Teejay Van Garderen Clinic Thread

[Granville57]

So WADA and the new penalties that come into effect Jan 1 w/r to anyone working with banned dopers...??
...or am I missing something upthread..

Goes into effect January 1st, 2015

World Anti Doping Agency Director General David Howman has confirmed a new weapon in the fight against doping, namely a rule due to come into existence on January 1 under which penalties will apply to anyone working with banned personnel, with those who have otherwise been found to have engaged in doping-related activities and even with intermediaries who are acting as a go-between between these and athletes.

“We got this new prohibitive association clause coming in,” he said. “With that, from January 1 we will have to notify athletes and others of a list of people that we know are banned or have been criminally convicted in order to ensure that they don’t associate with these characters.

“If athletes do, then they can be sanctioned. It’s quite a big step forward after January 1; I think it’s going to be a big help with banned individuals.”

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/12/david-howman-interview-how-wada-is-continuing-to-knuckle-down-on-doping-in-cycling/

1. I'm curious to see this list.

2. I'm equally curious to see the definition of "associate."

 

[Granville57]

I don't think training with TJ is that big a deal. Yeah, making it public in an interview designed to help reshape the narrative is kinda funny but I can see why TJ might train with him. Regardless of all the crazy stuff lance does know bike racing and TJ still needs to learn.

I could imagine a handful of reasons as to why young riders might be comfortable in the presence of the old brigade. But as I alluded to upthread: Why these patrons of the past are seemingly unconcerned with the optics of it all, especially in how it reflects upon their young apprentices, is what I find more confounding, if not troubling.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Goes into effect January 1st, 2015

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/12/david-howman-interview-how-wada-is-continuing-to-knuckle-down-on-doping-in-cycling/

1. I'm curious to see this list.

2. I'm equally curious to see the definition of "associate."

Here is the actual legalese:

Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, conspiring,
covering up or any other type of intentional complicity
involving an anti-doping rule violation, Attempted
anti-doping rule violation or violation of Article 10.12.1 by
another Person.
2.10 Prohibited Association
Association by an Athlete or other Person subject to the
authority of an Anti-Doping Organization in a professional
or sport-related capacity with any Athlete Support Person
who:
2.10.1 If subject to the authority of an Anti-Doping
Organization, is serving a period of Ineligibility; or
2.10.2 If not subject to the authority of an Anti-Doping
Organization, and where Ineligibility has not been
addressed in a results management process
pursuant to the Code, has been convicted or
found in a criminal, disciplinary or professional
proceeding to have engaged in conduct
which would have constituted a violation of
anti-doping rules if Code-compliant rules had
been applicable to such Person. The disqualifying
status of such Person shall be in force for the
longer of six years from the criminal, professional
or disciplinary decision or the duration of the
criminal, disciplinary or professional sanction
imposed; or
2.10.3 Is serving as a front or intermediary for an
individual described in Article 2.10.1 or 2.10.2
n order for this provision to apply, it is necessary
that the Athlete or other Person has previously
been advised in writing by an Anti-Doping
Organization with jurisdiction over the Athlete or
other Person, or by WADA , of the Athlete Support
Person’s disqualifying status and the potential
Consequence of prohibited association and that
the Athlete or other Person can reasonably avoid
the association. The Anti-Doping Organization
shall also use reasonable efforts to advise the
Athlete Support Person who is the subject of the
notice to the Athlete or other Person that the
Athlete Support Person may, within 15 days, come
forward to the Anti-Doping Organization to explain
that the criteria described in Articles 2.10.1 and
2.10.2 do not apply to him or her. (Notwithstanding
Article 17, this Article applies even when the
Athlete Support Person’s disqualifying conduct
occurred prior to the effective date provided in
Article 25.)
The burden shall be on the Athlete or other
Person to establish that any association with
Athlete Support Personnel described in Article
2.10.1 or 2.10.2 is not in a professional or sportrelated
capacity.
Anti-Doping Organizations that are aware of
Athlete Support Personnel who meet the criteria
described in Article 2.10.1, 2.10.2, or 2.10.3 shall
submit that information to WADA .

I don't think LA could be considered an "Athlete support person." Even if he is, it is a point of contention.

The effectiveness of this new clause relies on who they put on that list, and how they define association (as you said). It's a good word to use, so it includes consulting for training plans. But it is also ambiguous enough to be argued over in a body like the CAS. Is Ferrari's appearance at the Astana camp considered association? It might depend what your/CAS's definition of "is" is......

 

[Granville57]

I don't think LA could be considered an "Athlete support person." Even if he is, it is a point of contention.

The effectiveness of this new clause relies on who they put on that list, and how they define association (as you said). It's a good word to use, so it includes consulting for training plans. But it is also ambiguous enough to be argued over in a body like the CAS. Is Ferrari's appearance at the Astana camp considered association? It might depend what your/CAS's definition of "is" is......

"Athlete support person" is indeed an odd way to word it.

But imagine if someone were seen motor-pacing with Ferrari?
Clearly that would be a violation, even if they tried to argue that it was "only" motor-pacing.

Since Lance is currently serving a lifetime ban, I'm not sure how motor-pacing would be allowed. It's certainly under the category of "training," but is that the same as "athlete support"?

 

[MacRoadie]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

This is where it all breaks down and why nothing will ever change:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...deren-defends-links-to-lance-armstrong-178706

..George Hincapie has a Gran Fondo and a development team, Jonathan Vaughters runs a team. To have that double standard isn’t very fair, so I didn’t think anything of training with Lance.

If you can't see why the differing levels of cheating and manipulation and intimidation scream for different responses, then we might as well just go back to full-genius omerta.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

This is where it all breaks down and why nothing will ever change:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...deren-defends-links-to-lance-armstrong-178706

..George Hincapie has a Gran Fondo and a development team, Jonathan Vaughters runs a team. To have that double standard isn’t very fair, so I didn’t think anything of training with Lance.

If you can't see why the differing levels of cheating and manipulation and intimidation scream for different responses, then we might as well just go back to full-genius omerta.

Do you feel there are degrees of doping? That it isn't black or white == doped / clean?

Which part of the rules outline the penalties for manipulation and intimidation? I have never read them. Can you please point them out?

I think that's what he's getting at.

No doubt this will attract some degree of outrage, but I'm no fan of any cyclist, least of all Lance. I do recognise inconsistency when I see it though.

 

[Benotti69]

I also think what TVG is also saying in between the line is nothing has changed. Bet Vaughters wont like the comparison to Vino

 

[BYOP88]

Re:

I also think what TVG is also saying in between the line is nothing has changed. Bet Vaughters wont like the comparison to Vino

Vaughters wishes he was half the rider Vino was.

 

[MacRoadie]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

This is where it all breaks down and why nothing will ever change:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...deren-defends-links-to-lance-armstrong-178706

..George Hincapie has a Gran Fondo and a development team, Jonathan Vaughters runs a team. To have that double standard isn’t very fair, so I didn’t think anything of training with Lance.

If you can't see why the differing levels of cheating and manipulation and intimidation scream for different responses, then we might as well just go back to full-genius omerta.

Do you feel there are degrees of doping? That it isn't black or white == doped / clean?

Which part of the rules outline the penalties for manipulation and intimidation? I have never read them. Can you please point them out?

I think that's what he's getting at.

No doubt this will attract some degree of outrage, but I'm no fan of any cyclist, least of all Lance. I do recognise inconsistency when I see it though.

Perhaps I should have said "If you can't see the difference between cheating, versus cheating and manipulation and intimidation and why they scream for different social responses, then we might as well just go back to full-genius omerta."

I also said "response", not punishment. This isn't about LA getting a lifetime ban versus the winter vacations the others got, it's about Teejay's apparent lack of concern regarding hanging out, or training with Lance. Cheating is cheating, there are no degrees.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

I also think what TVG is also saying in between the line is nothing has changed. Bet Vaughters wont like the comparison to Vino

Vaughters wishes he was half the rider Vino was.

The 2005 TdF final stage was all the more sweeter when you see Leipheimer get the softest doping sentence ever.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

I also think what TVG is also saying in between the line is nothing has changed. Bet Vaughters wont like the comparison to Vino

Vaughters wishes he was half the rider Vino was.

Probably not if it meant taking half the stuff that Vino took

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

I also think what TVG is also saying in between the line is nothing has changed. Bet Vaughters wont like the comparison to Vino

Vaughters wishes he was half the rider Vino was.

Probably not if it meant taking half the stuff that Vino took

JV did at least that.

 

[carton]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

Cheating is cheating, there are no degrees.

Nope. If your teacher drops a piece of paper and you glance at it as you pick it up and it's the answer key to your exam and you take a beat before turning it over; that's one thing. Bribing the doorman and breaking into her house chloroforming the dog and then photographing the answer key and selling it to your classmates; that's something else altogether. Even if the only codified offense either way as far as the school is concerned is cheating. In a similar vein, running over and killing a jaywalker 1 mph over the limit and running him over and killing him 100 mph over the limit is in certain jurisdictions nominally the same thing and derives the same result, yet it's by near-universal consensus several degrees apart.

I'd add that those who insist on seeing the world as straight lines without considering the angles are rarely better and often worse for a society than those working said angles.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

Cheating is cheating, there are no degrees.

Nope. If your teacher drops a piece of paper and you glance at it as you pick it up and it's the answer key to your exam and you take a beat before turning it over; that's one thing. Bribing the doorman and breaking into her house chloroforming the dog and then photographing the answer key and selling it to your classmates; that's something else altogether. Even if the only codified offense either way as far as the school is concerned is cheating.

You forgot to have the student rape someone and kill a number of a religious group in a gas chamber.

What a ridiculous comparison.

Straight lines angles blah blah blah. How about comparing apples and apples instead of apples and melanomas. Talk about hyperbole strangling an argument.

 

[sniper]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

This is where it all breaks down and why nothing will ever change:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...deren-defends-links-to-lance-armstrong-178706

..George Hincapie has a Gran Fondo and a development team, Jonathan Vaughters runs a team. To have that double standard isn’t very fair, so I didn’t think anything of training with Lance.

If you can't see why the differing levels of cheating and manipulation and intimidation scream for different responses, then we might as well just go back to full-genius omerta.

Do you feel there are degrees of doping? That it isn't black or white == doped / clean?

Which part of the rules outline the penalties for manipulation and intimidation? I have never read them. Can you please point them out?

I think that's what he's getting at.

No doubt this will attract some degree of outrage, but I'm no fan of any cyclist, least of all Lance. I do recognise inconsistency when I see it though.

Perhaps I should have said "If you can't see the difference between cheating, versus cheating and manipulation and intimidation and why they scream for different social responses, then we might as well just go back to full-genius omerta."

I also said "response", not punishment. This isn't about LA getting a lifetime ban versus the winter vacations the others got, it's about Teejay's apparent lack of concern regarding hanging out, or training with Lance. Cheating is cheating, there are no degrees.

so what do you think about hanging out or training with Vaughters?
less concern? less dangerous? less omerta?

i'd personally think the other way around. Very little chance that Lance is now gonna help anybody dope, as it wouldn't bring him any reward.
Vaughters? Dunno. Lots of reward and little risk.

i think it's nail on the head stuff from Teejay.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I also think what TVG is also saying in between the line is nothing has changed. Bet Vaughters wont like the comparison to Vino

Vaughters wishes he was half the rider Vino was.

I would hedge a bet Vaughters wishes he was half the DS Vino is. Caught with a team program and still running a WT team after that. Vaughters can only look on in awe............

 

[Benotti69]

Tejay has lost weight and increased his power by 10 watts.......nothing to see here, move along, this is not the doper we are looking for.........

 

[HiroAntagonist]

Without trying to be cynical, I feel like the ambiguous nature of the wording will leave application of the rule open to interpretation, and most likely selective enforcement. Sort of a fall back when agencies want to send a message.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

Tejay has lost weight and increased his power by 10 watts.......nothing to see here, move along, this is not the doper we are looking for.........

10W doesn't sound like much, but at 400W FTP, that's a 2.5% increase. At the pointy end of a GT field, that's a large increase.

 

[veganrob]

Re: Re:

Tejay has lost weight and increased his power by 10 watts.......nothing to see here, move along, this is not the doper we are looking for.........

10W doesn't sound like much, but at 400W FTP, that's a 2.5% increase. At the pointy end of a GT field, that's a large increase.

That's correct. Riders at that level don't get get 2.5% increases in power. Those kind of increases stopped long ago. Unless there is drugs involved.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Tejay has lost weight and increased his power by 10 watts.......nothing to see here, move along, this is not the doper we are looking for.........

10W doesn't sound like much, but at 400W FTP, that's a 2.5% increase. At the pointy end of a GT field, that's a large increase.

but if you add that, and you lose 10lbs, or about 7% of your bodyweight, then we're talkin'

 

[carton]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

Cheating is cheating, there are no degrees.

Nope. If your teacher drops a piece of paper and you glance at it as you pick it up and it's the answer key to your exam and you take a beat before turning it over; that's one thing. Bribing the doorman and breaking into her house chloroforming the dog and then photographing the answer key and selling it to your classmates; that's something else altogether. Even if the only codified offense either way as far as the school is concerned is cheating.

You forgot to have the student rape someone and kill a number of a religious group in a gas chamber.

What a ridiculous comparison.

Straight lines angles blah blah blah. How about comparing apples and apples instead of apples and melanomas. Talk about hyperbole strangling an argument.

Actually the particulars are only slightly modified from real life events. "Great" lawyers vs. no lawyers and the punishment was the same for both kids. You thought that was implausible, well then: Kid A actually turned himself in.

When people think what Andreu and Armstrong did was exactly the same thing but Lance is a scarlet-lettered scapegoat because "he was more famous" I think of Kid A and Kid B.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

Cheating is cheating, there are no degrees.

Nope. If your teacher drops a piece of paper and you glance at it as you pick it up and it's the answer key to your exam and you take a beat before turning it over; that's one thing. Bribing the doorman and breaking into her house chloroforming the dog and then photographing the answer key and selling it to your classmates; that's something else altogether. Even if the only codified offense either way as far as the school is concerned is cheating.

You forgot to have the student rape someone and kill a number of a religious group in a gas chamber.

What a ridiculous comparison.

Straight lines angles blah blah blah. How about comparing apples and apples instead of apples and melanomas. Talk about hyperbole strangling an argument.

Actually the particulars are only slightly modified from real life events. "Great" lawyers vs. no lawyers and the punishment was the same for both kids. You thought that was implausible, well then: Kid A actually turned himself in.

When people think what Andreu and Armstrong did was exactly the same thing but Lance is a scarlet-lettered scapegoat because "he was more famous" I think of Kid A and Kid B.

Nowhere did I say it was implausible. Stop being obtuse.

In the process of gaining the answers, the Kid broke a number of other laws. No question.

Being nasty is not breaking a law.

Anyone who says otherwise, regardless of how convoluted their irrelevant example is, is being deliberately contrary or has reading comprehension issues.

Lance can only be banned from cycling for doping related crimes. Not being sociopathic, narcissistic or a liar.

 

[nayr497]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

GREAT, make it a new sport with new coaches, owners, riders. I don't give an F if we have to clean house. So what? What a stupid argument. Just clean house already, make a clean break and get on with it. I'm getting to the point of not really caring about the PRO peloton. The doping is going back to horrendous levels, after a very brief change.

Ahhh, poor Tejay, he doesn't want an awkward situation in his hometown. Yes, it would be so difficult.

Considering Lance built his career on top-level doping, what exactly can he learn that goes beyond doping? You can't separate Lance from the drugs.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...deren-defends-links-to-lance-armstrong-178706

..George Hincapie has a Gran Fondo and a development team, Jonathan Vaughters runs a team. To have that double standard isn’t very fair, so I didn’t think anything of training with Lance.

If you can't see why the differing levels of cheating and manipulation and intimidation scream for different responses, then we might as well just go back to full-genius omerta.[/quote]

 

[I Love To Dope]

Re: Teejay Van Garderen

GREAT, make it a new sport with new coaches, owners, riders. I don't give an F if we have to clean house. So what? What a stupid argument. Just clean house already, make a clean break and get on with it. I'm getting to the point of not really caring about the PRO peloton. The doping is going back to horrendous levels, after a very brief change.

Ahhh, poor Tejay, he doesn't want an awkward situation in his hometown. Yes, it would be so difficult.

Considering Lance built his career on top-level doping, what exactly can he learn that goes beyond doping? You can't separate Lance from the drugs.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...deren-defends-links-to-lance-armstrong-178706

..George Hincapie has a Gran Fondo and a development team, Jonathan Vaughters runs a team. To have that double standard isn’t very fair, so I didn’t think anything of training with Lance.

If you can't see why the differing levels of cheating and manipulation and intimidation scream for different responses, then we might as well just go back to full-genius omerta.

[/quote]
Cobsodering Tejay has been a cry baby and has terrible tactics, he could probably learn a lot from the guy who mentally crippled all of his opponents before physically surpassing them on climbs.