Teams & Riders Team Visma - Lease a Bike

[Red Rick]

I don’t understand Schachmann and Goossens sharing that to the media. It’s kinda BS plus it makes them look bad(fair) and babyish(fair).

Remember when Thomas crashed out Gesink last year and nobody said anything about Thomas?

This is very specific and deliberate.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I was thinking about this some more. As this came out of the blue. What i think actually happened or is happening is Laporte and to some extent van Aert are bullying the peloton. As if they are blocked they will still pass. I actually can agree with that. As i seen it on multiple times. But then say it like that. Don't instead single out Rogla. As it just makes no sense doing it like that.

 

[Bolder]

Someone can accidentally cause a crash, no problem. But it's clear that JV is consistently causing crashes and near crashes by trying to go in not existing gaps. More than fair that colleagues in the peloton talk about that in post race interviews, but apparently that makes you girl.

With all due respect, this is nonsense. Every team has good bike handlers; some have great ones. But trying to blame a team for "consistently" causing crashes is wrong.

Now...that all said. I am a huge Roglic fan; not as much of a stan as the Slovenians on here, obvs. But he does crash more than he should for a serious GC contender. He's not the only one, of course. I suspect that's largely due to his later start in pro cycling. If you've been riding in a pack since you were 12 you'll have worked your way up to pro-level speeds, and you can learn things like double pacelines, taking a feed, putting on a gilet, at a time when crashing won't necessarily dislocate your shoulder, wreck your source of livelihood etc.

Just think if Roglic hadn't crashed in the following races, just to name a few: 2020 Dauphine, 2019 Giro (he did crash toward the end, right?), 2021 P-N, 2021 Tour, 2022 Tour. He could have won all of them. And I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of others....and I may be getting the dates wrong bc it's early and haven't finished my coffee...

 

[CyclistAbi]

I believe we now have a picture on what is going on in the peloton. Laporte and to some extent van Aert are bullying the peloton. If they are blocked they will still pass. If they would be doing that on stage 5 we might still have a race. Now there is another option and that is don't block them when they come.

Anyway. As peloton will need to deal with this through the reminder of race. They just kicked Rogla when he was done. Not realizing he is not dead just yet. It's like saying Kuss is bullying us in the bunch. OK. And Steven is right there alongside him helped him. Oh C'mon.

 

[RedheadDane]

But he does crash more than he should for a serious GC contender. He's not the only one, of course. I suspect that's largely due to his later start in pro cycling.

Not to mention that he comes from a sport that's basically falling with style.

 

[CyclistAbi]

But you do realize that Rogla crashed because of others? If anybody then he could have complained. We all seen what he chose to do instead. Anyway. Don't be silly with such accusations. They sound the same as the ones of him being in demise. And if Laporte and van Aert are your problems. Be a man and say it so. If Kuss is picking on you. Well then i guess good for him.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Remember when Thomas crashed out Gesink last year and nobody said anything about Thomas?

This is very specific and deliberate.

Not wanting to loose out on a potential big money Ineos contract is a powerful motivation.
Thomas crashes a lot and Ineos are always mixing it up with the sprint trains on flat stages near the end. Clearly it's not just Jumbo, but multiple teams who act the same.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Remember when Thomas crashed out Gesink last year and nobody said anything about Thomas?

This is very specific and deliberate.

Because it wasn't due to aggressive riding but rather because he oversaw a bump in the road.

Unlike what people in here believe, Schachmann isn't trying to make out Roglic a *** bike handler, he wasn't even singling out Roglic, he just named in as an example. Instead he's making a point about how Jumbo as a team are overdoing the fight for position, divebombing corners, pushing through gaps where no gaps are etc. That sentiment seems sort of shared across other teams.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Roglic caused the crash with 13 kms to go in stage six . He was riding in the grass, lost his balance when he rejoined the peleton, somehow kept it up BUT the chain reaction caused Van Rensberg and 2 FJ riders to crash.

Gladly you didn't fell too.

 

[Elos Anjos]

But you do realize that Rogla crashed because of others? If anybody then he could have complained. We all seen what he chose to do instead. Anyway. Don't be silly with such accusations. They sound the same as the ones of him being in demise. And if Laporte and van Aert are your problems. Be a man and say it so. If Kuss is picking on you. Well then i guess good for him.

That's the bottom line. Riding in a peloton is a nervous wreck, very chaotic. Just look at the videos made by Velon if don't have the real life experience and you get a glimpse of what is pro cycling.

 

[CyclistAbi]

From my point of view watching this race.

Wout van Aert. He does race on a limit at some points. Like deviating from the line when sprinting. Sending not one but four rationale commissar to talk to him. To explain he should not do things like deviating from the line. As people could get killed. That is a good thing that it happened. And sending four shouldn't bruise his ego. On when going back and getting through the peloton again. To the front. He will get through. In my opinion no real point in trying to prevent that. Just accept it and make room. Taking a piss at a wrong place in Denmark. That is not his fault. Danes should be blamed for that. Containing van Aert is impossible. His team tried and failed big. Pidcock explained the situation rather well. All in all van Aert rested for a bit on stage 7 and now it's on again.

Laporte. He is aggressive at front and in my opinion does a good job. That incident where Pogi wanted to be part of the Jumbo boys and he said no. That is in my opinion just. Pogi has Almeida sitting on a couch at home. All this talk about Merckx. Majka going on and on. On how great they are as a team. Fine. Then ride with your own team. Problem solved.

GC section. When seeing Jumbos just pay some respect make a room and let them through. Don't make it personal. If you don't agree Laporte will be sent back. In my opinion the aggression here is on the other side.

Roglič. His crash was not his fault. But when he was down. Due to building up the tension at front. Bora GC section decided to kick him while he was down. All happy they have finally beaten Rogla. If only would they turn around and realize they are beating around the bush. As Rogla is already on top of the hill. In front of their whole GC section.

On how to go on from here. Don't block Jumbos. It's futile. Make room. From ambitions point of view. Pogi won't give you anything. He needs 500+ wins in his career. He had yellow and crushed you on stage 7. Just because he decided so and because he can. If you want something then better look in other directions. For example Rogla needs seconds and you likely wouldn't mind a stage win or two. Take it or leave it.

 

[noob]

Throwing out this thought again;
Does no one agree with me that cycling as a whole is changing away from "all for GC" towards more individual results in general?

I don't feel like Jumbo is alone in this. They are just the most extreme example.

I imagine stuff like age (and generations) matters here, and also higher competion as there's way more cyclists on the market. Plus it's internationalisation etc etc.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Considering they gain each day something in regards to green. And lose each day something in regards to yellow.

It's rather questionable. In regards to GC.

 

[Oldermanish]

Throwing out this thought again;
Does no one agree with me that cycling as a whole is changing away from "all for GC" towards more individual results in general?

I don't feel like Jumbo is alone in this. They are just the most extreme example.

I imagine stuff like age (and generations) matters here, and also higher competion as there's way more cyclists on the market. Plus it's internationalisation etc etc.

Yes, no, probably. One thing is clear: the pressure on riders to get results has caused more to take risks and almost no one respects the serious credentials some riders have. There was another "accepted rule" in the peloton that you didn't crowd major GC riders during the stage unless they chose to take risks in sprint finales. Ciappucci comes to mind as an almost constant nuisance to sprint teams in the 90's and he got shoved around for it. DS's no doubt realized that what comes around back then and didn't want their high-priced talent Collabrellied into the ditch.
No more. The fight for the front is race-long and aggressive.

 

[acm]

From my point of view watching this race.

Wout van Aert. He does race on a limit at some points. Like deviating from the line when sprinting. Sending not one but four rationale commissar to talk to him. To explain he should not do things like deviating from the line. As people could get killed. That is a good thing that it happened. And sending four shouldn't bruise his ego. On when going back and getting through the peloton again. To the front. He will get through. In my opinion no real point in trying to prevent that. Just accept it and make room. Taking a piss at a wrong place in Denmark. That is not his fault. Danes should be blamed for that. Containing van Aert is impossible. His team tried and failed big. Pidcock explained the situation rather well. All in all van Aert rested for a bit on stage 7 and now it's on again.

Laporte. He is aggressive at front and in my opinion does a good job. That incident where Pogi wanted to be part of the Jumbo boys and he said no. That is in my opinion just. Pogi has Almeida sitting on a couch at home. All this talk about Merckx. Majka going on and on. On how great they are as a team. Fine. Then ride with your own team. Problem solved.

GC section. When seeing Jumbos just pay some respect make a room and let them through. Don't make it personal. If you don't agree Laporte will be sent back. In my opinion the aggression here is on the other side.

Roglič. His crash was not his fault. But when he was down. Due to building up the tension at front. Bora GC section decided to kick him while he was down. All happy they have finally beaten Rogla. If only would they turn around and realize they are beating around the bush. As Rogla is already on top of the hill. In front of their whole GC section.

On how to go on from here. Don't block Jumbos. It's futile. Make room. From ambitions point of view. Pogi won't give you anything. He needs 500+ wins in his career. He had yellow and crushed you on stage 7. Just because he decided so and because he can. If you want something then better look in other directions. For example Rogla needs seconds and you likely wouldn't mind a stage win or two. Take it or leave it.

Exactly. And Bora did the same thing at PN 2021, drilling in the front while Roglic was down.
At least Schachmann can't blame Roglic for today's crash.

 

[Oldermanish]

Considering they gain each day something in regards to green. And lose each day something in regards to yellow.

It's rather questionable. In regards to GC.

Today's WvA win should take pressure off the green chase enough to focus on GC. We'll see if it happens and provides and results.

 

[Rackham]

Throwing out this thought again;
Does no one agree with me that cycling as a whole is changing away from "all for GC" towards more individual results in general?

I don't feel like Jumbo is alone in this. They are just the most extreme example.

I imagine stuff like age (and generations) matters here, and also higher competion as there's way more cyclists on the market. Plus it's internationalisation etc etc.

I think there's some truth in this, whilst there's also the advent of star riders with celebrity status getting whatever they want. Jumbo has bent over backwards to give WvA everything he demanded, whilst they've treated Roglic (for example) in a highly questionable manner.

Beyond everything we've seen in this Tour (& saw again today), I also find small details like Jumbo's social media posts about Rog highly patronizing. For example labelling him a "fighter" after yesterday.

No. That's just one small fraction of his character as a rider. First & foremost he's a champion. A rider doesn't climb La Planche des Belles Filles ('Super Planche' as well) & finish 3rd in the stage (beating all over main GC favorites from other teams) 2 days after dislocating his shoulder/popping it back in (& sustaining a back injury) without being one of the absolute best GC riders in the world.

If Jumbo feel such a rider is now of secondary concern (which is clearly the case), that's their choice. I disagree with them entirely of course but hey, I'm a Roglic fan.

Today's WvA win should take pressure off the green chase enough to focus on GC. We'll see if it happens and provides and results.

WvA said himself he's worked less on his climbing this year, so I expect we'll only see a few turns on the flat & that'll be that.

 

[staubsauger]

WvA is Jumbo's crystal clear no. 1 nowadays after his displays in the classics and he's certainly going to win the green jersey and 2-4 stages. He legitimately gets full support from the team. Vingegaard gets 2nd anyway if nothing unprecedented happens.

Roglic wins the Vuelta a Espana again with full team support. He's not good enough to win the Tour de France anyway. Too crash prone among other things. A bit like Alex Zülle, despite having a good kick. He actually had full team support in 2020 and couldn't finish it off.

Jumbo doesn't do anything wrong, y'all just don't wanna recognize it.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@staubsauger

Thanks. We got it.

 

[Red Rick]

WvA is Jumbo's crystal clear no. 1 nowadays after his displays in the classics and he's certainly going to win the green jersey and 2-4 stages. He legitimately gets full support from the team. Vingegaard gets 2nd anyway if nothing unprecedented happens.

Roglic wins the Vuelta a Espana again with full team support. He's not good enough to win the Tour de France anyway. Too crash prone among other things. A bit like Alex Zülle, despite having a good kick. He actually had full team support in 2020 and couldn't finish it off.

Jumbo doesn't do anything wrong, y'all just don't wanna recognize it.

The entire argument to support the decision is "they can't win anyway" which goes against everything the team says 365 days a year or does outside of July.

Wout van Aert already gets full support during the classics. And he didn't even deliver in the races he was the sole leader of the team for the past 2 years. It's like saying Cancellara shouldn't have to work for Andy Schleck in the 2009-2011 Tours. It's completely inconsistent with how any TdF winning team has operated in the past.

The only reason Van Aert gets leadership in the Tour is commercial interest and chauvinism. There's a reason Kwiatkowski has a single Grand Tour stage to his name.

Not to say "they can't win anyway" is utterly disingenuous after yesterday. The reasoning is completely backwards. You start with the conclusion that Van Aert shouldn't have to ride for Vingegaard and Roglic and base every assumption to suit that.

 

[staubsauger]

The entire argument to support the decision is "they can't win anyway" which goes against everything the team says 365 days a year or does outside of July.

Wout van Aert already gets full support during the classics. And he didn't even deliver in the races he was the sole leader of the team for the past 2 years. It's like saying Cancellara shouldn't have to work for Andy Schleck in the 2009-2011 Tours. It's completely inconsistent with how any TdF winning team has operated in the past.

The only reason Van Aert gets leadership in the Tour is commercial interest and chauvinism. There's a reason Kwiatkowski has a single Grand Tour stage to his name.

Not to say "they can't win anyway" is utterly disingenuous after yesterday. The reasoning is completely backwards. You start with the conclusion that Van Aert shouldn't have to ride for Vingegaard and Roglic and base every assumption to suit that.

If he doesn't get Covid-19 WvA likely wins either Tour of Flanders or Paris-Roubaix as well. That's a 1994 Gewiss like season performance actually.

What Jumbo claims and what Jumbo knows are 2 entirely different things. Once & Telekom also proclaimed their intention to win the yellow jersey all those years. They knew they're not gonna beat US Postal eventually. Except for 2003.

If Jumbo can win the Tour de France. It's because UAE as a team collapses. In that case, they can also do so with Vingegaard and in this setup.

There isn't anything to win for Jumbo by fully supporting Roglic at the Tour de France. Actually they are only losing the green jersey and stage wins from WvA.

Jumbo actually gains more by not fully supporting Roglic. While still getting their podium spot with Vingegaard and maintaining their chance for the yellow jersey if UAE collapses.

Roglic, just like Zülle gonna end up with a way better palamares than Joseba Beloki by winning the Vuelta a Espana multiple times.

Andy Scheck actually should've ridden either the Giro d'Italia(again) or the Vuelta a Espana to become a grand tour winner at one point of his career . He's very happy with being awarded one instead. You are, without any bootlicking @Red Rick, too wise to consider his gt palamares better than that of Zülle, Roglic, Quintana, Menchov, Rominger etc just because of that.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@staubsauger

Thanks. We got it.

 

[Oldermanish]

If he doesn't get Covid-19 WvA likely wins either Tour of Flanders or Paris-Roubaix as well. That's a 1994 Gewiss like season performance actually.

What Jumbo claims and what Jumbo knows are 2 entirely different things. Once & Telekom also proclaimed their intention to win the yellow jersey all those years. They knew they're not gonna beat US Postal eventually. Except for 2003.

If Jumbo can win the Tour de France. It's because UAE as a team collapses. In that case, they can also do so with Vingegaard and in this setup.

There isn't anything to win for Jumbo by fully supporting Roglic at the Tour de France. Actually they are only losing the green jersey and stage wins from WvA.

Jumbo actually gains more by not fully supporting Roglic. While still getting their podium spot with Vingegaard and maintaining their chance for the yellow jersey if UAE collapses.

Roglic, just like Zülle gonna end up with a way better palamares than Joseba Beloki by winning the Vuelta a Espana multiple times.

Andy Scheck actually should've ridden either the Giro d'Italia(again) or the Vuelta a Espana to become a grand tour winner at one point of his career . He's very happy with being awarded one instead. You are, without any bootlicking @Red Rick, too wise to consider his gt palamares better than that of Zülle, Roglic, Quintana, Menchov, Rominger etc just because of that.

It's easy writing your conjecture and supporting arguments after the fact. Everyone can be a genius, then.
Every GC team had some idea how their best riders would finish the Stage 1 TT. Then it rained and some riders experienced standing water; others much better road conditions. The end result was a much-compressed GC because the seriously strong riders couldn't go as fast on wet corners.
Every committed GC team knew the cobbled stage could change their plans. At least JV had some alternative responses and yes; Roglic lost out due to a random hay bale not bad bike handling. If the rest of the team had been on his wheel they'd be out of it too. You move to the next plan, on the fly and plan for the next plot twist on a stage like that.

Comparing Schleck, Armstrong, Zulle, Rominger to riders today is also creatively self-supporting a pointless "ranking". They operated on a different set of rules and oversight and all performed well beyond their natural abilities.

As JV stands tactically, I'd agree with the idea of fully supporting Vingo. What else would they do? And how will he perform? He'll sit on Tadej's wheel until someone compelling enough forces a concerted chase and then he'd better hang on.

 

[SHAD0W93]

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/schachmann-calls-out-dangerous-riding-from-roglic-and-jumbo-visma-after-tour-de-france-crash/

We made it in the news.

Does it count when it’s from our own website though?

 

[Rackham]

The entire argument to support the decision is "they can't win anyway" which goes against everything the team says 365 days a year or does outside of July.

Wout van Aert already gets full support during the classics. And he didn't even deliver in the races he was the sole leader of the team for the past 2 years. It's like saying Cancellara shouldn't have to work for Andy Schleck in the 2009-2011 Tours. It's completely inconsistent with how any TdF winning team has operated in the past.

The only reason Van Aert gets leadership in the Tour is commercial interest and chauvinism. There's a reason Kwiatkowski has a single Grand Tour stage to his name.

Not to say "they can't win anyway" is utterly disingenuous after yesterday. The reasoning is completely backwards. You start with the conclusion that Van Aert shouldn't have to ride for Vingegaard and Roglic and base every assumption to suit that.

Indeed re bolded. This isn't even rocket science, i.e. take one look at the Jumbo Visma squad & then look at the TdF parcours: Sepp Kuss coud win loads of mountain stages from the break & the polka jersey, Roglic could scoop-up stages if he dropped GC aspirations, Laporte could go for the classics-type stages etc.

If we look at this from a purely sporting perspective & especially with regards to stage hunting & annex jersey classifications, then Wout van Aert is absolutely not the only rider in that team who can win stages & bring exposure.