- May 21, 2010
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Cookster15
Moderator
- May 14, 2011
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Just read this in Cyclingnews in yet another story about Armstrong. Seriously Tennis really is a joke when it comes to PEDs. Just 21 Out of competition tests in 2011 for international tennis compared with 3,314 in cycling and a whopping 6,065 in Ice Hockey 
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rep...has-gone-regardless-of-olympic-medal-decision
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rep...has-gone-regardless-of-olympic-medal-decision
Cookster15 said:Just read this in Cyclingnews in yet another story about Armstrong. Seriously Tennis really is a joke when it comes to PEDs. Just 21 Out of competition tests in 2011 for international tennis compared with 3,314 in cycling and a whopping 6,065 in Ice Hockey
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rep...has-gone-regardless-of-olympic-medal-decision
Ice-hockey was blood + urine, cycling blood only
The ITF remains in a state of denial over tennis doping. It has never accepted a problem exists and various excuses are made for this including the ludicrous one that because the sport is highly technical, peds offer less advantage to cheaters. Its failure to respond to all the recent unfavourable comment questioning its lamentably weak anti-doping regimen, at times to the point of ridicule, puts its own credibility in doubt.
Says it all really, and he's a person who knows a bit about these things.
https://twitter.com/VictorConte/status/266605880114565120
All top four ranked ATP players now pretty much admit the present anti-doping regime in tennis is next to useless.
So far all three principal tennis bodies, ITF, ATP and WTA, have remained moot on the issue.
https://twitter.com/VictorConte/status/266605880114565120
All top four ranked ATP players now pretty much admit the present anti-doping regime in tennis is next to useless.
So far all three principal tennis bodies, ITF, ATP and WTA, have remained moot on the issue.
Federer repels one of a million strong Hun army that typifies tennis these days.
The introducon of ProZone to tennis might throw out some interesting statistics to enable significant comparisons between the technically-gifted player and his baseline bashing opponent.
It seems to me the typical pro is now reliant on physique, stamina and pure hitting power to win matches and less and less on technical ability. And that's exactly where the peds produce the goods for a tennis player; strength and endurance during match play followed by faster recovery. When you can run all day and know you have it in your legs, why rely on anything else when you don't have to? That logically leads to more of an attritional game and less of a game style based on technical ability such as volleying or risktaking such as net approaches. And we're seeing this as a very strong trend within the pro game, where the likes of a pure talent like Henman simply don't survive in a sea of prototypical baseline bashers.
When you see a six hour Australian Open final with the players still running round like rabbits at the end, things don't stack up any more. Bill Tilden's maxim that you win at tennis by physically (and mentally) breaking down your opponent doesn't hold true anymore for those who choose to remain clean or play a more traditional style.
The introducon of ProZone to tennis might throw out some interesting statistics to enable significant comparisons between the technically-gifted player and his baseline bashing opponent.
It seems to me the typical pro is now reliant on physique, stamina and pure hitting power to win matches and less and less on technical ability. And that's exactly where the peds produce the goods for a tennis player; strength and endurance during match play followed by faster recovery. When you can run all day and know you have it in your legs, why rely on anything else when you don't have to? That logically leads to more of an attritional game and less of a game style based on technical ability such as volleying or risktaking such as net approaches. And we're seeing this as a very strong trend within the pro game, where the likes of a pure talent like Henman simply don't survive in a sea of prototypical baseline bashers.
When you see a six hour Australian Open final with the players still running round like rabbits at the end, things don't stack up any more. Bill Tilden's maxim that you win at tennis by physically (and mentally) breaking down your opponent doesn't hold true anymore for those who choose to remain clean or play a more traditional style.
- Oct 17, 2012
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zebedee said:
I agree with all of this above, tennis has become more sterile and certainly less tactically diverse in the last 15 years.
I used to think that it was a symptom of the Bolletieri system and it's reliance on developing baseline play as being the most result effective coaching method, but it is difficult to argue against the proposition that PEDS might have also played a role, as you suggest.
The ITF, WTA and ATP don't help with their pathetic anti-doping programmes, do they?
The Bollettieri era, through Agassi and to a lesser extent, Jimmy Arias, ushered in the ripped forehand (Bollettieri's 'killer forehand' so-called) where winning points could now be ripped from the backcourt. If you look at the videos pre late 80's, this was rarely managed even though they had by then the graphite racquets to do this. The received wisdom was that you couldn't or didn't hit through the court to make points but Agassi showed you could. It then became a routine play in Agassi's game style.
Since then it's spread like wildfire through the pro ranks and upper levels of tennis. No doubt all kinds of factors have converged to cement this predominant game style but it seems to me that this has now displaced all other game styles and largely made them redundant. Federer himself possessed a serve volley game style at the start of his career (look at the 2001 Sampras/Federer Wimbledon video) but very quickly moved away from that to rely on a backcourt-dominant game although tempered in his case by use of a fantastic volleying technique. Simply put, pro tennis is less reliant on technical repertoire. Some players can barely volley and so hardly ever venture to the net other than to put the ball away. Agassi volleying was a thinly-disguised joke.
My thesis is that this style of play - baseline bashing - lends itself particularly well to all the advantages that doping confers in that a player knowing he's secure on his legs can stay on the baseline and get behind virtually anything an opponent can throw at him. This isn't to say players aren't also superbly conditioned, trained or that they're able to forget good technique. What I'm saying is that doping enables tennis players to reach the top and stay there with a fairly limited technical range in their repertoire.
And you'll also note that all pros talk about these days is improvement forged through conditioning; Murray with his muscles and Djokovic with his magic diet and so on. They rarely talk of little technical improvements in their game and this in perhaps the most technical of all sports. The culmination of all this is perhaps best observed in the woman's game where virtually no gamestyle exists other than the baseline basher and where, in my view, even more evidence for widespread doping exists, circumstantially at least, than in the men's game. It is significant to note that the women signed up to WADA/ITF anti-doping a full year after the men, before which the players own organisation laughingly did all its own testing. Call me a cynic but there's more than an arguable case for saying the ITF is fiddling while Rome burns.
Since then it's spread like wildfire through the pro ranks and upper levels of tennis. No doubt all kinds of factors have converged to cement this predominant game style but it seems to me that this has now displaced all other game styles and largely made them redundant. Federer himself possessed a serve volley game style at the start of his career (look at the 2001 Sampras/Federer Wimbledon video) but very quickly moved away from that to rely on a backcourt-dominant game although tempered in his case by use of a fantastic volleying technique. Simply put, pro tennis is less reliant on technical repertoire. Some players can barely volley and so hardly ever venture to the net other than to put the ball away. Agassi volleying was a thinly-disguised joke.
My thesis is that this style of play - baseline bashing - lends itself particularly well to all the advantages that doping confers in that a player knowing he's secure on his legs can stay on the baseline and get behind virtually anything an opponent can throw at him. This isn't to say players aren't also superbly conditioned, trained or that they're able to forget good technique. What I'm saying is that doping enables tennis players to reach the top and stay there with a fairly limited technical range in their repertoire.
And you'll also note that all pros talk about these days is improvement forged through conditioning; Murray with his muscles and Djokovic with his magic diet and so on. They rarely talk of little technical improvements in their game and this in perhaps the most technical of all sports. The culmination of all this is perhaps best observed in the woman's game where virtually no gamestyle exists other than the baseline basher and where, in my view, even more evidence for widespread doping exists, circumstantially at least, than in the men's game. It is significant to note that the women signed up to WADA/ITF anti-doping a full year after the men, before which the players own organisation laughingly did all its own testing. Call me a cynic but there's more than an arguable case for saying the ITF is fiddling while Rome burns.
- Aug 18, 2012
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Whilst not a volleyer I actually found Agassi's style generally aesthetically pleasing, his father was obsessed with angles and beautiful shots and some of this shone through despite his training at the Bollitieri academy.
Styles I personally find ugly to watch: Nadal, Ferrer, Williams Sister's, Sharapova and more
Murray actually has a pretty good game technically despite being roided up.
Styles I personally find ugly to watch: Nadal, Ferrer, Williams Sister's, Sharapova and more
Murray actually has a pretty good game technically despite being roided up.
Agassi 'I can press 350 plus', made a practice of running opponents from corner to corner like hares until they exhausted themselves. And the opponents he didn't like he reputedly kept on court as long as he could, perpetrating the sort of 'mild abuse' that he famously claimed his father had subjected him to.
Post his drug revelations, the thought arises that he relied on steroids to do this. Not a pleasant thought.
Agassi came to the net to shake hands, not volley.
He won most of his grand slam titles after he reached 29 - a late age for a singles player - an achievement without precedent in modern tennis. He attributes it all to his conditioning and his inspirational association with his trainer, Gill Reyes.
Post his drug revelations, the thought arises that he relied on steroids to do this. Not a pleasant thought.
Agassi came to the net to shake hands, not volley.
He won most of his grand slam titles after he reached 29 - a late age for a singles player - an achievement without precedent in modern tennis. He attributes it all to his conditioning and his inspirational association with his trainer, Gill Reyes.
There's a nice little piece on Tennis and doping tests on CBC today:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/tennis/story/2012/11/13/sp-itf-tennis-doping.html
Looks like they are waking up to the criticism of lax controls - it will be interesting to see if anything actually comes of it. Some great tidbits:
---
"Of the 642 tested tennis players, 510 were not tested out of competition at all in 2011."
---
Serena Williams: "I get tested a lot."
"For me, it's a pretty intense system and I know a lot of the players feel the same way," she said."
In response, the article states: "ITF statistics on its website show it didn't test Serena Williams out of competition at all in 2010 and 2011"
--
I think if this goes anywhere there will be lots of retirements coming up for tennis.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/tennis/story/2012/11/13/sp-itf-tennis-doping.html
Looks like they are waking up to the criticism of lax controls - it will be interesting to see if anything actually comes of it. Some great tidbits:
---
"Of the 642 tested tennis players, 510 were not tested out of competition at all in 2011."
---
Serena Williams: "I get tested a lot."
"For me, it's a pretty intense system and I know a lot of the players feel the same way," she said."
In response, the article states: "ITF statistics on its website show it didn't test Serena Williams out of competition at all in 2010 and 2011"
--
I think if this goes anywhere there will be lots of retirements coming up for tennis.
The most stark observations one can perhaps make about tennis is the lack of effort put into anti-doping and the persistent denial of a doping problem. The ITF revealed earlier this year that it was $300,000 underspent on its last reported budget review (2011), and that on a puny-enough approved spend of only $1.6 million. This compares with the $5.0 million or so seen in cycling.
The grand slam tournaments make literally hundreds and hundreds of millions each year. Wimbledon is rich enough to spend an estimated £50 million plus on its roof alone as well as buy up all the property going within sight of its ground. Yet the grand slams starve the anti-doping effort financially while current and ex-ATP/WTA professionals give voice unopposed to false propaganda about the tennis anti-doping programme being intense and unrelenting. Apart from the odd politically correct utterance now emerging from the likes of Murray (and co) who has now performed a volte face to jump on the USADA bandwagon, there's an almost total denial that a drugs problem may exist in tennis. Meanwhile the ducking and diving goes on, the world no. 5, David Ferrer, being a case in point. Ferrer now denies any past association with cycling's Dr del Moral despite the doctor once being publically named as part of his training set up. Marat Safin's sister, ex world no 1, Dinara, has expressed a similar contradictory denial.
The proposed introduction of the biological passport into tennis, now belatedly mooted by the ITF as its response to USADA, will be a total waste of time without the funds to back it.
The grand slam tournaments make literally hundreds and hundreds of millions each year. Wimbledon is rich enough to spend an estimated £50 million plus on its roof alone as well as buy up all the property going within sight of its ground. Yet the grand slams starve the anti-doping effort financially while current and ex-ATP/WTA professionals give voice unopposed to false propaganda about the tennis anti-doping programme being intense and unrelenting. Apart from the odd politically correct utterance now emerging from the likes of Murray (and co) who has now performed a volte face to jump on the USADA bandwagon, there's an almost total denial that a drugs problem may exist in tennis. Meanwhile the ducking and diving goes on, the world no. 5, David Ferrer, being a case in point. Ferrer now denies any past association with cycling's Dr del Moral despite the doctor once being publically named as part of his training set up. Marat Safin's sister, ex world no 1, Dinara, has expressed a similar contradictory denial.
The proposed introduction of the biological passport into tennis, now belatedly mooted by the ITF as its response to USADA, will be a total waste of time without the funds to back it.
- Sep 14, 2011
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Interesting piece in the Telegraph about Murray today.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/te...r-Jez-Green-ahead-of-the-Australian-Open.html
“It’s usually very difficult to put on muscle and improve endurance, as they counteract each other in training. But Andy has improved endurance statistics and put on 3lb of lean muscle.
Is this a sign that Murray has been busy during his winter training?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/te...r-Jez-Green-ahead-of-the-Australian-Open.html
“It’s usually very difficult to put on muscle and improve endurance, as they counteract each other in training. But Andy has improved endurance statistics and put on 3lb of lean muscle.
Is this a sign that Murray has been busy during his winter training?
not just a sign, it is evidence to anyone with an open mind.Bernie's eyesore said:
think about it, he also has to actually train intensively with the ball, i.e spend numerous hours on court just hitting the ball. At the same time we're supposed to believe he spends wasteful hours in the gym to gain muscle, and is still able to (significantly) improve his endurance. Look at the title of that piece "Murray is as fast as Usain Bolt, says his fitness trainer".
Major eyebrow-raisers. As the article suggests, it's nearly impossible.PEDs would be a major asset of his training: first of all to allow him to train longer obviously, and of course the steroids to avoid him having to spend those wasteful hours in the gym (cf. Nadal's public statements in that regard), time he can instead spend on court hitting the ball.
Not that he's alone in tennis. At the top they are all millionaires able to pay for the best programs, so at least it's a level playing field.
- Sep 26, 2009
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Murray's Transformation
Compare him to 2005.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/te...Andy-Murray-v-Roger-Federer-story-so-far.html
Bernie's eyesore said:
Compare him to 2005.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/te...Andy-Murray-v-Roger-Federer-story-so-far.html
Federer's physique has changed very little over the years. Fed actually looks like a guy who works in an office who works out occasionally in his spare time.
More details on Supermurray here today:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2013/jan/10/andy-murray-australian-open-players-injuries
"The fact that Andy has now put more emphasis on strength and power in his training and still has such a high VO2 max (peak oxygen uptake) is unique. Not many people can improve so much on strength, put on a few pounds of predominantly muscle and still maintain such a high VO2."
"Without backup, they could not compete – which is why players outside the elite often struggle to keep up."
Hard to read that without seeing inverted commas around the second word. Article also has a rundown of the ever-growing duration of grand-slam matches, and the credulity-stretching stamina levels now routinely required to win them.
Brad Gilbert, who once trained Murray, says: "Your heart rate has to go up to the sky, come down in a second and then go right back up. And somehow you have to psychologically convince yourself to suffer like that for six hours. You've got to be like an iron man in a triathlon."
Any particular iron man?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2013/jan/10/andy-murray-australian-open-players-injuries
"The fact that Andy has now put more emphasis on strength and power in his training and still has such a high VO2 max (peak oxygen uptake) is unique. Not many people can improve so much on strength, put on a few pounds of predominantly muscle and still maintain such a high VO2."
"Without backup, they could not compete – which is why players outside the elite often struggle to keep up."
Hard to read that without seeing inverted commas around the second word. Article also has a rundown of the ever-growing duration of grand-slam matches, and the credulity-stretching stamina levels now routinely required to win them.
Brad Gilbert, who once trained Murray, says: "Your heart rate has to go up to the sky, come down in a second and then go right back up. And somehow you have to psychologically convince yourself to suffer like that for six hours. You've got to be like an iron man in a triathlon."
Any particular iron man?
unclem0nty said:
Poor analogy from Gilbert, Ironman is about maintaining a high steady pace, if your heart rate goes sky high in a Ironman you've done something very wrong. Regarding Murray this is the lad who didn't look anything like a natural athlete at aged 18/19.
I wonder if the likes of David Walsh will turn their attention to tennis, rugby, football etc., once the LA debacle effectively comes to an end after Oprah next Thursday?
- Aug 18, 2012
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SundayRider said:
I wouldn't go that far, he's fairly toned but definitely not as muscular as Nadal or Murray.
How is the information going to be revealed?
Tennis presents a harder nut to crack than cycling. It's not organised along team lines and doping secrets can be restricted to just the player, his doctor and perhaps his trainer/advisor. Nothing goes on in locker rooms as it's all too public so the doping, if it goes on, happens very privately elsewhere. Nobody in the sport speaks either, neither about doping nor throwing matches for money which is arguably just as big a problem in tennis as doping is.
The ITF has remained largely schtum since the Armstrong revelations apart from alerting those top players who were frequenting Del Moral for their drugs to keep away. Had it wanted to, it could have caught several top players red-handed including David Ferrer and Sara Errani.
Tennis presents a harder nut to crack than cycling. It's not organised along team lines and doping secrets can be restricted to just the player, his doctor and perhaps his trainer/advisor. Nothing goes on in locker rooms as it's all too public so the doping, if it goes on, happens very privately elsewhere. Nobody in the sport speaks either, neither about doping nor throwing matches for money which is arguably just as big a problem in tennis as doping is.
The ITF has remained largely schtum since the Armstrong revelations apart from alerting those top players who were frequenting Del Moral for their drugs to keep away. Had it wanted to, it could have caught several top players red-handed including David Ferrer and Sara Errani.
Cycle Chic said:
You can't seem to watch much tennis then as Murray has destroyed Fed many times over best of 3 matches, just not so in Slams that are best of 5. Look at their head to head and I think Murray actually leads Federer, but only in best of 3 matches. The Olympic win was great but imo no bigger than a masters title.
Tennis definately has some improvements to make regarding testing though, particularly around blood. Fed has moaned about the pack of blood testing more than once.
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