Tennis

[del1962]

The cleanest peleton ever is true. Cycling is the cleanest sport at this moment.

I'm so ****ed off by football/tennis/swimming etc. They all dope eating pills like candies and cycling get's the public heat.

Cookson should have on agenda to push doping reforms (more likely normal doping controls. if cycling doping controls would applied to football there will be no ECL tomorrow from lack of players) on other sports to. If the filth in other sports is uncovered that cycling will have only to gain.

doubt doping in football has ever come anywhere near to the levels of 1990s doping in cycling, even among super charged doping it is possible to make a very good living out of football clean if you have the natural talent, that is not to say that there is no doping in football or that dope does not improve performance in football.

 

[EnacheV]

doubt doping in football has ever come anywhere near to the levels of 1990s doping in cycling, even among super charged doping it is possible to make a very good living out of football clean if you have the natural talent, that is not to say that there is no doping in football or that dope does not improve performance in football.

You may want to check the stories of great football teams (not individuals but teams) that played ECl finals with pills in their morning coffee (Herrera Inter), Ajax pills, Beckenbauer own blood reinjection, Marseille players getting shoots before ECL final, or how Juventus were on the grand scale team program with EPO and other stuff, but only the doctor got convicted, players escaped somehow (to much money in the line).

I really think that if footballers would be tested by cycling anti-doping structures there will be no ECL tomorrow.

P.S. Just remembered about Arsene Wenger puzzled by high hematocrit values of the players he was transffering. He said something like " i think they dope them and the players don't even know".

 

[hrotha]

doubt doping in football has ever come anywhere near to the levels of 1990s doping in cycling, even among super charged doping it is possible to make a very good living out of football clean if you have the natural talent, that is not to say that there is no doping in football or that dope does not improve performance in football.

Parma and Juventus are 100% proven to have had team-wide blood doping in the mid 90s. At the very least.

 

[wansteadimp]

The AEGON championships are the week after the French.

I don't see how you can say he never went close to Roland Garros.

Saying he's a doper but didn't strategically skip the French doesn't make sense. Remember how many athletes hotel rooms were raided in the Festina affair? The last minute cancellation of raids on Lance room. Those were some key weeks in his preparation for Wimbledon.

I didn't say that he didn't skip RG for strategic reasons, I was pointing out that the original post was full of fundamental errors.

He didnt pull out of RG it was the Italian Open.

It was closer to a month not a fortnight until he returned.

He returned to Queens rather than Wimbledon.

Accusations aren't going to be taken seriously if the evidence backing them up is rubbish.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

If Andy Murray's back issue isn't genuine, then you have to admire him for the thoroughness with which he is sorting out his cover story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/24217149

 

[RownhamHill]

, even among super charged doping it is possible to make a very good living out of football clean if you have the natural talent,

How could you possibly know that?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

How could you possibly know that?

Play in the English Championship. You can earn a tidy wedge (average salary in 2012 = £210k pa; approx 20% of the level in the Premiership) there and don't even need to be very good, so a talented player could prosper in such a league.

Undertstandably, everyone playing there wants to play in the Premiership though.

 

[The Hitch]

doubt doping in football has ever come anywhere near to the levels of 1990s doping in cycling.

I see you are absolutely clueless about doping in general.

Pretty amazing comment that for someone who spends so much time arguing with people, many of whom actually do know something about doping, in the clinic.

 

[Cycle Chic]

If Andy Murray's back issue isn't genuine, then you have to admire him for the thoroughness with which he is sorting out his cover story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/24217149

Just reaffirms the tennis thread is clueless. Posters stating Murray's back problem is a cover story when it is has been well known for many years he suffers with his back.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Just reaffirms the tennis thread is clueless. Posters stating Murray's back problem is a cover story when it is has been well known for many years he suffers with his back.

Or has Murray been faking back injuries for years, so this doping break appears legitimate?

 

[The Hitch]

Here is how I see it.

1 The top tennis players dope. With the combination of weak testing, high level of performance in recent years and money at stake, it is almost inconceivable that someone could challenge for a GS title in 2013 without doing what has to be done.

2 You do not know how much each one dopes. The fact that you like Federer and want to suck his **** does not mean he dopes less than Nadal because you dont like him.
To make assumptions on specifics and quantities of player doping products is NOT the same as to make assumptions on the simple yes or no question of - do they dope. It requires far far far more information and unless you work in the anti doping business or the pro doping business, you CANNOT know that.

Its exactly the same as the Boonen fanboys who after finding out about Ibraugen starting moaning - oh we know Cancellara dopes more because he attacks further out, so its ok.

3 You do not know how each one dopes unless its a proven method. Inject epo is a simple thing thousands of athletes have done. Fake injury is a lot more complicated and there is no real record of it so you cant just say - oh look, this player was injured, i think he dopes, the 2 things must be related.

4 With the money tennis players have and the proven record in the sport (with Aggasi and I think Rusedski) of covering up positives to save the business, why the **** would Nadal or Murray need to fake an injury to dope?

No TDF winner needed to fake an injury. Nadal, Murray, Djokovic have 50 times more fame, money, profit potential, fans, national interest etc than Froome will ever have. They compete in a sport with 50 times less drug testing.

It makes no sense. Why wouldnt they just dope. Thats what I dont understand. Why not just take the drugs and move on.

5 Not everything a doper does in their life is related to their doping. If one of the top 4 tennis players had a car crash tomorrow it wouldnt mean they were speeding away from a doping ring or that they were under the influence of doping products.

Life goes on just as normal for someone who has taken epo in the morning as for someone who hasn't. You cannot read into everything you hear about a tennis player and interpret it as having anything to do with match fixing or doping.

An athlete dopes in the morning and they may not think about it at all until the next time they do it.

 

[Bicycle]

With the money tennis players have and the proven record in the sport (with Aggasi and I think Rusedski) of covering up positives to save the business, why the **** would Nadal or Murray need to fake an injury to dope?

No TDF winner needed to fake an injury. Nadal, Murray, Djokovic have 50 times more fame, money, profit potential, fans, national interest etc than Froome will ever have. They compete in a sport with 50 times less drug testing.

It makes no sense. Why wouldnt they just dope. Thats what I dont understand. Why not just take the drugs and move on.

Because cycling down is crucial to optimising the effectiveness of doping - and then when you cycle up again you need to avoid in-competition testing. OOC testing is easily avoided by not being where your whereabouts say you should be.

 

[zebedee]

Here is how I see it.

There does appear to be a pattern in tennis of players disappearing off tour and later re-emerging invigorated. Agassi and Nadal would be prime examples. These periods provide major doping opportunity given the complete absence historically of O-O-C testing.

In comparison to cycling - where riders and public have a close relationship - millionaire tennis players live largely secluded lives and little or no information really surfaces as to what they're up to, sinister or otherwise. It seems invidious to me, therefore, to view a player as doping when there simply isn't any real evidence to back that up. It requires too massive a leap of judgement IMO.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

The fact that you like Federer and want to suck his **** does not mean he dopes less than Nadal because you dont like him

When they first came on the scene I was actually more of a fan of Nadal.

Prime Federer had an incredibly smug way of delivering comments that if written down would look modest but if you heard him talk were palpably arrogant. Describing him as modest would be as accurate as describing Lance as a nice guy; he was probably the most arrogant guy on tour. He also did some things which I thought were annoying and pompous like wearing an upper class english gentleman's blazer at Wimbledon. Nadal and even Djokovic sounded more humble in interviews and presented like they came from humble origins.

IMO it goes like this; Nadal is the most muscular (physique wise) player in the history of the game with the best stamina. Federer on the other hand was the most accurate with the best shot selection and also did things like make the forehand slice a key shot in the modern game, I don't believe drugs help much with that I could use stimulants tomorrow to fuel a three hour practise session but I'd pay for that the day after. I don't believe using mild doses of testosterone/growth hormone for recovery would help much when boredom/natural ability are the limiting factors.

 

[The Hitch]

IMO it goes like this; Nadal is the most muscular (physique wise) player in the history of the game with the best stamina. Federer on the other hand was the most accurate with the best shot selection and also did things like make the forehand slice a key shot in the modern game, I don't believe drugs help much with that I could use stimulants tomorrow to fuel a three hour practise session but I'd pay for that the day after. I don't believe using mild doses of testosterone/growth hormone for recovery would help much when boredom/natural ability are the limiting factors.

Federer has great shots. He also needs power and stamina and lots and lots of it.

Nadals power is more visible. That doesnt mean he is doping more.

Gatlin is slower than Bolt does that mean Gatlin dopes less?

And as for stamina there is no proof that Nadal is better than Federer. Have you seen Federer tire. When they face eachother one is running as much as the other and wacking the ball as much as the other. Federer is superman when it comes to these things as well. Hes got the record for most gs played in a row and he won half of them.

Fatigue does exist in tennis. Players doing 60 grand slams in a row and winning half of them reminds me of riders winning back to back gts during the 90's.

But what the style argument for Federer reminds me of is Kimmage saying he trusts in Kohl because Kohl looks clean. Looks got **** to do with it. Not everyone who takes steroids will look like Arnie Schwarzneger.

 

[sniper]

...

good post good points.

5 Not everything a doper does in their life is related to their doping. If one of the top 4 tennis players had a car crash tomorrow it wouldnt mean they were speeding away from a doping ring or that they were under the influence of doping products.

Life goes on just as normal for someone who has taken epo in the morning as for someone who hasn't. You cannot read into everything you hear about a tennis player and interpret it as having anything to do with match fixing or doping.

While I agree with the thrust of your point, we're talking about Nadal here becoming the best hardcourt player ever after a knee injury that supposedly jeopardized his carreer.
right.

and we're talking about Murray's back injury shortly before he crushed the field at Wimbledon.
I've dealt with back injuries myself, and that aint funny and you surely aren't going to produce your best tennis whilst suffering a back injury.
Murray allegedly had a backinjury before and after wimbledon, but not during wimbledon?


So especially Nadal and to a lesser extent Murray are just two very odd cases.

 

[zebedee]

The ITF anti-doping tribunal decision regarding Cilic is out.

http://www.itftennis.com/media/158356/158356.pdf

At 8), Cilic is described as an "honest and truthful man". By 44) though he has resorted to lying, conjuring up a phony knee injury as cover for pulling out of Wimbledon and starting his silent ban.

We know that the ITF acted complicitly in going along with his lie. But who else knew? Pulling out of a tournament at short notice citing injury, requires a medical certificate. Did the people at Wimbledon know? Were they going along with the big lie too? If so, that shows massive disrespect and contempt for their paying customers. Was a fake medical certificate produced? Who signed it? If no certificate was supplied at Wimbledon, this suggests the tournament committee were in on the lie too. What about the tournaments that followed like the Montreal Masters, a compulsory event for a top player like Cilic. What certificate were they given? Who supplied it?

Questions, questions questions. Where are the journalists?

Murray's back problem is an irrelevancy in the context of other issues affecting tennis right now.

 

[sniper]

At 8), Cilic is described as an "honest and truthful man". By 44) though he has resorted to lying, conjuring up a phony knee injury as cover for pulling out of Wimbledon and starting his silent ban.

hilarious!

Questions, questions questions. Where are the journalists?

+1

like FIFA, these ITF guys own the press.
you ask doping questions you loose your backstage pass.

 

[zebedee]

In which case the sponsors should be asking the questions.

Not that I'd expect some major tennis sponsors, the likes of Hugo Boss for example - recently exposed as the designer and maker of Nazi SS uniforms - to want too much revealed. Ditto Nike.

Interesting that a former president of the Spanish tennis federation is now claiming that "many" other cover-ups of tennis doping have occurred in the past.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...en-hurting-tennis-as-cilic-feigns-injury.html

Now there speaks a man who knows a thing or two.

 

[thrawn]

In which case the sponsors should be asking the questions.

Not that I'd expect some major tennis sponsors, the likes of Hugo Boss for example - recently exposed as the designer and maker of Nazi SS uniforms - to want too much revealed. Ditto Nike.

Interesting that a former president of the Spanish tennis federation is now claiming that "many" other cover-ups of tennis doping have occurred in the past.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...en-hurting-tennis-as-cilic-feigns-injury.html

Now there speaks a man who knows a thing or two.

That article also made the SMH online in Australia.

Agree that the most interesting part was from the Spanish fed guy admitting that there were previous cover ups.

 

[sniper]

...
Interesting that a former president of the Spanish tennis federation is now claiming that "many" other cover-ups of tennis doping have occurred in the past.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...en-hurting-tennis-as-cilic-feigns-injury.html

Now there speaks a man who knows a thing or two.

that is interesting.

Add to that the following:
suspended Austrian tennis player Köllerer accuses Nadal of doping.
http://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/tennis-nadals-leistung-ohne-doping-unmöglich-095831210--ten.html
says the knee injury is complete bogus.
also talks about strong rumors in the tennis scene that nadal's doping has been and is being covered up by the governing body.
will summarize more later if i have the time and if nobody does it before me.

 

[thrawn]

that is interesting.

Add to that the following:
suspended Austrian tennis player Köllerer accuses Nadal of doping.
http://de.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/tennis-nadals-leistung-ohne-doping-unmöglich-095831210--ten.html
says the knee injury is complete bogus.
also talks about strong rumors in the tennis scene that nadal's doping has been and is being covered up by the governing body.
will summarize more later if i have the time and if nobody does it before me.

He's just a bitter, jealous former player that had to cheat to get anywhere in tennis. Nadal's camp like their credibility.

I'm sure I've missed something here

 

[sniper]

He's just a bitter, jealous former player that had to cheat to get anywhere in tennis. Nadal's camp like their credibility.

I'm sure I've missed something here

ow yes, that's gonna be their line of defense (if at all somebody's gonna confront them with this interview), and yes, the press is gonna swallow it uncritically once more.

meanwhile, everybody with a brain knows what time it is.

freedom of speech? not in sports journalism.

 

[Bicycle]

Good to see someone saying what we all know. Only a guy with nothing to lose will say it though - everyone else has their snouts firmly in the trough.

 

[zebedee]

Koellerer is saying nothing that hasn't been said or intimated by many others around the sport. He just says it in his own idiosyncratic way, emphatically so.

Although banned for ever for match fixing, he never actually hid his interest in match betting as he used to plaster match odds all over his personal website. You couldn't be more in your face than Koellerer who was a highly entertaining character. He never hid his personality away, far from it, and dozens and dozens of other players can be safely assumed to be doing precisely what he was doing; in pro-tennis, journeymen throw matches to make a living. That's the life they lead.

Comments he makes need to be judged on their merit, not discarded simply because of who he is. As with Victor Conte, there's always a kernel in what they say, worth listening to.