Tenerife

[cineteq]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/23/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france

The article above describes Sky's activities on Teide and the Parador Hotel at its summit. It notes that Liquigas and Astana also stay there regularly.

theHog's gonna be sad to find out that the Volcano is the real source of power for Wiggins & Sky. His theory has been debunked.

 

[andy1234]

Which begs the question - when did things change and who led the change?

In that case maybe It was me.
I will be contacting Ferrari for royalties.

Nobody led the change. It was something many if us did informally, with little planning or structure.

Like many things, it just became more refined and professional over the years.

 

[L'arriviste]

Which begs the question - when did things change and who led the change?

That's a really good question and a hard one to answer.

Personally, I can only say what I know about the French and Belgian scenes.

"Foreign legion" guys like Kimmage and (Robert) Millar followed the typical model that the French themselves applied and stilll apply: they lived initially where their clubs were based, then sometimes followed colleagues'/friends' recommendations. Never outside France except in the case of team diktats.

Ditto here in Belgium, really. Self-supporting and -sustaining networks, club cycling and in a few (fortunate) cases, taxation still dictate where folks live and train here.

So, in summary, no(t much) change there.

One of the key factors necessary to dopers is isolation. What Wiggins once described as a monkish lifestyle is in fact just that: cloistering oneself can help with concentration and hide one's current level from rivals, but more importantly, it can keep other sorts of activities nicely hidden.

Why places like this (except for altitude, of course)? Etna and Teide are perfect sites because they provide the ideal conditions for numbers-based testing and training at altitude on fairly quiet roads (no through road at the top), but they also offer the requisite isolation. Except when the Guardian comes around, of course.

The continuing value of this aspect of isolation is perhaps debatable nowadays with the introduction of the bio-passport, whereabouts logging and out-of-competition testing, but the habits are long-established and of course the numbers must still be checked.

Thankfully there are no itinerant paparazzi operating in cycling, otherwise there would be a lot more mobility than we currently have!

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

All change has a starting point and a pioneer, and normally the success of that pioneer is what encourages others to follow in their footsteps. Almost all innovations/developments in cycling are associated with a particular rider or team or event, and very rarely do they ever seem to start with those at the lower reaches of the sport.

That's a really good question and a hard one to answer.

Personally, I can only say what I know about the French and Belgian scenes.

"Foreign legion" guys like Kimmage and (Robert) Millar followed the typical model that the French themselves applied and stilll apply: they lived initially where their clubs were based, then sometimes followed colleagues'/friends' recommendations. Never outside France except in the case of team diktats.

Ditto here in Belgium, really. Self-supporting and -sustaining networks, club cycling and in a few (fortunate) cases, taxation still dictate where folks live and train here.

So, in summary, no(t much) change there.

One of the key factors necessary to dopers is isolation. What Wiggins once described as a monkish lifestyle is in fact just that: cloistering oneself can help with concentration and hide one's current level from rivals, but more importantly, it can keep other sorts of activities nicely hidden.

Etna and Teide are perfect sites because they provide the ideal conditions for numbers-based testing and training at altitude, but they also offer the requisite isolation. Except when the Guardian comes around, of course.

The continuing value of this aspect of isolation is perhaps debatable nowadays with the introduction of the bio-passport, whereabouts logging and out-of-competition testing, but the habits are long-established and of course the numbers must still be checked.

Thankfully there are no itinerant paparazzi operating in cycling, otherwise there would be a lot more mobility than we currently have!

Thanks - although I seem to recall that teams have gone out of their way in recent years post 2006 - Astana, RS, Sky etc to invite the press along to their Tenerife/Etna training camps - almost as a PR move to state 'we have nothing to hide'. (I think the press invite came after LL was shown to have booked himself into the same hotel 'accidentally' as Ferrari).

The emergence of Reynolds and Spanish cycling maybe circa early 1980s?

 

[L'arriviste]

All change has a starting point and a pioneer, and normally the success of that pioneer is what encourages others to follow in their footsteps. Almost all innovations/developments in cycling are associated with a particular rider or team or event, and very rarely do they ever seem to start with those at the lower reaches of the sport.

This. And the corollary that the methods dictate the locations.

 

[thehog]

theHog's gonna be sad to find out that the Volcano is the real source of power for Wiggins & Sky. His theory has been debunked.

Not at all. It proves the point.

I rest my case.

Tenerife alone is suspect but not proof of doping. In combination with all of the elements I mention its proof of a year long doping program.

Sorry to disappoint.

 

[Froome19]

Not at all. It proves the point.

I rest my case.

Tenerife alone is suspect but not proof of doping. In combination with all of the elements I mention its proof of a year long doping program.

Sorry to disappoint.

Just all your other "elements" are not all that great as proofs themselves.
Ok, the only one which is, is the superiority of Sky but the fact is that using that proof as a basis and then working around that we see that what is left is merely that suspicion derived from their performances throughout this year and at the Tour in general. Everything else is a possibility but unlikely.. that for it to even contribute to damn a team as doping is rather wishful and ludicrous.

If we have proof such as eyewitnesses or definite links to Ferrari then you will have the proof you so desperately crave, until then... you have a suspicion which is certainly suspicious but in fact all you have is a suspicion which is valid, but certainly not proof of doping as it can be explained away.

There is always going to be factors such as Tenerife and former dopers which are going to link Sky or in fact any other team with doping, that is what the legacy of Lance and the previous generation have left us with. These proofs are never hard proof and do not show anything even if they are not in isolation. Indeed they could be used as proofs, but they are so tenuous due to the fact that there are so many links to the Lance era still within the peloton, that even considered alongside that valid suspicion of yours they really do not contribute. In effect all they are, are conspiracy theories.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

All change has a starting point and a pioneer, and normally the success of that pioneer is what encourages others to follow in their footsteps. Almost all innovations/developments in cycling are associated with a particular rider or team or event, and very rarely do they ever seem to start with those at the lower reaches of the sport.

Certainly true - but that change could be for a variety of reason.
I am happy to be corrected on this, but generally speaking riders trained (very little) at home, some teams then met in warmer climates within their own country in Jan/Feb. (ie French teams went to Cote d'Azur)
It is difficult to pinpoint when a change came - but I believe it was the advent of big budget properly structured teams like PDM that brought cycling out of the dark ages.
However, IIRC the first person I remember going somewhere exotic was Rominger. He went to places like the US and IIRC even South Africa.

Thanks - although I seem to recall that teams have gone out of their way in recent years post 2006 - Astana, RS, Sky etc to invite the press along to their Tenerife/Etna training camps - almost as a PR move to state 'we have nothing to hide'. (I think the press invite came after LL was shown to have booked himself into the same hotel 'accidentally' as Ferrari).

The emergence of Reynolds and Spanish cycling maybe circa early 1980s?

 

[thehog]

Just all your other "elements" are not all that great as proofs themselves.
Ok, the only one which is, is the superiority of Sky but the fact is that using that proof as a basis and then working around that we see that what is left is merely that suspicion derived from their performances throughout this year and at the Tour in general. Everything else is a possibility but unlikely.. that for it to even contribute to damn a team as doping is rather wishful and ludicrous.

If we have proof such as eyewitnesses or definite links to Ferrari then you will have the proof you so desperately crave, until then... you have a suspicion which is certainly suspicious but in fact all you have is a suspicion which is valid, but certainly not proof of doping as it can be explained away.

There is always going to be factors such as Tenerife and former dopers which are going to link Sky or in fact any other team with doping, that is what the legacy of Lance and the previous generation have left us with. These proofs are never hard proof and do not show anything even if they are not in isolation. Indeed they could be used as proofs, but they are so tenuous due to the fact that there are so many links to the Lance era still within the peloton, that even considered alongside that valid suspicion of yours they really do not contribute. In effect all they are, are conspiracy theories.

You need to watch more court room TV.

Do you think the law looks for "absolute proof" in isolation?

Not at all. A case is built on several facts and portions of evidence.

You hold the position that Sky is clean so anything you look at you bend it as fact that Sky are clean. You wouldn't be selected for a jury because you're biased.

Besides you're trying to disprove the Ferrari connect not that Sky don't dope.

You've lost sight of what you want out of this.

I'll restate. This is not about me. Its about Sky and doping.

If you think they're clean then good. I'm not going to burst your bubble its ok. Sky are clean. No positives.

I'm entitled to my opinion. I will not be censored.

 

[Froome19]

You need to watch more court room TV.


Do you think the law looks for "absolute proof" in isolation?

Not at all. A case is built on several facts and portions of evidence.

I do not know where I claimed such a thing...

You hold the position that Sky is clean so anything you look at you bend it as fact that Sky are clean. You wouldn't be selected for a jury because you're biased.

Besides you're trying to disprove the Ferrari connect not that Sky don't dope.

You've lost sight of what you want out of this.

I'll restate. This is not about me. Its about Sky and doping.

What we are attempting is trying to figure out is whether there is substantial proof to condemn them with as little bias as possible when debating it. So far you have not attempted to prove whatsoever that you have proof to back up your claims. You go through the same claims time and time again and the defining factor is that they are suspicious, but if I claimed that everything I found suspicious was proof of doping then.. You say that you have peripheral proofs which along with your main suspicion highlight Sky are doping, we have proven that these proofs are very flimsy when push comes to shove..

Yes I support Sky, as they were a dream come true for British cycling when they first burst on to the scene and so yes I am biased towards them. But personally I would like to think that if I saw good proof that Sky are doping I would believe it. I have been very critical of Sky in the past, they certainly say a lot of garbage. Wiggins imo is arrogant, not a great guy and pretty strange. Their PR is awful. Their style is awfully boring.. but I just do not see the proof when it comes to them doping.

If you think they're clean then good. I'm not going to burst your bubble its ok. Sky are clean. No positives.

Seriously can you really stop reffering back to these points when they are totally irelevant to the point you are trying to make? You attempt to be disparaging by bringing up this positive thing, but no one here has ever claimed that a lack of positives would ensure that teams are not considering to having doped.

I'm entitled to my opinion. I will not be censored.

What is this about your view being censored. This is a debate, people are allowed to have their opposing opinions, no one has ever claimed otherwise.

 

[mountainrman]

I saw groups of good riders training there in the mid nineties, but like lanzarote the roads were not good and suffer damage frim heat and wear.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I saw groups of good riders training there in the mid nineties, but like lanzarote the roads were not good and suffer damage frim heat and wear.

Was that before or after you got cancer, or before or after Eddy Merckx introduced you to Ferrari?

 

[Velodude]

theHog's gonna be sad to find out that the Volcano is the real source of power for Wiggins & Sky. His theory has been debunked.

If some Italian teams use active volcano Mt. Etna (also the Giro) there are grounds for suspicion that volcanoes may provide some magic elixir.

BTW, the volcano on Tenerife is the cause of concern for the eastern seaboard of the USA.

Geologists predict if there is a volcano flank collapse it will cause a massive landslide westwards to the sea creating a huge tsunami.

 

[Mellow Velo]

There you go. To be honest I was more interested in the history of Tenerife and I didn't remember it being discussed before.

Me too, that's why I asked about viable alternatives.

The thing for me is why go to Tenerife, when Fuentes and almost all the dodgy doctors inhabit Gran Canaria?
Gran Canaria ticks all the same boxes, plus that extra special one.
The only thing it lacks is a plateau, (Teide) above 2000 metres.
Plenty of mountainous roads though.

The EPO-altitude theory is interesting, but then you have the German track sprint team being sent to Colorado, just prior to the Olympics.
GB have also consider Colorado for Summer training.

The Hog now advocating Tenerife as a cheap training destination made me smile.
Yesterday, it was why go there when there are all those snowbound European mountain ranges.

 

[Descender]

What exactly was wrong with the previous Tenerife thread?

That would be my question as well.

 

[thehog]

The Hog now advocating Tenerife as a cheap training destination made me smile.
Yesterday, it was why go there when there are all those snowbound European mountain ranges.

Are you watching me? I know you don't like me thus the reason you try to hunt me down rather than respond to the message.

I did not advocate it as cheap. I merely responding to Froome19 who said it was out of the price range of many ProTour teams.

Nice try but no cigar.

 

[oldcrank]

Me too, that's why I asked about viable alternatives.

The thing for me is why go to Tenerife, when Fuentes and almost all the dodgy doctors inhabit Gran Canaria?
Gran Canaria ticks all the same boxes, plus that extra special one.

FabCon owns property on Gran Canaria doesn't he?

 

[thehog]

Are you watching me? I know you don't like me thus the reason you try to hunt me down rather than respond to the message.

I did not advocate it as cheap. I merely responding to Froome19 who said it was out of the price range of many ProTour teams.

Nice try but no cigar.

I note a lot of anger on this topic. A lot appears to be directed at me personally. The price of being controversial but right.

I think someone should ask JV for his opinion on this popular training venue.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Are you watching me? I know you don't like me thus the reason you try to hunt me down rather than respond to the message.

I did not advocate it as cheap. I merely responding to Froome19 who said it was out of the price range of many ProTour teams.

Nice try but no cigar.

Pardon me for actually reading the thread and some of your posts.
Today, you were right.
As a winter destination, Tenerife is about as cheap as it gets for guaranteed weather.
It's actually cheaper to fly to, out of season, than Mallorca, for instance.
Mucho charter flights.

Anyhow, some interesting bits and bobs:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2012/jun/15/tenerife-workout-holiday-boxing

http://www.tkogymtenerife.com/nav/high-altitude-training-camp

http://www.tenerife-training.net/Cycling-Tenerife/Bike-Bicycle-Information/Cycling-Tenerife.php

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I note a lot of anger on this topic. A lot appears to be directed at me personally. The price of being controversial but right.

I think someone should ask JV for his opinion on this popular training venue.

Why ask JV when you apparently went there?
So, why did you go there? Was it expensive or very cheap - its hard to keep up with your conflicting theories.

 

[thehog]

Pardon me for actually reading the thread and some of your posts.
Today, you were right.
As a winter destination, Tenerife is about as cheap as it gets for guaranteed weather.
It's actually cheaper to fly to, out of season, than Mallorca, for instance.
Mucho charter flights.

Anyhow, some interesting bits and bobs:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2012/jun/15/tenerife-workout-holiday-boxing

http://www.tkogymtenerife.com/nav/high-altitude-training-camp

http://www.tenerife-training.net/Cycling-Tenerife/Bike-Bicycle-Information/Cycling-Tenerife.php

Cheers thanks. Keep up the excellent work.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Me too, that's why I asked about viable alternatives.

The thing for me is why go to Tenerife, when Fuentes and almost all the dodgy doctors inhabit Gran Canaria?
Gran Canaria ticks all the same boxes, plus that extra special one.
The only thing it lacks is a plateau, (Teide) above 2000 metres.
Plenty of mountainous roads though.

The EPO-altitude theory is interesting, but then you have the German track sprint team being sent to Colorado, just prior to the Olympics.
GB have also consider Colorado for Summer training.

The Hog now advocating Tenerife as a cheap training destination made me smile.
Yesterday, it was why go there when there are all those snowbound European mountain ranges.

And we don't seem to have got very far on finding out when Tenerife and warm weather winter training in general came into fashion, and when it was identified as a good location for doping.

Regarding Fuentes - is there any evidence relating to him and Tenerife? I was always under the impression that Tenerife was short hand for Ferrari doping camp.

 

[Mellow Velo]

And we don't seem to have got very far on finding out when Tenerife and warm weather winter training in general came into fashion, and when it was identified as a good location for doping.

Regarding Fuentes - is there any evidence relating to him and Tenerife? I was always under the impression that Tenerife was short hand for Ferrari doping camp.

I have been searching, (hence the other stuff) but so far nothing on who were the early pro trail blazers.

Ferrari, without question.
As for Fuentes, no, GC. I remembered this:

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6...vestigation-in-Gran-Canaria-and-Tenerife.aspx

Same time as Bertie's bust.

Begs the question are there camps on his Island.
This article suggests GC also in use, but by who??

 

[TheGame]

Tenerife and Majorca have been THE training camp destinations for pros and amateurs for as long as I can remember.

I have been to training camps on both islands dozens of times, before and after the EPO era

Not to say it doesn't see its share of suspect action, but it didn't become popular because of it.

Mallorca is the main British Cycling base. They book a hotel from November all the way through to February for Team Sky but also the whole of British Cycling. Tenerife has better climbing options and slightly higher, and with equipment already on Mallorca its fairly easy to get things over to Tenerife for the guys who want tougher training. Then they use Tenerife the rest of the year.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I have been searching, (hence the other stuff) but so far nothing on who were the early pro trail blazers.

Ferrari, without question.
As for Fuentes, no, GC. I remembered this:

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6...vestigation-in-Gran-Canaria-and-Tenerife.aspx

Same time as Bertie's bust.

Begs the question are there camps on his Island.
This article suggests GC also in use, but by who??

With Fuentes, isn't his move to GC a recent thing? I thought at the time of OP he was working out of Madrid (although I've also seen Majorca also listed).

My assumption is that Ferrari switched to working in Tenerife after there was too much police attention in Italy. (Although obviously he was still working out of Italy but for those who wanted an even lower profile).

Do we know from the USADA evidence when USP/Motorola started going to Tenerife to meet with Ferrari?