That's a lot of what if's in that video ...
TJV sure made some "sacrifices" in order to give Wout his wins and green jersey, but Roglič crashing into that hay bale that was dragged on the road just in front of him is suddenly Wout's fault as well? Come on now...
Oh and Dennis has been sick and recently had covid. I doubt he's in great form. And even if he was, I doubt he would have been of the same value as Wout in stage 5...
I was prepared to disagree with Hornet’s takes, but he does make some sense. His general take was that a dedicated strong superdom like Dennis or Wout behaving as a superdom would have behaved differently and had myriad impacts on the race. It would not have prevented the hay bail, of course. But his argument is that Wout was tucked in the back saving strength so he could go for the win instead of controlling from the front and guiding his GC contenders. Because he was saving strength by being farther back, he crashed, and because he was riding for himself, he rode by Vingo when Vingo was doing his weird thing with the biked, which meant he later had to drop back to shepherd Vingo back from a much worse deficit than it should have been. And also meant he was not there with Roglic at the front, who, instead of being on the wheel of a strongman like Wout at the front of the race, was back enough that he couldn’t see the hay bail. It’s of course a lot to attribute to Wout, but the general point remains: Wout’s focus on his own results has hurt the team’s GC chances. It would be better for GC ambitions to bring a 100% dedicated team. You can talk trade offs and value attribution between probability weighted Top GC results vs stages and general interest, but that basic assertion is hard to argue against.
You guys forget that in nearly every single GT, the strongest rider wins. Its pretty simple.
Except in 2011, 2012, 2014, arguably 2015, arguably 2019…watts matter most, but so does team strength, the strategic deployment of that strength, clear focus on simple objectives (see Team Sky), positioning (typically aided by the team), team support after crashed and mechanicals, etc. If Vingegaard had been sent to the Giro, for example, Roglic likely would only be down 1 minute instead of close to 3. Admittedly that is speculation.
It all makes sense, but all you guys absolutely love to dwell on tactics that has close to no impact on the race. Could Vingegaard have gotten 10 seconds at stage 4? Sure, but going alone was the safer option after getting triple 2nds in Denmark. Was stage 6 stupid? Yes, in hindsight, but
I think this was pretty clearly a bizarre decision at the time and most, while impressed, found it to be a dumb waste of energy that could instead be used to help his team. And ultimately it also ironically cost him the win and the yellow Jersey.
QUOTE="Valv.Piti, post: 2727784, member: 113798"]
Now, how many seconds did Wout save on stage 5? I dont think it was seconds, I think were talking minutes.
Riis and Horner are notorious for stating stuff like that. Its what Horner has made an career off of, basically criticizing everyone and to Bjarne, theres only one thing that matters and that is the GC. Guy doesnt care about anything else and has time and time again been on danish TV criticizing everybody and their moms for doing everything wrong, just like Horner. Trust me on that one. Here's a guy who desperately wants to show he knows much more and is much better than virtually every DS. I wonder how he woulda felt about all this if he had Wout on his team instead of Cancellara in the 07-10 years. Cancellara was fine being more or less a domestique throughout these races since he had small chance of winning anything else than time trials in a Tour-setting. He did so on what, one occasion in 07, and was 100% dom on the cobbled stage in 10 (just like Wout). But if he had Wouts skillset, im absolutely positive Riis would have managed his team differently because you SIMPLY CANNOT keep such a rider down. I have said it many times, but its Peter Sagan on steroids right now. Sagan has never been this good in TdF. At least I cannot remember. These two complaining about Jumbo is the least surprising in the whole cycling world.
Vingegaard is in the perfect position, and now its time to strike. What more could you want? You even have 2 stages already and green jersey. You guys will most likely point to the first week and yell Rabofail like hysterical children if he loses the races with 10-20 seconds, but I do not need to remind you guys how much worse it could have been without Wout on stage 5 to Arenberg. The only one to blame would be Vingegaard himself after that hilarious bikeswap/whatever that was.
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I agree that Wout is insanely good; I am a Wout fan. But you’re trying to have it both ways: You’re saying that Riis’s view of Wout is clouded by his single minded focus on GC and really what Wout brings to the table is just more badass anyways, which is defensible, but also that Wout’s focus on his own results do not come at a cost to his team’s GC ambitions. Clearly they do. Like Horner or not, and I am more in the camp of not, his points do make a certain kind of sense. Does it make sense to contest a group sprint on day 2, exposing yourself to risk of crashing 3 days before the pivotal cobbles stage? Not if you’re focused on helping deliver GC results; yes if focused on delivering stage victories and temporary yellow jerseys. Does tucking into the pack and riding your own cobbles race until you’re directly ordered to help your GC leaders make sense? Not if you’re focused on helping your GC leaders survive the cobbles and even take time; yes if focused on preserving strength to contest the stage. Same with stage 6. And so on.
This Tour will go down as at least somewhat successful for TJV because of Wout, no doubt about that. But does that come at the cost of likelihood of winning the Tour GC? Absolutely. Well never now for sure because Roglic is hurt, but we’ll at least soon know for sure if Vingegaard has the legs for that to matter.
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