Teams taking care of their riders... Or not?

[Waterloo Sunrise]

More boring nonsense. I've never posted about 'marginal gains'.

Goodbye.

 

[The Hitch]

Who am I denigrating?

John Degenkolb had a good Vuelta. But when i said i was happy for him, you threw a tantrum that i should not feel happy for him but sorry for him because his victories were "worthless" and because he will get smashed in every sprint next year.

How much does CQranking pay you guys to keep advertising it by the way?

More than Ibarguren pays you to fanboy all his clients.

 

[El Pistolero]

So you don't have any real arguments lol? Tell me then, what exactly was so impressive in how AK got his bronze medal? He got in the right move at the right time, kudos to him, but so did other lesser riders. Grivko, Jack Bauer and Beppu aren't exactly big climbing talents...

Which clients are you talking about anyway? Samuel Sanchez?

 

[sublimit]

More boring nonsense. I've never posted about 'marginal gains'.

Goodbye.

Dont waste your time on this Belgian idiot. I've fallen into the trap on a few occasions but the guy is like Japanese knot-weed.. persistent,, irritating but impossible to get rid of.

 

[Bushman]

So you don't have any real arguments lol? Tell me then, what exactly was so impressive in how AK got his bronze medal? He got in the right move at the right time, kudos to him, but so did other lesser riders. Grivko, Jack Bauer and Beppu aren't exactly big climbing talents...

Which clients are you talking about anyway? Samuel Sanchez?

But did any of Bauer, beppu or grivko win a medal?

 

[El Pistolero]

But did any of Bauer, beppu or grivko win a medal?

Of course not, they're not sprinters, AK is. Most sprinters foolishly only had attention to Cavendish and the British "dream" team. AK was smart enough to realize he can't win against the likes of Cavendish, Boonen and Greipel, so he went for the break. The Olympics were won and lost by tactics, not so much by physical strength(of course you still need the energy to attack from 8km to go like Vino/Uran did). I can't be the only one that saw this...

Last year AK got close in quite a few sprints and this year he won 2 sprints. What a shocker... Clearly proof that Katusha uses superior training methods right there... Too bad it didn't work out for Pippo Pozzato, Gert Steegmans, Robbie Mcewen, Leif Hoste, Denis Menchov(who actually had 2 top tens in a GT last year) and now Joaquim Rodriguez wants to get away from them as soon as possible.

What a team.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

It's very peculiar. Kristoff said that he had no sort of follow-up at BMC, except that they told him to lose weight. They didn't tell him how and they didn't supervise his training program. At Katusha, he says he's getting a lot more support in terms of training, nutrition etc and it has obviously resulted in a great improvement.

When you look at how unprofessional some of those teams are, it's not really surprising that Sky dominate like they do.

exactly. it isn't rocket science what sky is doing. simply they act as any serious multi million dollar company/team should

rabo's notorious amateurism has been known for years now. bmc is another example. just money isn't cutting it

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Some riders need the team dictating their every move, some riders don't like that. Rabobank has traditionally had riders like Menchov and Freire who belong to the latter category. I think part of the reason for their new management structure is more direct coaching for the riders, because obviously for the new generation of riders the loose approach doesn't work.

yeah by riders knowing what is best for themselves you mean doping (rasmussen, thomas, menchov surly imo etc). it's very mormal that a rider doesn't know all science about nutrition and training methods. a team and a trainer is to guide a rider in that.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Too bad most riders want out of Katusha as soon as possible.

If AK has improved this year then he's a waste of investment. He's won 2 small races this year.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Who am I denigrating?

Alexander Kristoff isn't having a spectacular year, that's all.

compared to his bmc year, he has but never mind. all I can think of at your pathetic posting is this:

mama!! they are saying bad things about bmc and my favorite rider, rides there. meh, meh...

 

[Kazistuta]

Chuck Norris approves of this thread

Let's get back on topic:

There's almost always more than one factor to a sudden increase or decrease in results. As someone already stated, some riders like a more hands-on approach, while some might prefer the old school self-reliant approach.

You gotta give El Pistolero that riders very rarely gives negative remarks concerning their current team and always go out of the way to speak highly of their future teams. Hard to conclude anything from standard statements like that.

However I'm sure a lot of riders (especially the younger ones) thrive when being closely supervised by managers,trainers etc. - and it's not like the "old school style" riders will have a great disadvantage from that. As long as they're not being forced to use this approach.

 

[Arnout]

Which clients are you talking about anyway? Samuel Sanchez?

You literally always throw back an argument in exactly the same words, aiming to hit the other poster with something (perceived) personal. It's the worst reaction ever, next to you only kids in kindergarten do it when another kids says they're stupid.

Oh, you don't know the doping doctor of Quick Step? I suggest doing a google on him.

 

[El Pistolero]

You literally always throw back an argument in exactly the same words, aiming to hit the other poster with something (perceived) personal. It's the worst reaction ever, next to you only kids in kindergarten do it when another kids says they're stupid.

Oh, you don't know the doping doctor of Quick Step? I suggest doing a google on him.

No it's a stupid argument that had nothing to do with the discussion, so I throw it back at him to show how silly he is for trying to make this personal.

Glad you noticed it.

Every single team has shady doctors or DS(I suggest doing a google on your beloved riders/teams). What's your point? Go to the clinic or get banned.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

No it's a stupid argument that had nothing to do with the discussion, so I throw it back at him to show how silly he is for trying to make this personal.

Glad you noticed it.

Every single team has shady doctors or DS(I suggest doing a google on your beloved riders/teams). What's your point? Go to the clinic or get banned.

when hypocrisy searches for a name. you are it.

 

[williamp78]

Here i was thinking that i was going to read a nice balanced discussion along the lines of nature v nurture.

Letting riders train how they see fit versus organised and structured training.

New school v old school.

An interesting topic, a potentially interesting debate with lots of examples to look too be it individuals (i see gilbert and AK have already been mentioned) or teams (katusha v BMC though surely team sky are the biggest proponents of structured training).

Instead i got to read four pages of ....

What a waste.

 

[TomasC]

Great thread. Remember when Martinelli was upset after Kreuziger cracked in Giro?
“It’s up to him to correct something in his preparations or the way in which he races. There’s something that’s not right.”
I'd think there would be some guidance in training especially in cases like Kreuziger's where you sign supposedly very good GC rider with clear weaknesses which you can work on.
Instead it seems they let him do what he feels and now he is just 'good' Hopefully. It will be interesting to watch what Riis can do in his case. If he, apart from his domestiqueing in grand tour, is able to win short stage races again - that would be a success.

 

[The Hitch]

No it's a stupid argument that had nothing to do with the discussion, so I throw it back at him to show how silly he is for trying to make this personal.

It was a retort to you commically moaning about people mentioning cq in a few threads.

Its funny because you hijack every thread on the forum and try to make them about Gilbert and Boonen, and here you are complaining that someone else did not stick to the subject matter.

But rather than respond - "how much do Boonen and Gilbert pay you to mention them in every thread," i used a bit of imagination, thought - what links Gilbert and Boonen and came up with - Ibraugen clients.

 

[El Pistolero]

Talking about a rider's training method is not hijacking a thread when that's the subject - especially when he belongs to the team the OP is talking about. And spell his name right before you throw in the doping accusations lol.

Me talking about Phil's training method is a lot more interesting than the petty personal insults of some people in this thread which caused it to derail.

Cheers.

Ps: and Ryo, wipe that tchmile of your face. You're not some all knowing cycling guru.

 

[luckyboy]

Potentially interesting thread turns into an argument about Alex Kristoff almost immediately. Great.

 

[burning]

Lol, he got in a large breakaway. His bronze medal isn't really impressive. Plus he rode for the Norwegian team, not for Katusha.

Last year they won the Tour de France, Tirreno-Adriatico, Tour de Romandie and Paris-Tours.

This year they won 2 Giro stages and wore the pink jersey for a few days, they won the white jersey in the Tour de France with 2 people in the top 10 and won 3 Vuelta stages. And now they got second in the WC TTT. They got off to a rocky start, but things are looking good now. Alessandro Ballan, Tejay van Gardenen, Philippe Gilbert and Greg van Avermaet will be ready for the Italian classics and Paris-Tours.

If Phil was Dutch you'd be blaming BMC for his abysmal year, but I'm not like that. It's his own fault.

A bronze medal at olympics is simply better than any of these stuff you mentioned

And If any other team with huge budget (not OPQS obviously) like BMC showed only these results during a year, you'd be bashing that team to death instead of somewhat praising it. BMC had a really bad season and even if they somehow win WC-Emilia-P-T-Lombardia, BMC's season would be still bad

 

[El Pistolero]

A bronze medal at olympics is simply better than any of these stuff you mentioned

And If any other team with huge budget (not OPQS obviously) like BMC showed only these results during a year, you'd be bashing that team to death instead of somewhat praising it. BMC had a really bad season and even if they somehow win WC-Emilia-P-T-Lombardia, BMC's season would be still bad

He won that bronze medal for Norway, not Katusha. While a bronze medal at the Olympics is a nice thing to have, it's not because AK was so good that day that he got it. He got away in a large breakaway involving a lot of second/third and even fourth tier riders. He defeated Phinney in a sprint for the medal, I'm sure he could do that last year as well lol. He's one year older and improved a little, but let's not act like he's on some breakthrough year or anything.

Did I ever say BMC's season was good? A win at the Driedaagse van de Panne and the Tour of Denmark wouldn't have made their season any better though.

I don't care for BMC, so not sure why you think I do. I'm just not blaming BMC because Thor Hushovd, Evans and Gilbert failed this year. They're experienced enough, so you can't blame a certain team for it. That's ridiculous.

A white jersey in the Tour requires much more talent and hard work than a potential bronze medal at the Olympics.

 

[DominicDecoco]

Did I ever say BMC's season was good?

They got off to a rocky start, but things are looking good now

______________

 

[El Pistolero]

______________

Yeah, things are looking good now for the WC and the Italian classics/Paris-Tours with Phil back in shape. And Ballan, TVG and GVA also look sharp at the moment.

What's the problem with what I said?

 

[The Hitch]

At the end of the day, had it been Tom Boonen rather than Alexander Kristoff who made the selection and won the sprint for bronze, we would be hearing a lot less about how the bronze medal was a total accident won through pure luck and no talent, and a lot more about the heroic skill required to make the selection in a long hard 1 day race, and the strentgh, ability to read a race, and sprinting skill, required to outsprint the whole group after 6 hours in the saddle.

 

[El Pistolero]

Yeah, I care so much about second and third places.

Oh wait.