some dumbass fanboys who believe in myths and that people dont dope. I just dont like this attitude that everybody is guilty until proven innocent. Maybe Sky & Garmin are doping but until there is a shred of evidence other than a rider doing well, I will hold of on hammering them or criticising them.

I asked BroDeal if the French dope and he says they do but he provides no evidence to back this up. We always ask the trolls to provide their links and evidence to back thier idiotic statements so it works both ways. He says they are not on big programmes but then seems incapable of detailing what products they are taking and how they have evaded the testers, the police, Everybody for the last 10 years. This is not Lance innocent level, this is absolutely no proof level. But they are definitely doping. 100%.

 

[pmcg76]

Moncoutie! of course. It was pretty cool to see him in the Vuelta. Too bad he is so hot and cold. I think that the fact that Moncoutie and riders like LeMevel can do well is a very good sign. To be clear, winning a sprint or Rolluer stage is not a sign of dope....riding Contador off your wheel up a climb is.

As for blood doping. I can only think of two riders who were suspended for using their own blood, Basso and Scarponi. There is a good reason why you seldom hear French names associated with Blood doping rings. The FFC has been running their version of the biopassport since 1999. All of the French riders have had Bio markers on file since they were 17.....of course this does not stop some from changing their Fed to avoid this level of testing,.

Well basically we are on the same page so my apologies for including you in with the 'hes a pro so he dopes' crew.

 

[BroDeal]

I asked BroDeal if the French dope and he says they do but he provides no evidence to back this up. We always ask the trolls to provide their links and evidence to back thier idiotic statements so it works both ways. He says they are not on big programmes but then seems incapable of detailing what products they are taking and how they have evaded the testers, the police, Everybody for the last 10 years. This is not Lance innocent level, this is absolutely no proof level. But they are definitely doping. 100%.

I did? Where?? I have never said all the French are doping. I generally think most riders on french teams are pretty clean.

You seem to be incredibly thick. I don't know whether it is intentional or just an inherent lack of ability to absorb information. People have pointed out to you time and time again that there is no test for autologous blood doping. I'll repeat it. THERE IS NO TEST FOR USING YOUR OWN BLOOD. That will get an athlete the most benefit of any other doping product or technique. A rider could be completely clean except for using a few units of blood during a GT, and he would probably do pretty well compared to being on a complete program. Then there are basic doping products that are undectable, like insulin, HGH, (up until this year) ACTH, etc. Until recently, riders could use testosterone with minimum risk of getting caught; they just needed to make sure their T:TE ratio did not get too high. EPO can still be microdosed. During at least the early to mid 00s, masking agents were being used in urine samples to destroy all EPO, synthetic and natural. It goes on and on.

 

[Race Radio]

I have spent a large amount of time in France, riding, racing, and eating. There is much more opportunity for a clean rider to succeed but there is still doping.

Aurélien Duval got popped early this year, everyone knew Clément Lhotellerie was on the hot sauce but it still took a while to catch him. He was one of those guys winning KOM's. A buddy of mine coaches a group of juniors in France and they all know what is up and it makes them all angry/jealous when they race in other countries. He is sure that despite whatever guidance he may give some will choose an alternative path. I would assume this struggle is repeated at clubs throughout the country. It is hard not to question how VC La Pomme turns out climber after climber....including Lhotellerie.

 

[Galic Ho]

Why not?

And what about my question about the lack of French teams having doping related controversies?

I'm pretty sure you could ask Wiggins about that one. He was on a French team that was booted mid Tour. Had a typical whinge about it and then contradicted himself a year down the track. I do wonder how one can go from next to useless as a GC rider and then presto chango, I can climb? He's lucky he was on Garmin when it happened. Any other team and the screaming would have been deafening.

 

[BroDeal]

I'm pretty sure you could ask Wiggins about that one. He was on a French team that was booted mid Tour. Had a typical whinge about it and then contradicted himself a year down the track. I do wonder how one can go from next to useless as a GC rider and then presto chango, I can climb?

What do you mean next to useless? He was getting dropped from the laughing group on climbs. We may have found a transformation even more miraculous than Armstrong's.

Those rice cakes must be powerful stuff.

 

[Galic Ho]

Moncoutie, KOM 2008 Vuelta, winner Sierre Nevada stage this year.

Casar and LeMevel have both finished top 15 and guys like Voeckler, Fedrigo have won stages at the Tour, yes I know thats not right at the top level but my point was that according to some people, these people are not possible without being totally doped to the gills.

Yes blood doping, but no riders have ever been busted for any doping rings, how many other guys been caught or associated with blood doping this decade. A lot of the top guys have been caught. Find me a team that have not had a rider busted or associtaed with a doping ring and see what teams are left. Bogues & lfdjeux.

Bold. You need to listen properly then. That is possible clean. Anyone who thinks otherwise has their head screwed on incorrectly. Why does it work? A win one or two times a tour in a breakaway? Quite possible clean. Try backing up and going for GC after doing that. Everyone who has, history has shown, doped or was suspected of doping. Do you have any common sense today, or is this just a one off trip to loonieville?

 

[Galic Ho]

What do you mean next to useless? He was getting dropped from the laughing group on climbs. We may have found a transformation even more miraculous than Armstrong's.

Those rice cakes must be powerful stuff.

Dude I was the one pointing this out over the last few months. 2006 the groupetto dropped Wiggins. That is Cavendish territory. Since there are some very patriotic Brits here I was trying to tone down my classification on Wiggins pre 2009 TdF, grand tour performances. Was it you who listed his places the other day on another thread? They read like Riis before 1994. No, they were worse. Don't forget the gluten free diet those rice cakes come from. What is Alan Lim prescribing at Garmin?

 

[BroDeal]

Dude I was the one pointing this out over the last few months. 2006 the groupetto dropped Wiggins. That is Cavendish territory. Since there are some very patriotic Brits here I was trying to tone down my classification on Wiggins pre 2009 TdF, grand tour performances. Was it you who listed his places the other day on another thread? They read like Riis before 1994. No, they were worse. Don't forget the gluten free diet those rice cakes come from. What is Alan Lim prescribing at Garmin?

Wiggins transformation is like Ivan Quaranta suddenly winning the Classique des Alps.

Lim is missing a serious opportunity. There is no way he should be working for the man when he could make a bundle selling magic rice cakes. Screw FRS. Rice cakes are proven technology.

 

[53 x 11]

Wiggins transformation is like Ivan Quaranta suddenly winning the Classique des Alps.

Lim is missing a serious opportunity. There is no way he should be working for the man when he could make a bundle selling magic rice cakes. Screw FRS. Rice cakes are proven technology.

I thought It was cos he lost a lot of weight and learned to spin

 

[Galic Ho]

Wiggins transformation is like Ivan Quaranta suddenly winning the Classique des Alps.

Lim is missing a serious opportunity. There is no way he should be working for the man when he could make a bundle selling magic rice cakes. Screw FRS. Rice cakes are proven technology.

He could even get Landis to pedal out and market them. I'm sure Floyd will appreciate his old bud helping him out. They'll sell like hot cakes...no rice cakes.

 

[Anonymous]

Wiggins transformation is like Ivan Quaranta suddenly winning the Classique des Alps.

Lim is missing a serious opportunity. There is no way he should be working for the man when he could make a bundle selling magic rice cakes. Screw FRS. Rice cakes are proven technology.

yes, but of course you guys do know that 2009 was brads first serious attempt at a road season (2006 really cant be counted it was that bad), the rest of the years he was a track rider.. 7kgs of lost weigh, training etc etc..

Now i am sure you will all pass of all the gains he made down to PED's and continue do compare 2009 Brad, the 100% road rider, with 2008 Brad the 20% road focused rider, or 2007 Brad, the 30% road rider, so theres no real point in trying to argue with you is there..

 

[pmcg76]

Bold. You need to listen properly then. That is possible clean. Anyone who thinks otherwise has their head screwed on incorrectly. Why does it work? A win one or two times a tour in a breakaway? Quite possible clean. Try backing up and going for GC after doing that. Everyone who has, history has shown, doped or was suspected of doping. Do you have any common sense today, or is this just a one off trip to loonieville?

This thread is based around Sky having a doping programme yet the team have not even started racing yet. I find this very unfair and cynical, yes Wiggins does raise a lot of suspicicon in me but to criticise a whole team before they even start is just wrong.

I was trying to make the point that if the Fench teams can win stages at the Tour and place riders in the Top 10, they do not go around shouting about all the anti-doping measures they do either. Why should Sky be any different.

Is it essential for Sky to have this big doping programme that some people keep insinuating they will have. They have good riders with mostly untarnished reputations who have achieved good results so why would they go down the doping path. I was trying to make the comparison with the French because I believe overall they are relatively clean also.

Then Blackcat made this point

the French dope. They just dont have big programs. And the ASO will not want another '98

I know what all the doping products are and how they are undetectable but if somebody says the above, I want them to explain what products are being used and how the French teams have never been linked with any episodes like Puerto, Feiburg clinic, Vienna clinic or had any riders caught for CERA or EPO. Considering the amount of teams/riders that have been linked with doping rings or busted in the last 10 years, it has to be something more than luck that the French have avoided trouble over the last decade. It now seems that quite a few people agree that the French are generally clean and its the exception like Blackcat who claim otherwise.

I know Sky have set the aim of winning the Tour within 5 years but I always felt that was just PR BS to interest the British media and general public that have seen Britains track success and follow the hype. If they honsestly want to do this, then maybe they will have to go down the doping route and Wiggins is the one person raising suspicion but there is no actual uncontestable proof yet.

This is the first time Britain have had a BIG cycling team so its natural that the Brits are excited. Its been over 20 years since ANC/Halfords luckily competed in the Tour and they were not a team focused on Euro races. Dimspace is being made out to be gullible and stupid but I would think everyone would know he isnt based on previous posts. He is just having a hard time understanding the negativity surrounding Sky before they have done a thing.

If people want to be negative about a new team who do have dodgy associations and past, lets go and hammer RadioShack or BMC instead of slating Sky. To think I am not even a Sky fan, I actually like Cervelo but have rarely heard anything thrown at them on this forum despite their stellar performances and host of improvers last season.

 

[bianchigirl]

French teams don't have to shout about their anti doping programmes because all French riders undergo year round longitudinal testing conducted by the FFC.

Funnily enough, the year this was introduced was the year Armstrong decided he just had to move across the border to Girona...

 

[pmcg76]

I did? Where?? I have never said all the French are doping. I generally think most riders on french teams are pretty clean.

You seem to be incredibly thick. I don't know whether it is intentional or just an inherent lack of ability to absorb information. People have pointed out to you time and time again that there is no test for autologous blood doping. I'll repeat it. THERE IS NO TEST FOR USING YOUR OWN BLOOD. That will get an athlete the most benefit of any other doping product or technique. A rider could be completely clean except for using a few units of blood during a GT, and he would probably do pretty well compared to being on a complete program. Then there are basic doping products that are undectable, like insulin, HGH, (up until this year) ACTH, etc. Until recently, riders could use testosterone with minimum risk of getting caught; they just needed to make sure their T:TE ratio did not get too high. EPO can still be microdosed. During at least the early to mid 00s, masking agents were being used in urine samples to destroy all EPO, synthetic and natural. It goes on and on.

Ok, I mixed you up with Blackcat about the French doping. Honest mistake. No need for the insults really. I know what all the doping products but you are actually the first person to explain the difference between a small or big programme. I just wanted Blackcat to explain what the French were doing considering they are blood profiled from an early age.

 

[Race Radio]

Think back to 2008.

who did not watch the performances of these guys

Riccardo Riccò
Emanuele Sella
Leonardo Piepoli
Stefan Schumacher
Bernhard Kohl

And not say that it screamed "Doper"? Nobody was surprised when they, or Di Lucca, tested positive. When was the last time we saw anything like this from a French rider in a French race? Maybe Remy Di Grégorio in the DL two years ago is the only thing I can think of.

 

[Galic Ho]

This thread is based around Sky having a doping programme yet the team have not even started racing yet. I find this very unfair and cynical, yes Wiggins does raise a lot of suspicicon in me but to criticise a whole team before they even start is just wrong.

I was trying to make the point that if the Fench teams can win stages at the Tour and place riders in the Top 10, they do not go around shouting about all the anti-doping measures they do either. Why should Sky be any different.

Is it essential for Sky to have this big doping programme that some people keep insinuating they will have. They have good riders with mostly untarnished reputations who have achieved good results so why would they go down the doping path. I was trying to make the comparison with the French because I believe overall they are relatively clean also.

Fair enough point. Maybe we are being a bit cynical, but I've only questioned Brailsford and Wiggins. Primarily because of their comments, which have been firing on a weekly basis the last three months.

I am not asking Sky to shout out about their anti-doping measures. My issue is with the language Brailsford and Wiggins have used. There are massive inconsistencies in some of the comments, their actions (past and present), stated objectives (Brit winning Tour by 2014) and their quoted methods and support system to achieve these objectives. To make it simple, the are telling what appear to be half-truths. Half truths we've all seen and heard before. Brailsford is smart enough to change his dialogue enough to seem different, but I doubt he is any different to Bruyneel or Riis. Of course I will wait and see how the team performs and note any subtle changes in oral expression given by the DS. But the original article quoted in the first post really annoyed me when I read it. It solidified what I'd previously heard from Brailsford and the cumulative taste was not sweet.

Then Blackcat made this point

the French dope. They just dont have big programs. And the ASO will not want another '98

I know what all the doping products are and how they are undetectable but if somebody says the above, I want them to explain what products are being used and how the French teams have never been linked with any episodes like Puerto, Feiburg clinic, Vienna clinic or had any riders caught for CERA or EPO. Considering the amount of teams/riders that have been linked with doping rings or busted in the last 10 years, it has to be something more than luck that the French have avoided trouble over the last decade. It now seems that quite a few people agree that the French are generally clean and its the exception like Blackcat who claim otherwise.

I think you want the "why" instead of the "how". I think the answer can be found in top notch French riders. They're soccer players are quality. So to the tennis players. But all of a sudden the French have no legit GC contenders in grand tours? Coincidence? No. Blackcat's point is most likely accurate. The French frown upon doping, in cycling and are far more rigorous and methodical in their testing and monitoring of riders. 1998 was the best French team caught with their pants down mooning the entire nation. The reason the French aren't being caught is because for the most part they are clean or are not breaking the allowable parameters (another debate for another day).

Fair enough point. Maybe we are being a bit cynical, but I've only questioned Brailsford and Wiggins. Primarily because of their comments, which have been firing on a weekly basis the last three months.Fair enough point. Maybe we are being a bit cynical, but I've only questioned Brailsford and Wiggins. Primarily because of their comments, which have been firing on a weekly basis the last three months.

I know Sky have set the aim of winning the Tour within 5 years but I always felt that was just PR BS to interest the British media and general public that have seen Britains track success and follow the hype. If they honsestly want to do this, then maybe they will have to go down the doping route and Wiggins is the one person raising suspicion but there is no actual uncontestable proof yet.

This is the first time Britain have had a BIG cycling team so its natural that the Brits are excited. Its been over 20 years since ANC/Halfords luckily competed in the Tour and they were not a team focused on Euro races. Dimspace is being made out to be gullible and stupid but I would think everyone would know he isnt based on previous posts. He is just having a hard time understanding the negativity surrounding Sky before they have done a thing.

If people want to be negative about a new team who do have dodgy associations and past, lets go and hammer RadioShack or BMC instead of slating Sky. To think I am not even a Sky fan, I actually like Cervelo but have rarely heard anything thrown at them on this forum despite their stellar performances and host of improvers last season.

I think it comes down to the PR machine. They've done too much and this forum is full of poster who can spot BS a mile away. We've gotten in early. Also the PR machine kicked in during the off season, so to relieve ourselves from Shack, Bruyneel, Armstrong and more dwelling on what did and did not happen in France, we collectively decided to talk about Wiggins. Ironically for the very reasons you mentioned. He's improved, fans are taking note, he left his ex-team mid contract (which some of us predicted) and he is a legitimate chance of a top 10 finish on a new team which has made some solid promises. Just because I think they've opened the door to possible rider enhancements does not mean I hate them or despise team Sky. Good luck to them. But as I said, I find it hard to believe at 29 years of age a man can transform from being dropped from the Groupetto to a transformed mountain goat who surprises a nation with his new form.

 

[mc_mountain]

lucybears posted this link on the teamskyfans site

http:/http://www.veloresults.co.uk/2010/01/bradley-wiggins-sky-leader-at-the-team-launch/?forumid=271566/

this statement leapt out me
"As the season progressed I knew I couldn't stay at Garmin for reasons I can't go into.

to potentially mean Garmin wouldn't extend his programme.

having said i can't see why brailsford would deliberately making statements that can be interpreted as they have been in this thread. to demostrate to the other teams that they are serious even if this means organised/individual rider doping?

 

[maltiv]

lucybears posted this link on the teamskyfans site

http:/http://www.veloresults.co.uk/2010/01/bradley-wiggins-sky-leader-at-the-team-launch/?forumid=271566/

this statement leapt out me
"As the season progressed I knew I couldn't stay at Garmin for reasons I can't go into.

to potentially mean Garmin wouldn't extend his programme.

having said i can't see why brailsford would deliberately making statements that can be interpreted as they have been in this thread. to demostrate to the other teams that they are serious even if this means organised/individual rider doping?

What I noticed when reading your post is that you barely use capital letters. In addition, you also make incomplete sentences. Mistakes like this are common amongst people who dropped out of school. People who drops out of school, often start drinking/taking drugs etc. Thus, you must be a doper!

...let's stop over-analyzing, shall we?

 

[mc_mountain]

I've never tested positive!

 

[Berzin]

Wiggins is going to get shelled out the back in this year's Tour.

Last year's Tour was a fluke. The course was not challenging, there wasn't enough attacking riding in the very few key moments the race DID have in the mountains, and he held on enough in the time trials to keep his high overall placing.

That's not going to happen this year. He's not an attacker in the mountains, he can barely hold on for grim death as it is. If the race is ridden conservatively, then he'll get a top 5.

If the race becomes animated and guys show themselves to really want to compete against each other, then Wiggo won't make the top 10.

No freakin' way.

 

[Digger]

Wiggins is going to get shelled out the back in this year's Tour.

Last year's Tour was a fluke. The course was not challenging, there wasn't enough attacking riding in the very few key moments the race DID have in the mountains, and he held on enough in the time trials to keep his high overall placing.

That's not going to happen this year. He's not an attacker in the mountains, he can barely hold on for grim death as it is. If the race is ridden conservatively, then he'll get a top 5.

If the race becomes animated and guys show themselves to really want to compete against each other, the Wiggo won't make the top 10.

No freakin' way.

Totally agree. He has totally lost the run of himself and Sky have messed up by shelling out so much for the guy, because he will not win a Grand Tour. Alot of faith been placed in a guy who produced the goods in only one Grand Tour. It's not like the guy is 23 or so. I can see him getting sick with the stress of being team leader or else blowing up big time in the first mountain stage. Garmin was a good fit for him and he has shown himself to be very mercenary in his attitude. I don't have much sympathy for Vaughters in general, but in this instance, I certainly do, as he was the guy who showed faith in Bradley. Bradley seems to have forgotten this very quickly.

 

[Digger]

Me: “Question: Is there a difference between doing the right thing and being seen to do the right thing?”

Him: “Good point — the only way is to do the right thing regardless of being seen or not.”

Me: “Just thinking out loud . . .”

Him: “I agree with your thoughts but it is hopefully the one thing I will do, ie have a value-and-belief system and actually live by it!”

Me: “Here’s my take on it: you did the right thing by standing by David in Biarritz. You are being seen to do the right thing by not signing him now.”

He does not reply.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article6926944.ece

Kimmage interview with Brailsford from November.

 

[BroDeal]

TI can see him getting sick with the stress of being team leader or else blowing up big time in the first mountain stage.

I can see a record breaking bike toss, one that would inspire awe in David Millar.

 

[Anonymous]

Dave Brailsford video interview here
http://msn.tv2sporten.no/sykkel/knallharde-antidopingkrav-i-team-sky-3100042.html
discussing how they went about hiring riders, blood passport, doping etc..

the gist of it..
we asked to see the blood passport.. any rider not signed off we didnt sign them.
we found it useful looking at the profiles.. blah blah
he hopes the bio passport continues and gets more sophisticated
this team is going to "try" and race clean
there will be no tolerance, or certainly no systematic doping on the team
but there is always the chance you will get on rogue rider..

dave b.. not done yourself any favours there mate.. the "try" doesnt look good, and correcting yourself when you said tolerance, and changing it to no systematic doping looks like a backtrack...
the rogue rider defence is good though, sounds too much like yuo get caught, we hang you out to dry..
really not helped himself.. :/