Testing the use of short cranks

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CoachFergie said:
. Pursuiting in recent years has been a case study of just how rapidly one can adapt to the demands of the pursuit. In 1996 Boardman set a WR for 4000m 6 weeks after finishing the Tour de France and was able to adapt to the Superman position in that time. In 2000 the Germans (documented in MSSE) come off the road 14 days out from Sydney Olympics and their speed training was 5 x 5000m at 80% of goal pace and 6 x 2000m at goal pace before winning Teams Pursuit and Individual Pursuit Gold. In 2002 Brad Magee won Commonwealth Games IP Gold in 4:16 two days after finishing the TdF. Hayden Roulston was winning a stage race in France two weeks out from Beijing Silver in the IP and Taylor Phinney jumped off the plane as from Euro stage racing onto the track felt fast and set a 3000m junior world record the next day. Before the first of his World Pursuit titles he was racing a stage race in Mexico. Finally Jack Bobridge set the new WR this year on no track training hot off a win in Aussie Road Nationals and riding Tour Down Under.
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Ha! I was talking about this kinda stuff to someone just the other day.

This is off topic, but what this says to me is that absolute precise specificity (surely there's a tautology in there somewhere :p ) of interval training (precise intensity, duration, frequency, recovery periods) -- and possibly training programs in general -- for extended periods of time, for any event longer than the 1km is/are largely unnecessary. I'm not trying to put coaches out of work. :D

Like, these guys had 'simply' smashed themselves over some hard racing for a 'certain' amount of time, then just topped up with some speedy/snappy, short interval work. So, why go through months and months trying to work out your EXACT FTP, CTL, CPV, LT, LTHR, NMP, VO2, SST, etc, etc, right down to the second, watt, litre or bpm?! Simple :D
 
For those of you whom I've already bored with my crank length ramblings on other forums as 531Aussie, feel free to ignore the following. :p

Fergie, I gather you're looking for hard data rather than anecdotes, but here's mine anyway:

The short version: I'm 182cm with long-ish legs (89cm inseam) and size 43 feet. After a long-ish period of time using 170s a few years ago (prior to which I'd used 170 to 175, all for extended periods, and 165s for a couple of years on the track), I bought some 180s and persisted with them for roughly a year. I came to the conclusion that, when riding seated, the power 'issue' with longer vs shorter cranks is that, put very simply, it's a wash: while there's some extra leverage with longer cranks, they put the rider in a worse/weaker (lower) positon (weaker range of movement), so you can't use the extra leverage. In other words, the leverage is there, but the pedals are harder to push through most of the downstroke due to the extra knee and hip flexion, so any benefits are mostly nullified. Overall, I suspect I produce more slightly power on shorter cranks (172.5), when seated, at least (pedalling off the saddle is a very different story).


Longer version:


About 8 years ago, I became a bit obsessed with the idea of trying long cranks after an occasion where I accidentally put myself in a blind crank length test. I was doing a lot of commuting on a crappy bike with 170mm cranks, and the commute had a handful of steep-ish, short hills. One sunny day I dusted off one of my old racing bikes and took off. When I got to the regular hills, I flew over them!!! I was doing these climbs in a gear or two higher than normal, and couldn't work out why. I even got off the bike to check that it had the same cassette and chainrings that were on the other bike, and they were the same. It obviously turned out that this bike had longer cranks: 175mm. So, that was it, I had to get longer cranks on all my bikes :)

The commute was very short -- ~20km -- and was just to uni, so I wore casual clothes and jogging shoes with clips and straps. I think by 'flopping' my feet somewhat 'arbitrarily' on the pedals with the jogging shoes was why I didn't immediately notice the different length.

A couple of months later, after getting some cash together, and reading all the long crank stuff on the net, I got a couple of pairs of 180s. I initially loved them, and I suspect the placebo effect helped me have a few months of great rides and good races, during which I felt like I was riding pretty strong. I was particularly addicted to the extra power I'm sure i got when riding off the saddle. In my opinion, when the rider isn't 'constrained' by 'regular' joint angles when riding seated, the leverage of riding off the saddle with long cranks is definite and noticeable. I loved the 180s on rolling hill courses and some crits where I spent a lot of time off the saddle stomping out of corners and bridging graps. Long cranks are GREAT for riding off the saddle at low to moderate revs. I remember Pantani sometimes used 180s for mountain stages, and, as far as I recall, he spent a lot of time doing climbs off his seat.

After about 6 or 7 months with the 180s, my position suddenly started to bug me big time. I started to feel very low, relative to the pedal at the top of the stroke, and became more and more frustrated at not being able to "get on top of" the pedal through most of the downstroke. Despite this, i persevered for a few more months. The long cranks kept bugging me more and more, and when I started getting persisted medial pain in both knees, I began swapping between my "180 bikes" and one of my 'short crank' (175mm) bikes. The 175s didn't hurt my knees, I preferred the postion they put me in, and I felt that I rode just as well with them, if not slightly better. I loved that I was so high over the pedals that I could really pound the crap out of them. It was a big decision, :) but after spending probably another month or two switching between 180s and 175s I eventually sold the 180s and went looking for shorter cranks.

My local shop had a great deal on 2 pairs of DA 172.5s, so I bought them. I probably woulda been just as happy with 170s, or even 175s, but I took at shot at the 172.5s, and ended up liking them a lot.

The 172.5s are my main length, but I did occasionally miss the 180s on rolling routes, so I bought some 177.5s that I use every now and then.

I'm not a sprinter, so cadence was never an issue for me.

As others have suggested, aerodynamics is most likely always gunna me more important than any possible power differences obtained by using longer cranks, so if long cranks put your knees in your chest and it stuffs up your aero position, it's pointless.

To sum it up: as a former Olympian says about the subject: "If ya're farkin flyin', it doesn't matter what ya farkin use." :D


Eh, I've lost interest. :D......
 
Sep 23, 2010
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Captain Serious said:
For those of you whom I've already bored with my crank length ramblings on other forums as 531Aussie, feel free to ignore the following. :p

Fergie, I gather you're looking for hard data rather than anecdotes, but here's mine anyway:

The short version: I'm 182cm with long-ish legs (89cm inseam) and size 43 feet. After a long-ish period of time using 170s a few years ago (prior to which I'd used 170 to 175, all for extended periods, and 165s for a couple of years on the track), I bought some 180s and persisted with them for roughly a year. I came to the conclusion that, when riding seated, the power 'issue' with longer vs shorter cranks is that, put very simply, it's a wash: while there's some extra leverage with longer cranks, they put the rider in a worse/weaker (lower) positon (weaker range of movement), so you can't use the extra leverage. In other words, the leverage is there, but the pedals are harder to push through most of the downstroke due to the extra knee and hip flexion, so any benefits are mostly nullified. Overall, I suspect I produce more slightly power on shorter cranks (172.5), when seated, at least (pedalling off the saddle is a very different story).


Longer version:


About 8 years ago, I became a bit obsessed with the idea of trying long cranks after an occasion where I accidentally put myself in a blind crank length test. I was doing a lot of commuting on a crappy bike with 170mm cranks, and the commute had a handful of steep-ish, short hills. One sunny day I dusted off one of my old racing bikes and took off. When I got to the regular hills, I flew over them!!! I was doing these climbs in a gear or two higher than normal, and couldn't work out why. I even got off the bike to check that it had the same cassette and chainrings that were on the other bike, and they were the same. It obviously turned out that this bike had longer cranks: 175mm. So, that was it, I had to get longer cranks on all my bikes :)

The commute was very short -- ~20km -- and was just to uni, so I wore casual clothes and jogging shoes with clips and straps. I think by 'flopping' my feet somewhat 'arbitrarily' on the pedals with the jogging shoes was why I didn't immediately notice the different length.

A couple of months later, after getting some cash together, and reading all the long crank stuff on the net, I got a couple of pairs of 180s. I initially loved them, and I suspect the placebo effect helped me have a few months of great rides and good races, during which I felt like I was riding pretty strong. I was particularly addicted to the extra power I'm sure i got when riding off the saddle. In my opinion, when the rider isn't 'constrained' by 'regular' joint angles when riding seated, the leverage of riding off the saddle with long cranks is definite and noticeable. I loved the 180s on rolling hill courses and some crits where I spent a lot of time off the saddle stomping out of corners and bridging graps. Long cranks are GREAT for riding off the saddle at low to moderate revs. I remember Pantani sometimes used 180s for mountain stages, and, as far as I recall, he spent a lot of time doing clibs off his seat.

After about 6 or 7 months with the 180s, my position suddenly started to bug me big time. I started to feel very low, relative to the pedal at the top of the stroke, and became more and more frustrated at not being able to "get on top of" the pedal through most of the downstroke. Despite this, i persevered for a few more months. The long cranks kept bugging me more and more, and when I started getting persisted medial pain in both knees, I began swapping between my "180 bikes" and one of my 'short crank' (175mm) bikes. The 175s didn't hurt my knees, I preferred the postion they put me in, and I felt that I rode just as well with them, if not slightly better. I loved that I was so high over the pedals that I could really pound the crap out of them. It was a big decision, :) but after spending probably another month or two switching between 180s and 175s I eventually sold the 180s and went looking for shorter cranks.

My local shop had a great deal on 2 pairs of DA 172.5s, so I bought them. I probably woulda been just as happy with 170s, or even 175s, but I took at shot at the 172.5s, and ended up liking them a lot.

The 172.5s are my main length, but I did occasionally miss the 180s on rolling routes, so I bought some 177.5s that I use every now and then.

I'm not a sprinter, so cadence was never an issue for me.

As others have suggested, aerodynamics is most likely always gunna me more important than any possible power differences obtained by using longer cranks, so if long cranks put your knees in your chest and it stuffs up your aero position, it's pointless.

To sum it up: as a former Olympian says about the subject: "If ya're farkin flyin', it doesn't matter what ya farkin use." :D


Eh, I've lost interest. :D......
Your experience seated pretty much agrees with mine, power is pretty much a wash, but I found one thing more. With shorter cranks I have been able to lower my front end considerably, without losing any power.

Regarding out of the saddle climbing it has taken some time to learn how to climb equally to longer cranks using shorter cranks. Two things I needed to learn. I needed to learn how to pull up on the back stroke with considerable force to compensate for the lack of "leverage" on the pushing side and I needed to gear the bike such that I could keep somewhat higher cadences when climbing. Once I learned these "tricks" I have been able to climb pretty much at the same speed on 90 mm cranks as I used to on 175 mm cranks. So, once you learn how to adapt, out of the saddle power seems pretty much a wash also.
 
Captain Serious said:
Ha! I was talking about this kinda stuff to someone just the other day.

This is off topic, but what this says to me is that absolute precise specificity (surely there's a tautology in there somewhere :p ) of interval training (precise intensity, duration, frequency, recovery periods) -- and possibly training programs in general -- for extended periods of time, for any event longer than the 1km is/are largely unnecessary. I'm not trying to put coaches out of work. :D

Like, these guys had 'simply' smashed themselves over some hard racing for a 'certain' amount of time, then just topped up with some speedy/snappy, short interval work. So, why go through months and months trying to work out your EXACT FTP, CTL, CPV, LT, LTHR, NMP, VO2, SST, etc, etc, right down to the second, watt, litre or bpm?! Simple :D

I said the exact same thing on wattage a few days ago.

Even though I am fairly well acquainted with the ins and outs of racing and training with a power meter it's fair to say my coaching and training methods haven't changed that much since I started in 1992. I was producing National Champions well before I knew what a watt was and in fact in recent years have actually shifted back to the stuff that Lydiard prescribed in the 60s.

All I have in the powermeter is a better yardstick to test the progress. Fair to say this has created more work as the rider can prove he has done what I prescribe and can see quite clearly if results have been attained.

If I wished to BS my riders I could test things like lactate threshold and pick a higher turnpoint or claim their heart rate was higher at 4mmol or rig a TT to claim some magic improvement. The real test is race day and I don't think the rider will be happy if their 5min mean maximal power increased but they performed below their usual standard.

It is also the best yardstick to test equipment or positions on the bike.
 
Captain Serious said:
This is off topic, but what this says to me is that absolute precise specificity (surely there's a tautology in there somewhere :p ) of interval training (precise intensity, duration, frequency, recovery periods) -- and possibly training programs in general -- for extended periods of time, for any event longer than the 1km is/are largely unnecessary. I'm not trying to put coaches out of work. :D

Like, these guys had 'simply' smashed themselves over some hard racing for a 'certain' amount of time, then just topped up with some speedy/snappy, short interval work. So, why go through months and months trying to work out your EXACT FTP, CTL, CPV, LT, LTHR, NMP, VO2, SST, etc, etc, right down to the second, watt, litre or bpm?! Simple :D
I'm not sure many do try to nail things down that far. Day to day fluctuations are more than that anyway.

Nevertheless, there are replicable patterns if you get the data consistently right to an acceptable level of accuracy.

As for training programs in general - I don't quite agree with that. I see plenty of riders who don't follow plans and accordingly don't perform to their potential, but once you get them going in the right direction with their training, then performance improves.

What the power meter does is help you realise how much flexibility we actually have in the training we perform.

That's all part of racing and training with power, and not by power.
 

oldborn

BANNED
May 14, 2010
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Captain Serious said:
Ha! I was talking about this kinda stuff to someone just the other day.

This is off topic, but what this says to me is that absolute precise specificity (surely there's a tautology in there somewhere :p ) of interval training (precise intensity, duration, frequency, recovery periods) -- and possibly training programs in general -- for extended periods of time, for any event longer than the 1km is/are largely unnecessary. I'm not trying to put coaches out of work. :D

Like, these guys had 'simply' smashed themselves over some hard racing for a 'certain' amount of time, then just topped up with some speedy/snappy, short interval work. So, why go through months and months trying to work out your EXACT FTP, CTL, CPV, LT, LTHR, NMP, VO2, SST, etc, etc, right down to the second, watt, litre or bpm?! Simple

You are wright, specificity, periodization is hype for sure.
But IMHO it is really easy to jump from stage race to 1000m or 4000m track race, try reverse from 1000m or 4000m background to 3 weeks race without no training at all, it would be interesting;)

Remember those two Kenyan riders, one of them was Nderi Dude with 42min 10sec for Alpe de Huez it would be result who would put him in top half of ITT for TDF;), and they have no or little training for that event.