Tennis

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Jun 21, 2015
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lenric said:
A great philosopher once told me: when you're great, small and envious minds will create all kind of rumours about you to undermine you success.
Indeed...... ;)
I’ll say to the people who don’t believe {}, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Mr.White said:
blackcat said:
arcus said:
Murray's statements were hard core, and went further than the other leading men have. He's implying that he's been playing (and maybe losing to) dopers at the highest levels of the sport...

He specifically mentioned 6 hour matches.. How many high profile 6 hour matches have we had in tennis???? Answer = very few. Is he thinking about Djokovic / Nadal ?

http://www.therichest.com/sports/tennis-sports/top-10-longest-tennis-matches-of-all-time/?view=all
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_tennis_match_records
thats because he was losing to dopers, and he knows he was equal the player to nole djokovic all thru juniors and to rafa nadal even tho he is two years under nadals age.

but then murray started hardcore doping to win wimbledon cost he was sick and tired of losing to the full genius dopers. I think they accept some, but not the full genius ones. So when would have Murray started? Sometimes when he came to the realisation that he was losing to the hardcore dopers when he was 21ish, then he upp-ed his program when he realised he was losing to the full genius dopers Nadal and Joker and he NEEDED to win Wimbledon, so he upped it to hardcore. Then he backed off a tad.

just intuition folkx, no evidence
He was never an equal player to Rafa Nadal.
cos Rafa took a year out at 15 and doped to adult physicality and turned pro at 16. See the literature on Rafa.

What, Murray is 2 years younger than Rafa? But Rafa had Uncle Toni and Uncle Toni had his on a steroid diet from 15, so Murray would be playing the 13 yo tourneys in Europe.

I am giving Andy M a major wide berth, and saying, he might have done a little, until he started being top10 winning tourneys, then he even raised his game in his ambition to win Wimbledon he went full genius. FULL genius

So he was always lagging the dope fuelled full genius Rafa
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Red Rick said:
How do you know what Nadal was like before PEDs? Dunno if it was here or on a tennis board, but I've heard stories that he stopped playing juniors when he was like 16, so he could juice up and bulk up and go straight to the men's Tour
easy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzKuv4j67aw
look at the class of Richard Gasquet before they were adolescents.

Gasquet had class. Rafa had to develop the body of an Olympic decathlete athlete with the intensity of Manny Pacquiao to become the tennis player.

And before Rafa, Gasquet was the youngest ever to top100. I think Chang broke thru to a top10 tho, and won the French at 16 too. And Becker won Wimbledon at 17. But have to be deluded to think Chang and Becker were not on roids too.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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the delgados said:
"He gets tested a lot!"
These guys need to hire PR pros to help them refine the message.
Becker was clean though.
Burst on the scene as a 16 year old. Very consistent player after that.
Three times wimbledon champ.
I saw him play, and there just wasn't anything suspicious about his performances.
Tellingly, his carreer went downhill when EPO became widespread in tennis in the mid-90s.
And people in the know (his former coach, doctor, etc.) all say he was clean. Why would they lie about that?

:eek:
 
Aug 31, 2012
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blackcat said:
Red Rick said:
How do you know what Nadal was like before PEDs? Dunno if it was here or on a tennis board, but I've heard stories that he stopped playing juniors when he was like 16, so he could juice up and bulk up and go straight to the men's Tour
easy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzKuv4j67aw
look at the class of Richard Gasquet before they were adolescents.

Gasquet had class. Rafa had to develop the body of an Olympic decathlete athlete with the intensity of Manny Pacquiao to become the tennis player.

And before Rafa, Gasquet was the youngest ever to top100. I think Chang broke thru to a top10 tho, and won the French at 16 too. And Becker won Wimbledon at 17. But have to be deluded to think Chang and Becker were not on roids too.
There's no one to one mapping between a narrowly defined talent rank and performance rank in any sport, though, even without doping. Doping is just another variable other than innate talent* that affects performance.

*though it adds a further dimension to talent, in that there is a variation to how much one can get out of doping everything else equal
 
Mar 13, 2009
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sniper said:
the delgados said:
"He gets tested a lot!"
These guys need to hire PR pros to help them refine the message.
Becker was clean though.
Burst on the scene as a 16 year old. Very consistent player after that.
Three times wimbledon champ.
I saw him play, and there just wasn't anything suspicious about his performances.
Tellingly, his carreer went downhill when EPO became widespread in tennis in the mid-90s.
And people in the know (his former coach, doctor, etc.) all say he was clean. Why would they lie about that?

:eek:
bull$hit becker was clean. They would have had him on roids since he was 15
 
Mar 13, 2009
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SeriousSam said:
There's no one to one mapping between a narrowly defined talent rank and performance rank in any sport, though, even without doping. Doping is just another variable other than innate talent* that affects performance.

*though it adds a further dimension to talent, in that there is a variation to how much one can get out of doping everything else equal
if you have the mentality and psychology to play with 'intensity' * then, the PEDs can be an exponential multiplier, like quantum computing.


*ok, so you want a definition of intensity. I must use something pretty unscientific here, like "that is the p0rn rule, I know it when i see it, and know when i like it, and know when the priapus points magnetic north"

lets just use Nadal and Dojker deep in the 5th set and on their knees and ten shot rallies ok?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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blackcat said:
sniper said:
the delgados said:
"He gets tested a lot!"
These guys need to hire PR pros to help them refine the message.
Becker was clean though.
Burst on the scene as a 16 year old. Very consistent player after that.
Three times wimbledon champ.
I saw him play, and there just wasn't anything suspicious about his performances.
Tellingly, his carreer went downhill when EPO became widespread in tennis in the mid-90s.
And people in the know (his former coach, doctor, etc.) all say he was clean. Why would they lie about that?

:eek:
bull$hit becker was clean. They would have had him on roids since he was 15
impossibru!
 
Jun 16, 2015
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sniper said:
the delgados said:
"He gets tested a lot!"
These guys need to hire PR pros to help them refine the message.
Becker was clean though.
Burst on the scene as a 16 year old. Very consistent player after that.
Three times wimbledon champ.
I saw him play, and there just wasn't anything suspicious about his performances.
Tellingly, his carreer went downhill when EPO became widespread in tennis in the mid-90s.
And people in the know (his former coach, doctor, etc.) all say he was clean. Why would they lie about that?

:eek:
What, with money-driven Tiriac as manager and the occultic Müller-Wohlhart as "injury specialist"?

Becker's own remarks while a player are quite telling:-

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eZZMCQAAQBAJ&pg=PT269&lpg=PT269&dq=boris+becker+hans-wilhelm+mueller-wohlfahrt&source=bl&ots=qrStJwBFpF&sig=Ls-uZhlLXOzETowsd0om48GKgHU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXpqWU-JrMAhXVFsAKHS0MC4kQ6AEILjAC#v=onepage&q=boris%20becker%20hans-wilhelm%20mueller-wohlfahrt&f=false

Why would any professional athlete bother himself particularly about olympic ethics, morals and wanting to keep a sport clean? (And just what those legal limits, Boris, when you know that no one was actually testing you? No limits applied in real terms, surely?) Boris is writing to impress an audience here. His hypocrisy is further revealed when you consider he himself called out Thomas Müster for doping having been beaten by him, in Monaco of all places.
 
Mar 13, 2015
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blackcat said:
Mr.White said:
blackcat said:
arcus said:
Murray's statements were hard core, and went further than the other leading men have. He's implying that he's been playing (and maybe losing to) dopers at the highest levels of the sport...

He specifically mentioned 6 hour matches.. How many high profile 6 hour matches have we had in tennis???? Answer = very few. Is he thinking about Djokovic / Nadal ?

http://www.therichest.com/sports/tennis-sports/top-10-longest-tennis-matches-of-all-time/?view=all
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_tennis_match_records
thats because he was losing to dopers, and he knows he was equal the player to nole djokovic all thru juniors and to rafa nadal even tho he is two years under nadals age.

but then murray started hardcore doping to win wimbledon cost he was sick and tired of losing to the full genius dopers. I think they accept some, but not the full genius ones. So when would have Murray started? Sometimes when he came to the realisation that he was losing to the hardcore dopers when he was 21ish, then he upp-ed his program when he realised he was losing to the full genius dopers Nadal and Joker and he NEEDED to win Wimbledon, so he upped it to hardcore. Then he backed off a tad.

just intuition folkx, no evidence
He was never an equal player to Rafa Nadal.
cos Rafa took a year out at 15 and doped to adult physicality and turned pro at 16. See the literature on Rafa.

What, Murray is 2 years younger than Rafa? But Rafa had Uncle Toni and Uncle Toni had his on a steroid diet from 15, so Murray would be playing the 13 yo tourneys in Europe.

I am giving Andy M a major wide berth, and saying, he might have done a little, until he started being top10 winning tourneys, then he even raised his game in his ambition to win Wimbledon he went full genius. FULL genius

So he was always lagging the dope fuelled full genius Rafa
Murray is one year younger than Nadal, and I repeat, he was never at the level of Rafa, with or without doping!
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Zebadeedee said:
sniper said:
the delgados said:
"He gets tested a lot!"
These guys need to hire PR pros to help them refine the message.
Becker was clean though.
Burst on the scene as a 16 year old. Very consistent player after that.
Three times wimbledon champ.
I saw him play, and there just wasn't anything suspicious about his performances.
Tellingly, his carreer went downhill when EPO became widespread in tennis in the mid-90s.
And people in the know (his former coach, doctor, etc.) all say he was clean. Why would they lie about that?

:eek:
What, with money-driven Tiriac as manager and the occultic Müller-Wohlhart as "injury specialist"?

Becker's own remarks while a player are quite telling:-

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eZZMCQAAQBAJ&pg=PT269&lpg=PT269&dq=boris+becker+hans-wilhelm+mueller-wohlfahrt&source=bl&ots=qrStJwBFpF&sig=Ls-uZhlLXOzETowsd0om48GKgHU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXpqWU-JrMAhXVFsAKHS0MC4kQ6AEILjAC#v=onepage&q=boris%20becker%20hans-wilhelm%20mueller-wohlfahrt&f=false

Why would any professional athlete bother himself particularly about olympic ethics, morals and wanting to keep a sport clean? (And just what those legal limits, Boris, when you know that no one was actually testing you? No limits applied in real terms, surely?) Boris is writing to impress an audience here. His hypocrisy is further revealed when you consider he himself called out Thomas Müster for doping having been beaten by him, in Monaco of all places.
cheers, interesting. i didnt know about the MWohlfahrt link. makes sense.

tbs, no, i dont think BB was clean.
hell will freeze over before i,d claim that.
rather, i was attempting to mimmick the average pro-lemond line of argumentation, as it applies neatly to BB.
 
Jun 21, 2015
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Re: Re:

sniper said:
the delgados said:
"He gets tested a lot!"
These guys need to hire PR pros to help them refine the message.
Becker was clean though.
Burst on the scene as a 16 year old. Very consistent player after that.
Three times wimbledon champ.
I saw him play, and there just wasn't anything suspicious about his performances.
Tellingly, his carreer went downhill when EPO became widespread in tennis in the mid-90s.
And people in the know (his former coach, doctor, etc.) all say he was clean. Why would they lie about that?

:eek:
Didn't he work with Joseph Keul?
Keul made a lot of statements about steroids and EPO being safe, IIRC, and he ran the Univeristy of Frieberg sports institute, where Armin Klümper worked. The set-up was was accused of doping Team Telekom. I don't believe Keul was officially nailed in investigations, but lots of files about him were withheld from investigators, and he seemed to have some non-kosher opinions and dodgy associates.

http://www.playthegame.org/news/news-articles/2015/0046_the-doping-paradise-of-freiburg/
 
Jun 21, 2015
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Djokovic's comments reacting to Murray's allegedly thinly veiled accusations sound like they came out of the mouth of a pre-confession Lance Armstrong. Basically his stance is that negative tests mean clean athletes and extraordinary accusations require extraordinary proof.. Nauseating.

EDIT: And seems as if someone at the Washington Post agrees with me......

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/04/19/novak-djokovic-isnt-accused-of-doping-but-he-sounds-eerily-like-lance-armstrong/
 
Jun 21, 2015
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Maxiton said:
Djokovic: Tennis is a hard sport and hard work wins it. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.
What am I on? I'm on my gluten-free diet and busting my ass in a CVAC pod 8 hours a night. What are you on?
 
Sep 8, 2015
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arcus said:
Maxiton said:
Djokovic: Tennis is a hard sport and hard work wins it. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.
What am I on? I'm on my gluten-free diet and busting my *** in a CVAC pod 8 hours a night. What are you on?
That made me laugh so hard I did my back in.
 
Re:

arcus said:
Djokovic's comments reacting to Murray's allegedly thinly veiled accusations sound like they came out of the mouth of a pre-confession Lance Armstrong. Basically his stance is that negative tests mean clean athletes and extraordinary accusations require extraordinary proof.. Nauseating.

EDIT: And seems as if someone at the Washington Post agrees with me......

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/04/19/novak-djokovic-isnt-accused-of-doping-but-he-sounds-eerily-like-lance-armstrong/
Good find, thanks
 
Feb 4, 2012
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arcus said:
Djokovic's comments reacting to Murray's allegedly thinly veiled accusations sound like they came out of the mouth of a pre-confession Lance Armstrong. Basically his stance is that negative tests mean clean athletes and extraordinary accusations require extraordinary proof.. Nauseating.

EDIT: And seems as if someone at the Washington Post agrees with me......

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/04/19/novak-djokovic-isnt-accused-of-doping-but-he-sounds-eerily-like-lance-armstrong/
This is exactly how Armstrong deserves to be referenced in the media.
 
Jun 21, 2015
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Dirty or clean, I don't understand Djokovic's PR approach to this ....
The obvious strategy would have been to ignore the comments till asked about them in press conferences, and then respond with bland statements like 'it's important to protect the sport' and 'I support and comply with it's anti-doping program'. Djokovic's own statements (and Becker's earlier ones), only served to focus the doping spot-light intensely upon himself.... .
Maybe he and his team are just making bad decisions (or getting bad advice), but it's such an own goal it's hard to understand. Makes me wonder if there are aspects to this were not aware of.
 
Perhaps I was too young to remember (or care), but I don't recall too many in the media questioning Armstrong (or any other, for that matter) cyclists or pro athletes in general of whether or not they are doping or even suspicious. I know you have to be careful of what you say, for libel reasons and I am sure there are reporters/journalists out there that make stuff up and write fluff pieces, but at least it's a different tone. People are starting to realize. Certainly more people are aware of the possibilities, at least, that top athletes are doping. Will one of the top men get busted before they call it quits? Who will be the first? I honestly don't see Federer playing beyond this year. I know he's had a procedure recently, so that makes it seem like he wants to stick around for another season or two, but I don't think he will. It's the Olympics, and no matter the results, he'll hang it up. Of course, they can investigate and bust him after he is retired as well. Murray always complains about doping, be it the 'lack of testing,' or 'too much testing,' or 'they come in at weird times of the day,' etc, and now is starting to indirectly point fingers (must be a British thing, see Paula). He spent time in Spain as a youngster and he's improved his endurance and strength over the years as well. Of course, you always try to improve your fitness, but he isn't exactly dead after a 5 set match. Perhaps he isn't as spry as Djokovic or Nadal are, but you have to take his words with a pinch of salt. Nadal is probably the most obvious, certainly in the past decade or so. From his transformation through minimal weight training (I still don't believe that), to the constant injuries, possible silent bans, etc. Djokovic really transformed himself just over a few months after the fall 2010 season and 2011 season. Hardly enough time for such a change in endurance. From a guy that had a hard time breathing if he played more than 3 sets and a knack for retiring to a guy that's able to play back to back 5 or 6 hour matches with not a lot of rest. Sure, he isn't a muscular brute like Nadal or Serena or Stosur, but his endurance and his lunging, sliding, flexibility is as good as anyones in the history of this sport.

Who will be busted first? If anyone.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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BullsFan22 said:
Sure, he isn't a muscular brute like Nadal or Serena or Stosur, but his endurance and his lunging, sliding, flexibility is as good as anyones in the history of this sport.
the big 4 are the best defenders

Nadal Fed Djoker Murray.

All play the best defense in the history of the sport. And over the past 5 years, all of them have considerably leaned up.

The Maple Leaf Missile, no, he aint a porn star, tho I will check on RedTube, Maolos Raonic, he has lost weight, Jo Wilfred Tsonga has lost weight, Rafa has lost about 5lbs from his peak imo, and Fed looks about 3lbs leaner than his heaviest.

Why?

Its the economy stupid! (Bubba Clinton)

nah, lighter weight helps agility and helps defense.

When Serena is at her peak fitness, she can just strike her opponents off the court. On the clay at Roland Garros, her hormone phsique comes back to the crowd of the aicar players. Those lightweight players from Italy can marathon her off the court.

The weight v weightloss, and power v endurace triangulation and trade-off, it is not a trade-off versus yourself.

It is like economic Game Theory, you must triangulate your talents and specialisation, versus your opponent on the other side of the court. No use losing weight and weightloss for weightloss sake. You may still lose out in endurance to most of the top100. You are better at improving the endurance, but looking where you can make your true talents hurt your opponent on the other side of the net.

I remember a talent scout or coach or rectruiter or assistant coach in the NBA talk about prospective players.

You may call this the "Dennis Rodman model". And I aint talking the Allen Iverson tatts and banging Madonna.

The coach/recruiter said, "dont do everything well, if you want a gig and career in the NBA, do one thing very well and be one of the best athletes in the NBA at this particular skill/talent, and you will always have gig on the bench of a team in the NBA". So, you specialise on one thing, triangulate your talents suite versus your competition.
 

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