Teejay Van Garderen Clinic Thread

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Wow. Just wow. I had held out some hope that Tejay might be cleans, but that put a dent in it. Why would anyone professing to be clean associate themselves with Armstrong in any way?

Just so dumb and so revealing of the mentality in the sport.
 
Aug 15, 2012
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It's probably not that different. But, selecting who you ride with on your own free time seems like a much more personal decision versus your choice of DS. Team choice is influenced by the core desire to pay the bills.
 
twisted pairs said:
It's probably not that different. But, selecting who you ride with on your own free time seems like a much more personal decision versus your choice of DS. Team choice is influenced by the core desire to pay the bills.
Not to mention that neither Riis nor Vino are currently banned. If I was a clean pro cyclist that would certainly be an important factor in who I ride/train with.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Frome hanging with Levi.. The Bull dog kickin it nor Cal style with Lil Levi and TJ just chillin with the LAnce .. nothing going on here. its all just our twisted little fantasy in the clinic.. i mean really.
I would rather ride with Hinault or Sean Yates myself..
 
Dec 7, 2010
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red_flanders said:
Why would anyone professing to be clean associate themselves with Armstrong in any way?
TJ has proven himself to be rather dense in the past, so maybe he's just dumb, who knows. But this is what gets me: When Armstrong or Leipheimer saddle up next to this "new generation," does ever occur to them, or concern them in the least, that by doing so they only cast a dark shadow over the new guys?

Even if one is willing to accept naivety or idol worship as an excuse for the new comers, how could the implication of "guilt by association" not be enough for the "old generation" to just get on with their own lives and not risk possibly corrupting the image and reputation of the current crop of riders?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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westerner said:
As far as I am concerned most anti doping speak from the new gen riders is for PR purposes. Do they even have much basis for what they are saying, or much training/life experience about ethical vs non ethical behaviors? When they are asked a question with an ethical component most seem to struggle. Look at some quotes from new gen at the Hincappie/Levi fondos for eg. For most of these guys the extent of their education concerns only how to race a bike really well and some media training. Some would have had strong parental influences, but for the most part in their young lives look at the mentors many of these guys have found themselves around. Cycling over much of the past 2 decades has rewarded most those who had no problem to repeatedly cheat and lie convincingly about it. If this troubled you then you left the top ranks of the sport. And these are many of the men who are the teams sr riders or direct at, train and run most of the top teams today. And for those who served a doping ban (or not, but spent years feeling so badly about their cheating) they serve their time and then somehow come back all ethical and reformed? Yeah those guys are the ones to teach the next gen right from wrong. Do feel bad for the situation for young riders who are actually racing clean, what teams really could they race for and not have some connection with someone from cycling's deep dark past?
this is the perfect post. doping which has as its siblings, lying and cheating, is the barrier to entry of the sport.

this line rang out
westerner said:
If this troubled you then you left the top ranks of the sport.
 
Granville57 said:
TJ has proven himself to be rather dense in the past, so maybe he's just dumb, who knows. But this is what gets me: When Armstrong or Leipheimer saddle up next to this "new generation," does ever occur to them, or concern them in the least, that by doing so they only cast a dark shadow over the new guys?

Even if one is willing to accept naivety or idol worship as an excuse for the new comers, how could the implication of "guilt by association" not be enough for the "old generation" to just get on with their own lives and not risk possibly corrupting the image and reputation of the current crop of riders?
It's a very, very good question.

One very simple explanation that would explain it all is that there is no new "clean generation" and it's business as usual, so none of the participants have any qualms about it. That would fit everything we see. It takes some backflips to make the other explanations I've heard fit.

Other thoughts?
 
Dec 7, 2010
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I only just realized that this entire thread is new. I was certain it had been bumped from the past. All this Lance-pacing-TJ stuff was fleshed out weeks ago in the Armstrong thread. So it's not a recent revelation.

Nothing wrong with this discussion (or the thread) though. Just wanted to add the above.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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red_flanders said:
Other thoughts?
If nothing else, it seems to demonstrate the hubris and unapologetic nature of the older doping elite. They didn't give a damn back then about much, and apparently they still don't.
 
Granville57 said:
When Armstrong or Leipheimer saddle up next to this "new generation," does ever occur to them, or concern them in the least, that by doing so they only cast a dark shadow over the new guys?
Nope.

The federation leaders still love them.

Nobody apparently has ever seriously confronted any of them. (maybe)

They've got lots of money.

What is there to feel guilty about?
 
Dec 7, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
Nobody apparently has ever seriously confronted any of them. (maybe)
The new guys, or the old guys?

This is what I wondering. Did anyone in a position of influence to either TJ or Froome inform them that this might not be the best way forward? Especially for someone like Froome who has many times decried the fact that he is often put on the defensive by his doubters?*

How can these associations be helpful or beneficial in any way? And why are both parties usually so eager to share these escapades on social media?


*[Not trying to turn this into a Froome-only thread]
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Netserk said:
Not to mention that neither Riis nor Vino are currently banned. If I was a clean pro cyclist that would certainly be an important factor in who I ride/train with.
is not the talking point "they were all doing it", conceding that they now occupy the positions of the "they were all doing it".

the caveat is the other talking point "it stopped in 2006"

but this caveat has a few meta caveats.

"it stopped in 1999"

"it stopped the year before I Bradley Wigggins won with panache"... aka, the "I... Bradley. the win for all time"
 
Sep 29, 2012
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I met some elite footballers out on a ride once. I think it can be a trap to project your own level of intellect and rational reasoning onto others.

It's possible they are just that unaware, and not asking a handler / team admin re: training with these pariahs.

Plus, as the recent discussion Lance had at the Harvard business school shows (https://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/status/530908439204339712), perhaps his pariahness extends only to anti-doping types?
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Dear Wiggo said:
It's possible they are just that unaware, and not asking a handler / team admin re: training with these pariahs.
If that's the case, I just wonder if, after these toxic tangos go public, anyone within their inner-circle whispers in their ear...
"Dude, WTF is wrong with you?"


Dear Wiggo said:
Plus, as the recent discussion Lance had at the Harvard business school shows (https://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/status/530908439204339712), perhaps his pariahness extends only to anti-doping types?
Some entertaining responses in that tweeter feed. :D
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Granville57 said:
If that's the case, I just wonder if, after these toxic tangos go public, anyone within their inner-circle whispers in their ear...
"Dude, WTF is wrong with you?"
We'll know the answer to this if we ever see another Froome + Levi photo.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Catwhoorg said:
That was pre-RD and ban for Lance and Levi. So probably a little less toxic to be seen with him.

But still, if I were a cyclist, I would have put as much distance between myself and him as possible.
yeah nah yeah

i would prefer that riders ride with riders that share their values and decisions and motives. atleast we know what we are buying.


do you want TJ to dope, but disassociate from LA, just for the optics? The would be BS too.

I think alot want TJ to keep on doping, but dont throw it in our (your) face by NOT disassociating from Lance. Why does one prefer TJ just to disassociate with LAnce, but keep on doing whatever he is doing, but just dont make it so overt with his endorsment of Lance.

Remember when Talansky came out in Armstrong's defense potting Landis and everyone else and supporting LA,

Remember when Wiggo said "I luv him". and then parroted the talking point "did so much for so many".

I would prefer the riders to tell the truth in this instance, because it becomes a pretty clear admission on their ethics, motives, and values.

When we never ever ever really hear most riders speak the truth. Sometimes, the actions speak louder.
 
May 27, 2012
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zlev11 said:
i don't understand how doing a couple of rides with Lance or Leipheimer is any worse than having friggin' Vino or Riis running your team
I have to admit, that's a hard logic to overcome.
 

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