Not sure how/why we are still having this discussion, as i'm sure you're smart enough to understand why there is a big difference between your example and what happened. But ok, that's all i'm going to say about it.
-
The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to
In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.
Thanks!
- Status
Totally agree.
Prior till now I've never heard of the person. I don't know his background or his world-views, nor does anyone else.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the guy didn't know his words went beyond the riders he was coaching. For all I know, he was making a joke. Making a joke does not make one racist.
This reminds of the the story when a prominent black comedian from South Africa was spending time with a friend in NYC who suggested a restaurant that served awesome food, including fried chicken. The guy immediately apologized for his racist remark and all his friend could do was laugh.
He said that comment is not even remotely racist. Take is easy, the guy said. That does not come anywhere near the definition of racism.
I have lived most of my adult life working as a social and economic justice advocate, and it really worries me when stuff like this gets blown way out of proportion, especially considering the blatantly obvious examples of human rights abuses occurring right under our noses. Yet topics like those are taboo. The hypocrisy abounds.
Lagab, one of the two riders involved, took it as racist, though. I'm an, um, "visible minority," but wouldn't have commented on it, if I had been in his place. But I'm not. He has a every right.
Agree though that if you record a random person in secret, you'll likely hear some messed up stuff, regardless of ethnic background or nationality.
Hardcore racist or not, the German coach could be looking at a life ban, yes? I read something to that effect, but can't find it right now.
Agree though that if you record a random person in secret, you'll likely hear some messed up stuff, regardless of ethnic background or nationality.
Hardcore racist or not, the German coach could be looking at a life ban, yes? I read something to that effect, but can't find it right now.
No, no, no, no!
Yes, sometimes these things get blown out of proportion, for instance until recently there was a German word for a pepper sauce that was used commonly and even printed on all the products, but some people feel insulted by it - but it has been used for decades, people have used it from their childhood on and never thought about it, it was just the normal word. If they use it now it's probably because they forget in that moment it's no longer okay or they don't even know and doesn't make them racist. Things like that, I can understand, some words just slip on your tongue. Or the insults using words that are degrading people with disabilities, that children and teenagers were throwing around when I was young, I always found it disgusting and some terms I didn't even understand, but I guess they just never thought about the actual words, they just used them because friends and older siblings used them, it was common and the meaning didn't actually matter to them.
A case like this is completely different. I don't know who he is married to and it doesn't matter. It's a word that does get used, from time to time, it's clearly pejorative and degrades athletes from certain countries because of bad stereotypes, it is not common though, nothing that would in such a situation ever slip on my tongue.
It also wasn't a joke, I wouldn't know what's funny about it anyway, it was to "motivate" Arndt, who at least taking his words afterwards, didn't feel motivated by this at all.
I'm not sure if you cannot understand it because you don't speak German, but there is absolutely no excuse for this, it makes a person racist, yes, and I'm shocked anybody would think it's somehow okay.
Yes, sometimes these things get blown out of proportion, for instance until recently there was a German word for a pepper sauce that was used commonly and even printed on all the products, but some people feel insulted by it - but it has been used for decades, people have used it from their childhood on and never thought about it, it was just the normal word. If they use it now it's probably because they forget in that moment it's no longer okay or they don't even know and doesn't make them racist. Things like that, I can understand, some words just slip on your tongue. Or the insults using words that are degrading people with disabilities, that children and teenagers were throwing around when I was young, I always found it disgusting and some terms I didn't even understand, but I guess they just never thought about the actual words, they just used them because friends and older siblings used them, it was common and the meaning didn't actually matter to them.
A case like this is completely different. I don't know who he is married to and it doesn't matter. It's a word that does get used, from time to time, it's clearly pejorative and degrades athletes from certain countries because of bad stereotypes, it is not common though, nothing that would in such a situation ever slip on my tongue.
It also wasn't a joke, I wouldn't know what's funny about it anyway, it was to "motivate" Arndt, who at least taking his words afterwards, didn't feel motivated by this at all.
I'm not sure if you cannot understand it because you don't speak German, but there is absolutely no excuse for this, it makes a person racist, yes, and I'm shocked anybody would think it's somehow okay.
I don't think it's questionable that what he said was wholly unacceptable and also completely moronic. And that alone should be enough to boot him from the Olympics. I'll leave it at that.
That wouldnt be a racist remark. That would just be a remark.
Not what the German coach did. He was racist
@Logic-is-your-friend
You used the word smart. But that is the real underlying issue here. Today it is just impossible to conduct a smart and constructive discussion regarding some oppressing issues on the internet. It just doesn't work anymore. Basically the internet expects you to be dumb and nod your head. If you don't play by that rules the mob will come. For example for my views in this thread i would likely be called a racists. I just find that deeply disturbing and i don't want my children to live in such world. Hence i will do my part to improve it.
@BlueRoads
In general i agree but in reality i don't want to live in such word. It's basically extremism and in general i don't support extremism of any kind.
@Salvarani
OK Camel herder is racist and Cow herder is not. Point taken.
@spoink47
IMHO the discussion we had has basically little to do with racism.
Anyway i agree that no further point in discussing it. We did our part.
You used the word smart. But that is the real underlying issue here. Today it is just impossible to conduct a smart and constructive discussion regarding some oppressing issues on the internet. It just doesn't work anymore. Basically the internet expects you to be dumb and nod your head. If you don't play by that rules the mob will come. For example for my views in this thread i would likely be called a racists. I just find that deeply disturbing and i don't want my children to live in such world. Hence i will do my part to improve it.
@BlueRoads
In general i agree but in reality i don't want to live in such word. It's basically extremism and in general i don't support extremism of any kind.
@Salvarani
OK Camel herder is racist and Cow herder is not. Point taken.
@spoink47
IMHO the discussion we had has basically little to do with racism.
Anyway i agree that no further point in discussing it. We did our part.
It is the context of the situation and the people involved.
Your example was just not a good example. Get over it.
I understand the forum fatigue with this issue, but this is important. Here's a rare chance to hear from one of the recipients of the German coach's abuse:
Azzedine Lagab awaiting apology as Olympic experience is marred by racism scandal
'I could have left the Olympics anonymous but proud, but the German coach made me famous in a way I didn't want'
www.cyclingnews.com
Racism, pure and simple. Papering it over doesn't cut it.
@VeloMaster
If only life could be that pure and simple. Not sure i would want to live in it, though.
If only life could be that pure and simple. Not sure i would want to live in it, though.
Ib4 Albasini offers the German coach a position as his 2nd in command on the Swiss national team.
On another note, it looks like the Italian federation will use the lack of medals as a reason to get rid of Cassani. Roght now multiple media outlets are reporting that Bramati is in prime position to replace him, while still keeping his job at DQ (like Hauptmann as the Slowenian coach)
On another note, it looks like the Italian federation will use the lack of medals as a reason to get rid of Cassani. Roght now multiple media outlets are reporting that Bramati is in prime position to replace him, while still keeping his job at DQ (like Hauptmann as the Slowenian coach)
The crux of your argument here seems to be that being called a racist is equivalent to racism, which is staggeringly unoriginal. The fact that you haven't mentioned cancel culture yet makes me suspect you may just be extremely naive and unaware of the political context of the argument you've made. Either way, if you find this topic uncomfortable you might want to consider why that's the case instead of throwing your opinions out there.
How is it extremism? The term "camel herder" is not in and of itself racist, but when used as a specific (and pejorative) identifier for somebody from an Arab nation it is. And unlike the examples with Moscon and Albasini where more sympathetic views were suggesting that those riders were not racists, but simply so incensed that they just wanted to cause as much offence as possible with their comments, so used racist vocabulary to do so (which I don't necessarily buy, because considering it OK to use racist vocabulary to insult somebody of the race that would be insulted by that vocabulary is one of the ways we could reasonably identify racists), Moster was not using this as a specific insult to the rider in question, so anger or frustration impacting rational thought can be ruled out.
@Libertine Seguros
Well, thank you for doing that, due diligence. We could further debate some conclusions and other aspects of it but i feel that the "unpopular" approach reached the goal. Make one person think.
Basically yes. If you apply all the filters, as you would normally do in real life, and take the context into consideration. After do adapt that to "western culture". Basically for people to understand it a bit easier.
What happened is a coach of a cycling team said to one of his team members go catch that cowboy. And after all hell broke loose.
But is this still all that important? Isn't it yesterdays news? Hot topic today is lets determine if Patrick Lefevere is a bully and a woman hater, or not. We have around 3 days to determine that and obviously (if) guilty to make him pay.
Well, thank you for doing that, due diligence. We could further debate some conclusions and other aspects of it but i feel that the "unpopular" approach reached the goal. Make one person think.
Basically yes. If you apply all the filters, as you would normally do in real life, and take the context into consideration. After do adapt that to "western culture". Basically for people to understand it a bit easier.
What happened is a coach of a cycling team said to one of his team members go catch that cowboy. And after all hell broke loose.
But is this still all that important? Isn't it yesterdays news? Hot topic today is lets determine if Patrick Lefevere is a bully and a woman hater, or not. We have around 3 days to determine that and obviously (if) guilty to make him pay.
I admit, three quarters of your post I don't get. The quarter I do understand makes me angry.
Please just stick to your Primoz-posts.
Angry does not automatically equal being right. Especially not in some 3 day lynching sprees that don't affect you personally.
There are a lot of angry, better enraged, people on the internet. And as that mob started to affect real life. By promoting extremism on both ends of the spectre. Usually triggered by a mean of a manipulation. Basically it became abusive and it started creating victims. Hence i will take a pass on your suggestion. BUT will for sure be around in Primož posts. Likely a bit of defending Kuss from time to time will be needed, neutralising attacks.
There are a lot of angry, better enraged, people on the internet. And as that mob started to affect real life. By promoting extremism on both ends of the spectre. Usually triggered by a mean of a manipulation. Basically it became abusive and it started creating victims. Hence i will take a pass on your suggestion. BUT will for sure be around in Primož posts. Likely a bit of defending Kuss from time to time will be needed, neutralising attacks.
Lynching spree? Extremism because one is not okay with racism and calls it what it is? I am not asking for the man to be hanged, I only think that in such a position in sports, representing in a way the national team, he's totally in the wrong place.
Triggered by a means of manipulation?
Your words are awful and twisting. I consider myself to be a very measured person in such things, I don't easily become a part of a "mob". Your words can just make one sick, but maybe that's your goal.
@BlueRoads
Obviously, how on earth could you not be right. It's such a no brainer.
Admittedly i was there myself at some point in my life. It basically took me years to realise i was promoting extremism that doesn't help to solve the problems i would like to get resolved in any meaningful way.
Or in plain English.
These days i have no desire to storm US Capitol or to believe a dose of black humour is a bad thing. No internet mob will tell me otherwise.
Obviously, how on earth could you not be right. It's such a no brainer.
Admittedly i was there myself at some point in my life. It basically took me years to realise i was promoting extremism that doesn't help to solve the problems i would like to get resolved in any meaningful way.
Or in plain English.
These days i have no desire to storm US Capitol or to believe a dose of black humour is a bad thing. No internet mob will tell me otherwise.
Yes, I've "applied all the filters", and come to the conclusion that using pejorative language towards people of a different race, in order to belittle them because of their race, is a bad thing and people that do so should be held accountable for their actions.
This discussion reminds me of my youth back in the 1980s US. My father enjoyed watching NCAA Basketball on TV by sitting cross-legged in the middle of the room, rocking back-back-and-forth and shouting racial slurs at the non-Caucasian players. He said it was his way of relaxing. Now, did little kid me view that behavior as racist? Of course I did. Did I think that "deep down" my father was a "real racist" or just a "non-racist who wanted to relax?" The behavior was real and I didn't even care about worthless metaphysical debates. Did I view his behavior as relaxing? LOL no, it seemed both angry and crazy to kid me. I also attended a few NCAA games in person with my father. Even he wasn't stupid enough to yell racial slurs when he was in public, let alone at a the biggest international sports event in the world with his actions recorded and broadcast around the globe.
@Libertine Seguros
For now i am rather OK with you taking the time and thinking about it for a while and acknowledging the term used is not racist by itself. Thank you for doing that.
As for us to still not fully agreeing on the possible further conclusions. That is OK and no need to get extreme about it.
For now i am rather OK with you taking the time and thinking about it for a while and acknowledging the term used is not racist by itself. Thank you for doing that.
As for us to still not fully agreeing on the possible further conclusions. That is OK and no need to get extreme about it.
But this is only in the same way as, if I say somebody is a "monkey" because they're misbehaving or an "ape" because they're clumsy or oafish, that isn't racist. If I were to say somebody is a "monkey" or an "ape" because they're black, on the other hand, that IS racist, because those terms have been used (and equivalents in a variety of languages) to belittle or insult black people on racial lines for decades. Similarly, use of "camel-herder" not as an identifier for somebody who actually herds camels, but instead as a pejorative identifier for somebody from the Middle East, is racist.
Would you say that Yank(ee) is a (potentially) racist remark?
EDIT: Okay, maybe a better example is calling a German Kraut. Clearly derogatory, but racist?
Last edited:
- Status
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
Liege Bastogne Liege-7 hour monument, Sunday, April 21, 2024- Started by topcat
- Replies: 985
-
Paris - Roubaix 2024, one day monument, April 7- Started by Dreginald
- Replies: 2K
-
-
-
De Ronde van Vlaanderen (270.8 km), 2024 March 31 (Sunday)- Started by Netserk
- Replies: 1K
-
Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread- Started by DNP-Old
- Replies: 24K
Latest posts
-
-
-
77th Tour de Romandie (2.UWT) // 23rd - 28th of April 2024- Latest: Slavique Nuke
-
-
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram