Tennis is ridiculous

[Sciocco]

i don'T agree.
there clearly are degrees of skill. if you take the top three, rafa's on the left, djoker in themiddle, and federer on the far right hand side of an imaginary skill-continuum.
that's not saying rafa and or djoker are unskilled.
that's merely saying they are less skilled than some others.

Huge differences in style too, Federer depends on his skill. Nadal and Djokovic depend on their ability to keep hitting from baseline to baseline, to keep running and hitting those balls with enormous power - so their endurance.

Now which would be more influenced by steroid/dope (ab)use? Skill or Endurance?

I would agree with your opinion about Roger and Rafa in terms of how Roger relies on skill, and Rafa grinds.

For Djoker, he has a great forehand down the line, a great forehand cross court, a great backhand down the line, a great backhand across court, best return on the tour, and can serve well. He just also happens to be able to grind it out, not as good as Rafa, but still pretty good. How does he beat Rafa (now 7 times in a row)? He returns Rafa's serve to the point of causing Rafa to give up free points, and he continually hits to Rafa's backhand because that is his weaker side.

I cannot argue with endurance/grind players being more like to abuse, and I think Rafa could fall into that category. I just would not put Djoko in there with him.



Rafa has had injuries in his time, how does that play into the possibility of drug abuse?

 

[The Hitch]

If you don't think Federer/Nadal/Djokovic are skilled at what they do you're just about the dumbest person on this forum.

edit: some of you cretins should go down to a club and watch junior tennis. Kids absolutely crush the ball today; swing mechanics have changed dramatically in the past 15 years. I've been embarrassed by teenage girls playing tennis; they hit the ball with more power and precision than I ever could. No shame in that, they were just taught better. Not everything in life is simply because of dope.

You sound like someone who has never heard the arguments against your position.

The argument that tennis players dope isn't merely a bunch of tin foil hat geeks on the internet trying to explain everything as doping

There's the Aggasi confession.
There's Operation Puerto which on its own proves doping in tennis.
There's people like Mcenroe saying Steroids are in the game 20 years ago, There's the very lax controlls compared to cycling.
There's Rusedski getting caught saying doping is rife, then going back on his word in order to land commentary positions,
There is Nadal fighting dirty (insulting our sport in the proccess) against whereabouts controls which athletes that earn half as much a year as he gets in a day, have to live with their whole careers.

And much much more.

So be careful before you go round accusing others of being totally ignorant and acting as if you are the sole authority on tennis.

But the point i wanted to make is that comments like this

Oh wait, not according to the mouth breathing troglodytes on this forum. Get a life.

some of you cretins should go down to a club and watch junior tennis.

are just not on.

Read the rules - http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=14952

before you make comments like that with insults, and generalizations.

 

[The Hitch]

Huge differences in style too, Federer depends on his skill. Nadal and Djokovic depend on their ability to keep hitting from baseline to baseline, to keep running and hitting those balls with enormous power - so their endurance.

Now which would be more influenced by steroid/dope (ab)use? Skill or Endurance?

Well lets not forget that doping can have a big mental effect too. Chess players have doped. And also better endurance allows better use of skill.

Then there's injury prevention too.

And Federer also has incredible Endurance.

He allegedly trains so much more than everyone else (though this exact wording is also used at different times to explain why Djoker and Nadal are so much better than everyone else too, so I dont know which of them really does train more than everyone else).

But hes gone something like qf in 30 straight grand slams. Hes only the 7th player to play 1000 matches so hes played a lot more than everyone else around, and doing the schedules he does, eg Monte Carlo Rome Madrid Rolland Garros Halle Wimbledon, then hard court season and US Open, without a sweat is ****ing impressive.

=

Rafa has had injuries in his time, how does that play into the possibility of drug abuse?

IN baseball steroids were mainly used for injury prevention. I hear they are used for similar purposes in WWE, and in football there was an article 8 years ago in the Giuardian about chelsea using a blood filtration machine, and injury lenghs have gone down in recent decades.

But mainly the baseball thing.
Doping is used for injury prevention.

Though the other reverse point is that some speculate that Nadals doping to maintian the physical game may cause the knee problems though I can't comment on that.

 

[Sciocco]

Well lets not forget that doping can have a big mental effect too. Chess players have doped. And also better endurance allows better use of skill.

Then there's injury prevention too.

And Federer also has incredible Endurance.

He allegedly trains so much more than everyone else (though this exact wording is also used at different times to explain why Djoker and Nadal are so much better than everyone else too, so I dont know which of them really does train more than everyone else).

But hes gone something like qf in 30 straight grand slams. Hes only the 7th player to play 1000 matches so hes played a lot more than everyone else around, and doing the schedules he does, eg Monte Carlo Rome Madrid Rolland Garros Halle Wimbledon, then hard court season and US Open, without a sweat is ****ing impressive.

It is hard to tell who trains the most, I heard Nadal was not taking a day off from the end of Aussie Open to beginning of his next tournament (early March).

There is a big discrepancy in skills between top ranked players and lower ranked players, so Federer (as well as other top ranked players) generally has an easy time until at least the 4th round.

He went pro in 1998, so factor in 98 and 99 as short years, since 2000 he has had 11 full seasons. 1000/11 = 90.9091 matches per year, factor in the beginning seasons and it becomes even lower.

Federer has in recent years, as he has gotten older, be known to skip tournaments, such as Monte Carlo in 2010 and Halle in 2009 and 2011. He also does not always go that far in the clay masters tournaments, 2nd, 3rd, qf losses all in the past couple years. In between the end of Wimbledon and the North American tournaments leading up to the U.S. Open there are 5 weeks in which Federer is not competing. He also has been skipping the hard court tournaments after the U.S. open that take place in Asia in recent years.

Recently, I have noticed he has been either winning quickly or losing quickly, the crazy long matches seem to be out the window.

Roger also has had his injuries and sicknesses, but instead of pushing himself through those injuries he rests and trains, not to mention a much less punishing strategy he uses on the court compared to others. Nadal has done the opposite which is why he has hurt his knees, ankles, shoulders.

IN baseball steroids were mainly used for injury prevention. I hear they are used for similar purposes in WWE, and in football there was an article 8 years ago in the Giuardian about chelsea using a blood filtration machine, and injury lenghs have gone down in recent decades.

But mainly the baseball thing.
Doping is used for injury prevention.

Though the other reverse point is that some speculate that Nadals doping to maintian the physical game may cause the knee problems though I can't comment on that.

Of the top 3 the easiest one that I could be convinced is doping would be Nadal, simply based on his grinding style coupled with the ability to keep up the grinding style over long periods of time.



I think it would be more embarrassing to dope as a chess player than someone who performs a truly exhaustive sport (tennis, cycling). Not arguing it, just..

 

[Sciocco]

There is Nadal fighting dirty (insulting our sport in the proccess) against whereabouts controls which athletes that earn half as much a year as he gets in a day, have to live with their whole careers.

Not trying to argue this in anyway, but I have heard about such things, is there any hard evidence? Interviews or press conference or something? Simply interested.

 

[The Hitch]

Not trying to argue this in anyway, but I have heard about such things, is there any hard evidence? Interviews or press conference or something? Simply interested.

You mean about Nadal fighting anti doping?

Lets just say that if Nadal devoted half the energy to defeating Djokovic as he does to defeating the whereabouts system, he wouldn't be 6 in 0

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/8353208.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...d-Rafael-Nadal-slam-anti-doping-protocol.html

http://www.sport24.co.za/Tennis/Nadal-slams-dope-controls-20111201

 

[The Hitch]

BTW here is a very very interesting comment from Nadal.

He doesnt go to the Gym much.

His muscles are purely natural or something.

I hate the gym.
I don’t spend much time in there and I never have done – I just don’t see why. I only ever run when there’s some point to it – say, if it’s in a game of tennis. I do a lot of aerobics in the pre-season period, but after that I keep fit by playing in tournaments. I also love playing football – my preferred position is striker. I can’t play as often as I’d like because of the injury risks.

source
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mos...l-talks-fashion-avoids-gym.html#ixzz0LhjxHgW6

 

[Sciocco]

You mean about Nadal fighting anti doping?

Lets just say that if Nadal devoted half the energy to defeating Djokovic as he does to defeating the whereabouts system, he wouldn't be 6 in 0

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/8353208.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...d-Rafael-Nadal-slam-anti-doping-protocol.html

http://www.sport24.co.za/Tennis/Nadal-slams-dope-controls-20111201

Thanks for the links (your next post as well), some interesting things. I admit I wish I knew more about the testing procedure.

Generally when Nadal is referenced to his practice it seems like they tend to talk about the practice courts instead of the gym, wish I had natural physique 1/1000 him, ha.

 

[42x16ss]

Shemantha lost in the first round of this year's us open though.
so apparently it's not all about the steroids.

Sam Stosur WON the US open. She was knocked out early in the Aus Open

 

[sniper]

Sam Stosur WON the US open. She was knocked out early in the Aus Open

true, tanx for fixing that.

 

[sniper]

So, to sum up: Tennis IS ridiculous. It's a farce. So much money involved, so little serious testing. So many suspect performances and over-muscled women. All logic suggests that the sport is drained with doping at the top.

But evidence from police investigations suggests cycling is still dirtier than tennis. Hardly ever do we hear of tennis players being involved when one or the other doping ring is busted (of course, barring puerto.)
I assume police investigations would give quite a decent average overview of which sports are most rotten.
I think cyclists, track and fielders, and other more classical endurance athletes are among the athletes most often involved in busted doping rings.
In any case, tennis players are generally lacking when rings are busted, which puzzles me, because I do think tennis at the top is rotten to the core.

EDIT: one reason might be that, owing to the much more solid testing regime in cycling, cyclists who want to dope need to take recourse to the illegal, criminal circuit much more than, say, tennis players need to.
Or is it that police investigations are also biased towards endurance athletes?

 

[Sciocco]

I think cyclists, track and fielders, and other more classical endurance athletes are among the athletes most often involved in busted doping rings.

I would like to see serious testing in NFL and NCAA Football. I think it might be astounding.

 

[Benotti69]

S

EDIT: one reason might be that, owing to the much more solid testing regime in cycling, cyclists who want to dope need to take recourse to the illegal, criminal circuit much more than, say, tennis players need to.

I am inclined to agree, it is the criminal element that attracts the police to the sport.

 

[The Hitch]

But evidence from police investigations suggests cycling is still dirtier than tennis. Hardly ever do we hear of tennis players being involved when one or the other doping ring is busted (of course, barring puerto.)
I assume police investigations would give quite a decent average overview of which sports are most.

But evidence from police investigations suggests small time cyclists are still dirtier than top cyclists. Hardly ever do we hear of top cyclists being involved when one or the other doping ring is busted (of course, barring puerto.)
I assume police investigations would give quite a decent average overview of which sports are most.

Change tennis for top cyclists and you get a similar conclusion. top cyclists like contador dope less than amateur riders and small time pros.

Do you stick by that or only the one that dumps on cycling?

i hope that demonstrates that taking such a small factor with so many variables to make such a big conclusion, doesn't work.
tennis doesn't get caught up in cycling investigations because those investigations are based around cycling. simple.
just like investigation into local street gangs don't end up exposing corrupt politicians. but under your logic we can conclude that there are no corrupt politicians because the street investigations don't find them.

Tennis is a protected sport. no outsider would ever there make accusations against it and no police are going to investigate it

 

[sniper]

But evidence from police investigations suggests small time cyclists are still dirtier than top cyclists. Hardly ever do we hear of top cyclists being involved when one or the other doping ring is busted (of course, barring puerto.)
I assume police investigations would give quite a decent average overview of which sports are most.

Change tennis for top cyclists and you get a similar conclusion. top cyclists like contador dope less than amateur riders and small time pros.

Do you stick by that or only the one that dumps on cycling?

i hope that demonstrates that taking such a small factor with so many variables to make such a big conclusion, doesn't work.
tennis doesn't get caught up in cycling investigations because those investigations are based around cycling. simple.
just like investigation into local street gangs don't end up exposing corrupt politicians. but under your logic we can conclude that there are no corrupt politicians because the street investigations don't find them.

Tennis is a protected sport. no outsider would ever there make accusations against it and no police are going to investigate it

I was merely portraying the superficial picture that is provided by most recent doping-ring-busts and trying to understand why we never hear of tennis players being involved, even though I am convinced that tennis is as dirty, if not dirtier, than cycling.
But I agree with your commentary, and I like the parallel with politicians. Indeed, the big fish never get caught.

 

[The Hitch]

I was merely portraying the superficial picture that is provided by most recent doping-ring-busts and trying to understand why we never hear of tennis players being involved, even though I am convinced that tennis is as dirty, if not dirtier, than cycling.
But I agree with your commentary, and I like the parallel with politicians. Indeed, the big fish never get caught.

I thought you were arguing that tennis is cleaner than cycling . sorry if i misunderstood.

 

[sniper]

regardless how much money they already have, enough is never enough for most of these guys.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/02022012/58/nadal-moves-quash-tax-reports.html

 

[Andynonomous]

Nadal's hardcourt/grasscourt finals made June 2010-present:
Grand Slams: 5 of 6 (83.3%)
All other tournaments: 5 of 17 (29.4%)

Nadal's match winning % in hardcourt/grasscourt matches, June 2010-present
Grand Slams: 36-4 (90%)
All other tournaments: 47-17(73.4%)

Nadal's hard/grass h2h record vs Federer and Murray, June 2010-present
Grand Slams: 4-0
other tournaments: 2-4



Off of clay Nadal has a dramatically better record, at the most prestigous (grand slams) tournaments, than he does at other less prestigous tournaments.

Does it remind you of any cyclist who could win the TDF, year after year, but did little before, or after ?

How can he manage his peak like this, year after year ?

 

[sniper]

Nadal's hardcourt/grasscourt finals made June 2010-present:
Grand Slams: 5 of 6 (83.3%)
All other tournaments: 5 of 17 (29.4%)

Nadal's match winning % in hardcourt/grasscourt matches, June 2010-present
Grand Slams: 36-4 (90%)
All other tournaments: 47-17(73.4%)

Nadal's hard/grass h2h record vs Federer and Murray, June 2010-present
Grand Slams: 4-0
other tournaments: 2-4



Off of clay Nadal has a dramatically better record, at the most prestigous (grand slams) tournaments, than he does at other less prestigous tournaments.

Does it remind you of any cyclist who could win the TDF, year after year, but did little before, or after ?

How can he manage his peak like this, year after year ?

nice stats. well, one could perhaps counterargue that his (clean) trainingschedule is organized such that it allows him to peak at the bigger tournaments.
But like you, I also doubt very much that one is able to peak like he does without proper pharmaceutical help.

Anyway, it has just become public that Nadal is a major tax-dodger (surprise surprise). (see my previous post)
So we know he cheats massively in that domain of life. Only the most naive would believe he doesn't cheat in any other domains of life...

 

[DirtyWorks]

Djokovic's Regime

I came on this accidentally. Reads like Armstrong 'research.' http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...c-way-it-is-as-hard-as-it-sounds-6297285.html

Djokovic accidentally discovers he has celiac disease? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeliac_disease

And then attributes being able to complete events longer than 2 hours with a day's recovering to using a machine.

It makes no sense.

 

[sniper]

I came on this accidentally. Reads like Armstrong 'research.' http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...c-way-it-is-as-hard-as-it-sounds-6297285.html

yep...nice 'critical' piece...

nothing to see here, folks, just move along..

 

[Paco_P]

I would like to see serious testing in NFL and NCAA Football. I think it might be astounding.

Only to someone who has never played American football in an organized context.

Those of us who have had to block 140 kg high school defensive linemen would not be astounded.

 

[frenchfry]

regardless how much money they already have, enough is never enough for most of these guys.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/02022012/58/nadal-moves-quash-tax-reports.html

Most French athletes (tennis players, cyclists, etc.) have fiscal residences in Switzerland or other tax havens, as do actors, musicians and even many corporate leaders.

What really gets me is when they come to Paris to demonstrate for more government handouts for the welfare class.

 

[euanli]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012...urce=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=255506

Now I wonder what they will be suing them for exactly and where.

 

[doolols]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012...urce=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=255506

The sketch from the show "Les Guignols," or "The Puppets," shows a life-size likeness of Nadal filling up his car's gas tank from his own bladder before being pulled over by traffic police for speeding.

Now that's hilarious. Bring back Spitting Image.