Team Time Trials

[Netserk]

I like TTTs.


....As one day events.

In GTs and other stage races no thanks

 

[cineteq]

A TTT has a place in GTs and it should be used more often. Its distance should be proportional to the GT parcours, so it's not to be too decisive for the overall.

It allows the whole team to contribute to their GC leader.

It allows for opportunities for some, however it could doom others. Same thing as an ITT or a MTF would do. Another variable of many variables that would enrich GTs.

 

[woodenswan]

I don't like them at all. I wish they would disappear.

same here

all right, that is too harsh. just keep 'em short. + i don like one as the 1st stage of a GT

 

[The Hitch]

and its bad? confuse the overall? i think is good
force the climbers to attack, not just in the last 3-4 km in the mountains

And what happens when the best climbers are the ones who gain time - often the case as they have the best teams.

You clearly haven't thought this through

 

[The Hitch]

It allows for opportunities for some, however it could doom others. Same thing as an ITT or a MTF would do. Another variable of many variables that would enrich GTs.

That doesn't make any sense.
An mtf if my team is **** and im about to be "doomed" i dig deep and limit my losses.

In a ttt it doesn't matter what i do because i get measured on the time of the 4th weakest rider of my team.

 

[cineteq]

That doesn't make any sense.
An mtf if my team is **** and im about to be "doomed" i dig deep and limit my losses.

Well, we are in luck, I don't think you make sense at all, as usual.

 

[RedheadDane]

I kinda like the mind-**** situation that happens on the flat power-routes when a generally strong team has a GC guy who's horrible at TTing.

 

[woodenswan]

also, why call one random TTT the World Championships?

 

[guncha]

To me short TTT (12km - 15km) would be a good way to start GT.
Prologue is a waste if GT has two ITT later in a race.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

IMHO TTTs are both the beautiful figurehead of the sport and a disturbance to GC race tactics in stage races.

So I'm quite fickle about TTTs in GTs.

However I like the big show-off a TTT is, and my oppinion is that the discipline should be presented at the greatest scenes. Not bringing disturbance to race tactics, the TTTs should be in the Vuelta-format - a 1st stage below-20k route ....rather than a 75k rite of passage, including dull neutralizing rules for time differences The latter really makes no sense and degrade the TTT discipline, which it do not deserve.

Moreover: I like the UCI kind of re-introduction of the TTT at the worlds. But why not on a national level instead of pro team competing? I really liked those days of four-men 100k national TTTs. Why not re-introduce the original discipline at the worlds? I really liked that spectacle

 

[Afrank]

A really technical TTT, preferably ending with a climb!

This.

IT's a team sport
IT's the most beautiful discipline of the sport.
However, thse gimmick 25km TTT are simply pathetic.
No one needs that.
So either make a real 60km TTT or just leave it.

And the bolded part of this. 60 I think would be a little much, but I don't see anything wrong with a TTT because having a strong team is part of our sport. Just so long as it is long enough that it doesn't create gaps so big that the guys whose teams weak on TTing aren't completely out before the first mountain (Like Euskatel).

also, why call one random TTT the World Championships?

What? The world TTT wasn't a random TTT that they decided to make the world TTT. It was designed to be the team time trial for the world championships and was held in the same week as all the other world championship events.

 

[woodenswan]

What? The world TTT wasn't a random TTT that they decided to make the world TTT. It was designed to be the team time trial for the world championships and was held in the same week as all the other world championship events.

ahmm.. so it isn't a random TTT event because it's called the WC and held at a particular date?! nice reasoning mate

obviously what i meant was the fact that it is contested by trade teams so there's absolutely no reason for it to be named a WC event.

 

[Afrank]

ahmm.. so it isn't a random TTT event because it's called the WC and held at a particular date?! nice reasoning mate

obviously what i meant was the fact that it is contested by trade teams so there's absolutely no reason for it to be named a WC event.

You said "why call one random TTT the world championship" which makes it sound like the organizers just took an already existing TTT and decided to make it the world race.

And the event wouldn't have worked if national teams contested it. Who could we consider the TTT champions then?

 

[jens_attacks]

I don't like short gimmick TTTs like those RCS and Unipublic love so much, they feel like a waste of a race day. If they are going to throw a TTT in a GT route, it should be long enough to impact the race (>45km) otherwise I don't see the point.

And not every year, of course. One each 3/4 editions seems about right to me.

this. can't say it better.

 

[woodenswan]

And the event wouldn't have worked if national teams contested it. Who could we consider the TTT champions then?

???
think.
it's good for you.

 

[Afrank]

???
think.
it's good for you.

, yeah we should have national teams contest and then hope all the riders on the winning team are all on the same trade team. Teams are made up of riders from many different countries so to have a team be the world team time trial champions it has to be the trade teams that compete.

 

[woodenswan]

, yeah we should have national teams contest and then hope all the riders on the winning team are all on the same trade team. Teams are made up of riders from many different countries so to have a team be the world team time trial champions it has to be the trade teams that compete.

i admit, it would look stupid, or at least somewhat unconventional to have the TTT WCs on different trade teams. not more unconventional or illogical than having a WC event without national teams though

 

[MellowJohnny]

Its a cycling discipline at the end of the day, so I think 1 is okay for a GT,

I agree it would be good to have it out of the way and replace the prologue, then having a short and long ITT somewhere afterwards

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Great stuff. Must be at least 3 months since we've debated the relative merits of the TTT. I'm still in the 'for' camp. Very much so.

 

[SafeBet]

Now that's a wrong statement in many ways.

How about mentioning one of them instead of being so criptic?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Maybe if we didn't seem to get one in almost every GT it wouldn't seem so played out, but frankly they belong on the track and should never have left it.

As to them affecting the GC... Michele Scarponi lost more time in the 32km TTT in the 2010 Giro than he lost in the other 3453km combined. By about four times. In a 32km ITT, there is no way, no way on earth Ivan Basso takes more than 2 minutes out of Scarponi.

TTTs are, however, here to stay. If the 2009 Tour didn't kill the TTT off for good, nothing can, sadly. Here's the top 4 teams in the TTT that year:
Astana
Saxo Bank
Garmin
Liquigas

Here are the teams for the top 10 on GC that year:
Astana
Saxo Bank
Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Astana
Liquigas
Garmin
Liquigas
Française des Jeux

By the time they got to the Alps, riders who didn't have super-strong TTT teams were already eliminated from contention, allowing the strong TTT teams to tighten their vice-like grip on the race, which they had because they, surprise surprise, were the strongest teams. Riders on the strongest teams are already advantaged by, you know, having the strongest team.

The arguments for more or less boil down to two things.
1) they look cool. I don't disagree, but aesthetics is a poor return on the effect they have on the GC;
2) they force teams to select more balanced teams, meaning fewer mountain domestiques and more km raced alone by the leaders.

Point 2 actually has some merit, but I don't see why they can't just include tougher rouleur stages, with some cobbles and the like, instead. After all, anything else a TTT has to offer can be replicated, only without most of the flaws, with an ITT.

 

[DominicDecoco]

How about mentioning one of them instead of being so criptic?

You want me mention why cycling is also a team sport?

Is this for real?

 

[Izzy eviel]

I like TTT at the start. It's a good spectacle. I would prefer a TTT that doesn't affect the GC too much.


The devil in me however would love to see a MTTT. Esp up the Zoncolan.

 

[Magnus]

TTTs are, however, here to stay. If the 2009 Tour didn't kill the TTT off for good, nothing can, sadly. Here's the top 4 teams in the TTT that year:
Astana
Saxo Bank
Garmin
Liquigas

Here are the teams for the top 10 on GC that year:
Astana
Saxo Bank
Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Astana
Liquigas
Garmin
Liquigas
Française des Jeux

But disregarding the result of the ttt, the only rider who would enter the top 10 would be Mikel Astarloza who tested positive anyway. Considering the composition of Astana, Saxo Bank, Garmin and Liquigas in 2009 it's hardly surprising that they would fill the top 4 of the ttt and the top 10 of the GC.

 

[Magnus]

That doesn't make any sense.
An mtf if my team is **** and im about to be "doomed" i dig deep and limit my losses.

In a ttt it doesn't matter what i do because i get measured on the time of the 4th weakest rider of my team.

Yeah, cause one rider can't influence how a team prepares and cooperates.