Tennis

[iejeecee]

Is Lendl usually considered clean? I don't know much about him, but Murray's desire to become huge (with results following) kind of coincides with him working with Lendl

I think anytime someone reaches the top with their main trait being "fitness", in a technical sport like tennis, it should be considered suspicious. Especially when they suddenly dramatically increase said fitness.

I mean the rest are just lazy sob's who never work out of course.....

 

[sugarman]

Beautiful quote from rafa about his current form, make of it what you will

"I’m missing all the things that make me competitive and give me physical confidence, something I’ve had for my whole career and that right now, given the circumstances, I don’t have,”

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013...hings-make-me-competitive/46453/#.USGESqWz7ww

 

[Ney the Viking]

Beautiful quote from rafa about his current form, make of it what you will



http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013...hings-make-me-competitive/46453/#.USGESqWz7ww

Wow, that's hilarious for those of us with cynic tendensies

 

[zebedee]

On a more serious note, this has appeared in today's Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...ayers-linked-to-Dr-Luis-Garcia-del-Moral.html

If any confirmation is needed that the ITF is a toothless regulatory body, then this is it.

There's been a constant claim, lament almost, by both players and regulators, that tennis is a clean sport. The kind of evidence coming out now is indicative of the contrary, that players are doping and are prepared to take risks in continuing to associate with a known doping doctor.

All the players who claim to have only visited del Moral for tests and bloodchecks can henceforth safely be regarded as liars as well as dopers. Dinara Safina, ex-WTA world No 1, is on record as saying (pre USADA) that del Moral assisted her with 'recovery'. Perhaps she ought to be asked to explain precisely what treatment this entailed. Moreover, it seems that despite his 2010 bust for Hgh, Wayne Odesnik has also continued to dope, given his recent appearance on Anthony Bosch's list of Hgh clients.

Cocking a snook at the ITF appears to be the name of the game all round these days.

 

[sniper]

On a more serious note, this has appeared in today's Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...ayers-linked-to-Dr-Luis-Garcia-del-Moral.html

If any confirmation is needed that the ITF is a toothless regulatory body, then this is it.

There's been a constant claim, lament almost, by both players and regulators, that tennis is a clean sport. The kind of evidence coming out now is indicative of the contrary, that players are doping and are prepared to take risks in continuing to associate with a known doping doctor.

All the players who claim to have only visited del Moral for tests and bloodchecks can henceforth safely be regarded as liars as well as dopers. Dinara Safina, ex-WTA world No 1, is on record as saying (pre USADA) that del Moral assisted her with 'recovery'. Perhaps she ought to be asked to explain precisely what treatment this entailed. Moreover, it seems that despite his 2010 bust for Hgh, Wayne Odesnik has also continued to dope, given his recent appearance on Anthony Bosch's list of Hgh clients.

Cocking a snook at the ITF appears to be the name of the game all round these days.

In addition to Nadal, I've always found Ferrer to be one of the most obvious dopers in the game, at present at least. He's one with a continuous roid rage combined with incredible stamina. Very reminiscent of Nadal, though probably less talented (and simply smaller). The Hewitt, Muster type.
Ferrer trained a lot in Valencia and has been linked to Del Moral (we've talked about it before in this thread I believe). The truth is that most Spanish tennis fans couldn't care less how Nadal and Ferrer made it to the top.

 

[zebedee]

A reasonable working hypothesis is that doping has enabled Spain to make the top of world tennis in recent years.

Prior to 1989, Spain could only boast three grand slam singles titles in its entire tennis history and no Davis Cups or Fed Cup titles ever. Since 2000, Spanish men alone have picked up thirteen grand slam titles and the Davis Cup has been won five times. Spanish WTA players have also featured strongly as grand slam and Fed Cup winners.

That's an unprecedented level of success. How is this possible? What has accounted for this near miraculous turnaround? What factors have changed? Certainly not the weather, nor the number of courts. The Spanish federation itself is largely penniless. They say humility and hard work alone plus the impact of Spanish tennis academies. The evidence from Fuentes, del Moral and most probably other doctors too, would indicate that doping has also played a big part. And it's certainly a part that the authorities don't want measured or revealed in any way, judging by their refusal to cooperate with WADA regarding release of the Fuentes names and blood bag evidence.

 

[jamesmasters]

agassi's was meth, or ice, he "said". Ofcourse, it could have, as you say, been a stimulant amphetamine.

Athletes dont believe its cheating. Agassi is another type A.

I dont think he just started with Gil in his mid to late 20's on his return to the Tour after his Brooke Shields divorce. he woulda always done something, just when he returned, he got serious.

but not at the start, when he had to do the satellites (challengers) to get his ranking up.

A 17yo Lleyton Hewitt beat him in Adelaide . Hewitt's old man is like the worst of tennis parents, up there with Capriati's and Mary Pierce's. Worse than Damir Dokic imo, just he has his head strapped on unlike DD, and does not complain about fish prices in the players cafe at Wimbledon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETSl8gWsFZ0

Heh!

I think it is safe to assume that he tested positive for the stimulant 'methamphetamine' rather than the stimulant 'dextroamphetamine' which the baseball players have traditionally used.

But you seem to be implying that methamphetamine is not a 'stimulant amphetamine.' This could not be further from the truth. In fact, the stimulant effects of methamphetamine are significantly stronger than those of dextroamphetamine. And methamphetamine does not have the cardiovascular side effects of dextroamphetamine.

So in other words, Agassi's claim that this was recreational is highly suspect. I doubt meth would have much (if any) performance enhancing effects for a sport like cycling, which is all about power and endurance. But it very clearly would have performance enhancing effects for tennis, which is about hand-eye coordination. As shown by the fact that another sport which needs good hand-eye coordination, baseball, has lived off amphetamines for 50 years.

 

[blackcat]

Heh!

I think it is safe to assume that he tested positive for the stimulant 'methamphetamine' rather than the stimulant 'dextroamphetamine' which the baseball players have traditionally used.

But you seem to be implying that methamphetamine is not a 'stimulant amphetamine.' This could not be further from the truth. In fact, the stimulant effects of methamphetamine are significantly stronger than those of dextroamphetamine. And methamphetamine does not have the cardiovascular side effects of dextroamphetamine.

So in other words, Agassi's claim that this was recreational is highly suspect. I doubt meth would have much (if any) performance enhancing effects for a sport like cycling, which is all about power and endurance. But it very clearly would have performance enhancing effects for tennis, which is about hand-eye coordination. As shown by the fact that another sport which needs good hand-eye coordination, baseball, has lived off amphetamines for 50 years.

thanx for the contribution, thumbs up emoticon thingie

 

[jamesmasters]

thanx for the contribution, thumbs up emoticon thingie

Thanks... I only know all this because someone who isn't me might have tried certain of the substances referred to in the previous post. And that person is in no doubt whatsoever that the stuff Agassi tested positive for could definitely be used as a performance enhancer for any racquet sport, or baseball. Even though it can also be used recreationally.

That's at least two massively high profile tennis players with question marks next to them - Agassi (positive test) and Marat Safin (linked to Del Moral).

The only question is how deep it goes. Obviously plenty of people think Nadal is on something. The interesting question is whether the less obvious players like Federer are all at it as well.

 

[sugarman]

On a more serious note, this has appeared in today's Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...ayers-linked-to-Dr-Luis-Garcia-del-Moral.html

If any confirmation is needed that the ITF is a toothless regulatory body, then this is it.

That's crazy, so despite del moral being given a life-time ban around July last year, the ITF only now thinks its worth increasing testing on players who continue to see him???

Would it be completely ridiculous for the various anti-doping bodies to show some cooperation in fighting doping? Del Moral, for example, has been considered fairly dodgy in cycling circles for some time now, it would be great if once USADA started investigating him (re: USPS) his name could be circulated to other agencies, allowing the ITF, for example, to target test those players known to use his services. I don't know if this already happens, but if not it should - testing alone is clearly insufficient, 'intelligence' needs to be used also.

A reasonable working hypothesis is that doping has enabled Spain to make the top of world tennis in recent years.

Seems a completely reasonable hypothesis to me!

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

The truth is that most Spanish tennis fans couldn't care less how Nadal and Ferrer made it to the top.

I wager that you could replace Spanish with most, if not all, nationalities and Nadal and Ferrer with their relevant top players.

 

[sugarman]

Heh!

I think it is safe to assume that he tested positive for the stimulant 'methamphetamine' rather than the stimulant 'dextroamphetamine' which the baseball players have traditionally used.

But you seem to be implying that methamphetamine is not a 'stimulant amphetamine.' This could not be further from the truth. In fact, the stimulant effects of methamphetamine are significantly stronger than those of dextroamphetamine. And methamphetamine does not have the cardiovascular side effects of dextroamphetamine.

So in other words, Agassi's claim that this was recreational is highly suspect. I doubt meth would have much (if any) performance enhancing effects for a sport like cycling, which is all about power and endurance. But it very clearly would have performance enhancing effects for tennis, which is about hand-eye coordination. As shown by the fact that another sport which needs good hand-eye coordination, baseball, has lived off amphetamines for 50 years.

Amphetamines have a pretty long history in cycling, good to make to feeling of fatigue disappear at the end of a long stage, but have been obviously well superseded by oxygen vector doping.

I'd be surprised if top pro tennis players were using (or still using) amphets as PEDs, I'm sure its much more sophisticated than that now. You really don't need to see a guy like Del Moral if all your doing is the odd hit of speed. That said, there is definitely the potential for performance enhancement, and maybe in '97 when Agassi was done that was the extent of doping in tennis...?

The much bigger issue, in my opinion, is that the ATP was so willing to accept Agassi's story and cover the whole thing up. That is genuinely concerning. And Agassi is still treated as no less a hero of the sport after admitting he lied about it. (Perhaps the pro-tennis scene was not shocked at all, maybe they have had a doping culture for some time???)

Methamphetamine is also certainly cardio-toxic, long term use combined with high intensity sport is far from a great idea...

 

[SundayRider]

I'd say rugby (union and league) has as big (if not bigger) doping problem than tennis.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I wager that you could replace Spanish with most, if not all, nationalities and Nadal and Ferrer with their relevant top players.

Exactly, it is the same for every country.

 

[King Boonen]

I'd say rugby (union and league) has as big (if not bigger) doping problem than tennis.

And why would you say that?

 

[Catwhoorg]

And why would you say that?

Go to UK antidoping and take a look at the current sanctions. RFL/U are both well represented.

Admittedly, a good portion of those are for Methylhexaneamine, probably taken in via supplements and ignorance.

But there is a smattering of serious analbolics in there.

The Welsh RFU particularly has a problem.

 

[SundayRider]

And why would you say that?

The sheer size and low levels of bf% achieved at those sizes - 'not normal'.

 

[King Boonen]

Go to UK antidoping and take a look at the current sanctions. RFL/U are both well represented.

Admittedly, a good portion of those are for Methylhexaneamine, probably taken in via supplements and ignorance.

But there is a smattering of serious analbolics in there.

The Welsh RFU particularly has a problem.

I think we can all agree, particularly in the clinic, that absence of sanctioned individuals is not absence of doping. I'm not saying the post was wrong, but it needed something to back it up.

 

[King Boonen]

The sheer size and low levels of bf% achieved at those sizes - 'not normal'.

Fair points, but only if seen from outside the sports.

You are correct in saying it isn't normal, that's why they lift weights and must continue to do so to maintain their size. I know a couple of people built like that (one current England rugby player, although he's been left out of the six nations so far) and while I can't vouch for him I can vouch for the others as being clean as they do not compete in sports, have discussed doping with me, and said it just wouldn't be worthwhile for them.

I'm also fairly well built, although I only weigh 73 kgs, but my body fat is below 10% and I certainly don't do drugs (I don't even drink).

I'm sure abuse happens in rugby, the rate of size increase is a bigger indicator to me than their actual size, this is why, I personally believe, forwards are getting younger, as they are getting a "boost" in their physical development.

I still don't believe the problems are worse than tennis though, at least, not without real evidence. And remember, doping isn't just about getting bigger and stronger.

 

[SundayRider]

Fair points, but only if seen from outside the sports.

You are correct in saying it isn't normal, that's why they lift weights and must continue to do so to maintain their size. I know a couple of people built like that (one current England rugby player, although he's been left out of the six nations so far) and while I can't vouch for him I can vouch for the others as being clean as they do not compete in sports, have discussed doping with me, and said it just wouldn't be worthwhile for them.

I'm also fairly well built, although I only weigh 73 kgs, but my body fat is below 10% and I certainly don't do drugs (I don't even drink).

I'm sure abuse happens in rugby, the rate of size increase is a bigger indicator to me than their actual size, this is why, I personally believe, forwards are getting younger, as they are getting a "boost" in their physical development.

I still don't believe the problems are worse than tennis though, at least, not without real evidence. And remember, doping isn't just about getting bigger and stronger.

Yeah of course they train - but when you get teams where the lightest player is 90Kg at a low level of BF% you have to ask questions.

 

[King Boonen]

Yeah of course they train - but when you get teams where the lightest player is 90Kg at a low level of BF% you have to ask questions.

Again, I agree but it is achievable. I have friends who weigh in around 100 kg and have bf of below 10%, they don't dope as it would be of no benefit to them. That in itself isn't enough to cast suspicion as far as I'm concerned and perpetuates the wrong lines of argument and discussion.


The rate of player development is more indicative of doping.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Didn't see it posted so apologies if it has been.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/article...s-great-right-to-take-shot-at-lance-armstrong

Nadal has come out and bashed Armstrong in a troll article.

"It's easy to see why he (Nadal) is annoyed with Armstrong"

Lol ..... but to be fair you can be a doper without being a jerk, he's modest and self effacing behind the scenes from what I've heard.

 

[sniper]

...
Lol ..... but to be fair you can be a doper without being a jerk, he's modest and self effacing behind the scenes from what I've heard.

true, but he's not very sportsman-like on court.
the high raised fist, the little rituals.
I don't like it, though he's not the first nor the last of course.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

true, but he's not very sportsman-like on court.
the high raised fist, the little rituals.
I don't like it, though he's not the first nor the last of course.

Not to mention disregarding the no more than 20 seconds between points rule.

 

[Catwhoorg]

I think we can all agree, particularly in the clinic, that absence of sanctioned individuals is not absence of doping. I'm not saying the post was wrong, but it needed something to back it up.

I was making the opposite point. (obviously not at all well)

The large number positive tests are clearly indicative of a widespread problem (in rugby), simply because testing is normally easy to circumvent.