The 500 Tests/Never tested positive lie

[thehog]

You've given me a thought - perhaps the 500 includes self tests!

Yes. Maybe he included Ferrari's tests.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I am not sure I understand how inclusive the numbers are all told.

29 tests by solely the USADA between 2001 and 2010.
63 reported in le Equipe some time before 2004.

It seems like we are missing a lot of information still. Notably, before 2001. Do we know if the published le Equipe numbers are since the early 90's? One poster suggested (I think) that they may not include day-in-yellow and stage win tests. What about any other agencies that might be involved?

We should also include his positives, as they are in fact tests...

Lances 2009 Passport data that he published shows 33 tests that year. Can we assume the same number for the next year?

So 92, 33 and ~5 positives that are documented, with another 30 or so (assumed 2010 passport tests), at least: what about 83 days in yellow? Stage wins? Other GT/stage race/classics tests (haha, but maybe the 98 vuelta)? I imagine the tests at WCs, not to mention everything (anything?) else from the 90's.

If this thread is aimed to dispel disinformation, lets make sure we have accurate information. Not to mention my own curiosity

 

[D-Queued]

I am not sure I understand how inclusive the numbers are all told.

29 tests by solely the USADA between 2001 and 2010.
63 reported in le Equipe some time before 2004.

It seems like we are missing a lot of information still. Notably, before 2001. Do we know if the published le Equipe numbers are since the early 90's? One poster suggested (I think) that they may not include day-in-yellow and stage win tests. What about any other agencies that might be involved?

We should also include his positives, as they are in fact tests...

Lances 2009 Passport data that he published shows 33 tests that year. Can we assume the same number for the next year?

So 92, 33 and ~5 positives that are documented, with another 30 or so (assumed 2010 passport tests), at least: what about 83 days in yellow? Stage wins? Other GT tests (haha, but maybe the 98 vuelta)? I imagine the tests at WCs, not to mention everything (anything?) else from the 90's.

If this thread is aimed to dispel disinformation, lets make sure we have accurate information. Not to mention my own curiosity

Well, we should obviously include all of his positives. I had no idea the number of positives was that high.



The list you linked begs more scrutiny.

First, of the 27 Passport tests, eleven (almost half) were not tested for EPO.

Why not? Why was the UCI so selective in what tests were run on an athlete with Lance's history of suspicion? It is not like Lance was pack fodder and had no possibility of affecting classification results.

I wish I could be that creative with what I report, or not, on my tax return.

Wouldn't the time period from the end of April through to the start of the Tour be exactly when the riders might be extracting/re-infusing/topping up with EPO? All those samples, and no EPO test?

The next strange thing are the results just before, during and after the TdF. Those are some wild swings in these numbers. I'd like to jack my HCT up by 7.5 points in two weeks!

Dave.

 

[Microchip]

... That he was the most tested athlete in history ...

Lance's PR people are almost correct, almost.

What they really meant: "He was the most non-tested athlete in history." There! Now it's correct. Just a small blip in the transmission. The UCI can explain.

 

[ChrisE]

Perhaps I am taking this out of context, but doesn't this really point to the sophistication of the dopers and practitioners?

When you are paying $800k* to a Doc to optimize your doping program, part .....

Let's leave LA out of it and discuss the bigger picture of my post. I know that must be hard but let's try.

If dopers are more sophisticated than the tests, then doesn't that make the tests inept? We can spin this in all sorts of directions but the fun for me runs out pretty fast when this wordplay all leads back to the same place. Athletes are not getting caught by the testing methods in place.

This is not discussed in the press. Y'all rant about the press not pressing LA about the 500, yet the question isn't being asked how he and others pass tests while doping, whatever the number is. Extrapolating that makes all sports suspect. You think the few random football players per year that get caught are the only ones in the NFL doing that? Right.

This is not being covered in the press. Now back to 'Everything LA' forum.

 

[MrRoboto]

It seems like the testing have been stepped up quite alot the last years at least. I'm guessing the competition testing in the 90's were absolutely terrible though. No one were busted in the 90's. Anyone got any numbers how much a top cyclist would be tested in the mid 90's?

And...do we have any hematocrit values on Lance in first tour wins?

 

[goggalor]

Lance's PR people are almost correct, almost.

What they really meant: "He was the most non-tested athlete in history." There! Now it's correct. Just a small blip in the transmission. The UCI can explain.

That's the meme among the Livestrongites, while the truth is he's the second most tested American cyclist in the 2000s named Armstrong! Doesn't have the same ring to it.

 

[thehog]

It seems like the testing have been stepped up quite alot the last years at least. I'm guessing the competition testing in the 90's were absolutely terrible though. No one were busted in the 90's. Anyone got any numbers how much a top cyclist would be tested in the mid 90's?

And...do we have any hematocrit values on Lance in first tour wins?

The 2000s were just as bad.

Armstrong or Hincapie never recieved an OOC test whilst in Girona. They were only OOC'd in the US post season.

Go figure that one out! Preparing for the Tour and you're not tested!

No wonder the limited racing program.

 

[Merckx index]

Some more tests to add:

He held the leaders jersey a total 13 times in the DL (99, 00, 02-04), and four times in the TDS (02). He also won the points jersey in the 2005 DL, I don’t know how many days he was the leader. So that is at least 18 more tests. Also, here are other wins in the 99-05 period (total of 15). Gerogia palmares may be included in USADA tests.

2004 (6)
Tour of Georgia, 2 stage wins + GC
Tour of Languedoc-Roussilon, 1 stage win
1st, 4th Stage: Volta Algarve Portugal ITT
Stiphout Criterium: NL

2003 (1)
Graz Criterium Austria

2002 (3)
Final General Classification: GP Midi Libre

GP Bittburger Nightime Criterium: GER

Stiphout Criterium: NL

2000 (2)
GP des Nations
GP Merckx

1999 (3)
1st, Draai van de Kaai Criterium Roosendal, NL

1st, Boxmeer Criterium, NL

1st, Heerlen Criterium, NL

Finally, here are his wins pre-99. Total of 38.

1992 (2)
1st, Stage 4a, Vuelta Galicia, Spain

1st, GP Sanson-Marostica, Italy

1993 (11)
1st, World Professional Road Championship, Oslo, Norway

1st, Stage 8 Tour de France: Verdun
1st, Stage 3: Tour Of Sweden: Helmstad

1st, USPRO National Championships

1st, Prologue TT, Wheeling

1st, Stage 1, Wheeling & Final General Classification

1st, KMart Classic, West Virginia

1st, Thrift Drug Classic
1st, Trofeo Laigueglia

1st Stage 5, Tour du Pont: Beech Mountain
1st Overall, Tour Of America

1994 (3)
1st, Stage 7: Beech Mountain Tour du Pont

1st, Thrift Drug Classic

1st, Stage 5: Beckley KMart Classic

1995 (9)
1st, Stage 18 Tour de France: Limoges

1st, Clasika San Sebastian World Cup

1st, Stage 5 Paris-Nice: St. Etienne

1st, Stage 4, 5 (ITT), 9 + Final General Classification: Tour du Pont

1st, Stage 4 + Final General Classification: KMart West Virginia Classic

1996 (8)
1st, Fleche Wallone

1st, five stages & Final General Classification: Tour du Pont

1st, Stage 11, Fresca International Series

1998 (5)
1st, Stage 1 + Final General Classification: Tour Of Luxembourg

1st, Final General Classification: Rheinland Pfalz Rundfart

1st, Final General Classification: Cascade Classic

1st, Ride For The Roses Criterium, Austin

All told, 71 possible tests to add to everything else listed. Plus the discrepancy of six in the 02 and 03 TDFs, and the 17 not included in the 05 TDF. That makes 94. Still well below 500. If you add OOC tests and count the passports, you might get to 250.

Edit: to be as anal as possible here, let me add another test in 09. Astana won the TTT, I assume they were all tested.

A little more: from 1993-2005, he had 19 top three non-winning finishes, I don't know how many of these would be tested. Also, in 2000 DL, in addition to being in yellow one day, he finished on podium and won KOM, so at least one more test there. And podium in 2009 TDF.

 

[thehog]

Passports shouldn't count as they're not tested to find a positive nor a negative.

 

[peterst6906]

All told, 71 possible tests to add to everything else listed. Plus the discrepancy of six in the 02 and 03 TDFs, and the 17 not included in the 05 TDF. That makes 94. Still well below 500. If you add OOC tests and count the passports, you might get to 250.

The only way I can see him legitimately claiming to have passed more than 500 tests is by separating the samples from the tests.

That is: no. of samples != no. of tests

If each blood/urine sample is screened for multiple analytes (or multiple classes of analyte), he may be claiming that each separate sample preparation/measurement counts +1, even if from the same original sample.

 

[Race Radio]

Some more tests to add:

He held the leaders jersey a total 13 times in the DL (99, 00, 02-04), and four times in the TDS (02). He also won the points jersey in the 2005 DL, I don’t know how many days he was the leader. So that is at least 18 more tests. Also, here are other wins in the 99-05 period (total of 15). Gerogia palmares may be included in USADA tests.

2004 (6)
Tour of Georgia, 2 stage wins + GC
Tour of Languedoc-Roussilon, 1 stage win
1st, 4th Stage: Volta Algarve Portugal ITT
Stiphout Criterium: NL

2003 (1)
Graz Criterium Austria

2002 (3)
Final General Classification: GP Midi Libre

GP Bittburger Nightime Criterium: GER

Stiphout Criterium: NL

2000 (2)
GP des Nations
GP Merckx

1999 (3)
1st, Draai van de Kaai Criterium Roosendal, NL

1st, Boxmeer Criterium, NL

1st, Heerlen Criterium, NL

Finally, here are his wins pre-99. Total of 38.

1992 (2)
1st, Stage 4a, Vuelta Galicia, Spain

1st, GP Sanson-Marostica, Italy

1993 (11)
1st, World Professional Road Championship, Oslo, Norway

1st, Stage 8 Tour de France: Verdun
1st, Stage 3: Tour Of Sweden: Helmstad

1st, USPRO National Championships

1st, Prologue TT, Wheeling

1st, Stage 1, Wheeling & Final General Classification

1st, KMart Classic, West Virginia

1st, Thrift Drug Classic
1st, Trofeo Laigueglia

1st Stage 5, Tour du Pont: Beech Mountain
1st Overall, Tour Of America

1994 (3)
1st, Stage 7: Beech Mountain Tour du Pont

1st, Thrift Drug Classic

1st, Stage 5: Beckley KMart Classic

1995 (9)
1st, Stage 18 Tour de France: Limoges

1st, Clasika San Sebastian World Cup

1st, Stage 5 Paris-Nice: St. Etienne

1st, Stage 4, 5 (ITT), 9 + Final General Classification: Tour du Pont

1st, Stage 4 + Final General Classification: KMart West Virginia Classic

1996 (8)
1st, Fleche Wallone

1st, five stages & Final General Classification: Tour du Pont

1st, Stage 11, Fresca International Series

1998 (5)
1st, Stage 1 + Final General Classification: Tour Of Luxembourg

1st, Final General Classification: Rheinland Pfalz Rundfart

1st, Final General Classification: Cascade Classic

1st, Ride For The Roses Criterium, Austin

All told, 71 possible tests to add to everything else listed. Plus the discrepancy of six in the 02 and 03 TDFs, and the 17 not included in the 05 TDF. That makes 94. Still well below 500. If you add OOC tests and count the passports, you might get to 250.

Good info. IIRC ToG did not have testing and few of the early 90's US races had testing. No testing at the "Ride for the Rose" Crit. The Graz Crit in Austria, Draai van de Kaai Criterium Roosendal, Boxmeer Criterium, NL
 Heerlen Criterium etc are not officially sanctioned UCI race, The a post Tour crit. Historically they have no testing.

Still a struggle to get over 150.

 

[silverrocket]

You've given me a thought - perhaps the 500 includes self tests!

At first I laughed, then I thought you are probably right! Perhaps because Armstrong has been self-tested by his own own doctors/team, for the purposes of ensuring he will pass "official" doping controls, the actual number really is over 500. In his mind he remembers peeing in cups and having blood drawn over 500 times, which is why he can continually make that statement.

 

[Race Radio]

I am not sure I understand how inclusive the numbers are all told.

29 tests by solely the USADA between 2001 and 2010.
63 reported in le Equipe some time before 2004.

It seems like we are missing a lot of information still. Notably, before 2001. Do we know if the published le Equipe numbers are since the early 90's? One poster suggested (I think) that they may not include day-in-yellow and stage win tests. What about any other agencies that might be involved?

We should also include his positives, as they are in fact tests...

Lances 2009 Passport data that he published shows 33 tests that year. Can we assume the same number for the next year?

So 92, 33 and ~5 positives that are documented, with another 30 or so (assumed 2010 passport tests), at least: what about 83 days in yellow? Stage wins? Other GT/stage race/classics tests (haha, but maybe the 98 vuelta)? I imagine the tests at WCs, not to mention everything (anything?) else from the 90's.

If this thread is aimed to dispel disinformation, lets make sure we have accurate information. Not to mention my own curiosity

Merckxindex did a good job of the pre 2000 tests. Back then Out of Competition testing was almost unheard of. Most races test to 3 and 1 random. The le Equipe figures include days in Yellow, but not 2005 tests

A huge percentage coming during his comeback and it is a stretch

 

[Race Radio]

Here are some revised figures.

WADA/USADA 29
1999-2004 63
Various Races & pre 99 25
2005 20
BioBassport 44

Note that the figures Armstrong released are not only Biopassport figures, they also include other tests. I recall a number of 22 tests the first year with less the 2nd (17?). 44 is likely high

181 tests. 319 short of Armstrong's imaginary 500 number

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

Very Interesting...

This thread has done such a great job of rounding up so much of the testing data. Perhaps as it plays out we'll finally be able to come up with an accurate number.

What I find very interesting is that some months back I started a similar thread asking for help in compiling all of the tests and a moderator shut it down

What's changed since then?

 

[MrRoboto]

And then you have the "about 2 dozen" pre USADA tests trough Don Catlin's lab in the 90's. But I don't know if you would add those, since the outcome of those tests clearly didn't matter.

 

[D-Queued]

Some more tests to add:

... If you add OOC tests and count the passports, you might get to 250.

Edit: to be as anal as possible here, let me add another test in 09. Astana won the TTT, I assume they were all tested.

...

The OOC tests are already included in the USADA numbers. The passport tests are already accounted for - even if they do not actually qualify as an anti-doping test.

RR has discussed the races that do not/did not have testing. Agree with his numbers, except that there are too many Passport tests being credited (and none should be).

Someone can confirm, but I am pretty sure that they do not test all the riders on a winning TTT test - rather select a couple of randoms from the winning group.

One thing that has not yet been accounted for are the US Olympic team tests (remember that LA was on the list of USOC hidden positives). Maybe add as many as 6 for this?

Dave.

 

[Square-pedaller]

And then there was the famous 20 min shower test. Wasn't that an OOC test done in France by ?AFLD ?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I figure we should count passport tests. I believe the goal is to prove/disprove lances proclaimed 500 tests. Someone else tested his samples, which I think is a good line to draw (as opposed to his own/his doctor's monitoring tests), for the sake of that statement.

Also, would the AFLD have the same kind of test search as the USADA? I don't know french, and it won't plug into google translator: https://www.afld.fr/

 

[red_flanders]

The OOC tests are already included in the USADA numbers. The passport tests are already accounted for - even if they do not actually qualify as an anti-doping test.

Pretty thin debating ground to not call passport tests anti-doping tests. I would certainly count anytime a cycling authority put a cup in my hand or a needle in my arm as a dope test.

 

[Race Radio]

Someone can confirm, but I am pretty sure that they do not test all the riders on a winning TTT test - rather select a couple of randoms from the winning group.

In the old days they one take a few but recently they test the entire team

Of course that does not matter much if you keep the anti doping chaperon waiting outside your bus. Against the rules but the chaperon is a former Pro, he knows the game.

 

[Race Radio]

I figure we should count passport tests. I believe the goal is to prove/disprove lances proclaimed 500 tests. Someone else tested his samples, which I think is a good line to draw (as opposed to his own/his doctor's monitoring tests), for the sake of that statement.

Also, would the AFLD have the same kind of test search as the USADA? I don't know french, and it won't plug into google translator: https://www.afld.fr/

AFLD is the French arm of WADA. All WADA test should show up under USADA as that is what Lance's license is under

 

[D-Queued]

Pretty thin debating ground to not call passport tests anti-doping tests. I would certainly count anytime a cycling authority put a cup in my hand or a needle in my arm as a dope test.

According to WADA they were not, and WADA is the definitive anti-doping body.

If a Team (Festina) or a Doctor (Ferrari, Fuentes, ...), or other known needle pusher (Carmichael/USOC) instigates their own 'anti-doping' tests, these would not qualify either unless WADA blessed them.

But, while they don't really count, it makes perfect sense that we have all included them to try and rationalize the 500 test overstatement. I am not arguing about that, just that they always deserve an asterisk.

AFLD is the French arm of WADA. All WADA test should show up under USADA as that is what Lance's license is under

And just for further clarification, USADA is responsible for ALL out of competition tests. USADA could request AFLD to collect samples, but the reporting would be USADA's responbility.

Finally, maybe we should count 'missed official tests' as well, since USADA/WADA, etc., would include this. There is at least one (well known) example of Lance ditching the USADA rep in Austin. Add 1 to the list.

Dave.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

AFLD is the French arm of WADA. All WADA test should show up under USADA as that is what Lance's license is under

Are you sure? From that USADA search thing

This search will also include tests conducted on U.S. athletes training internationally by other testing entities when the request for the test was made by USADA. This search will not yield results conducted on U.S. athletes by other testing entities, if the test was not requested or initiated by USADA, or tests conducted by USADA at the request of other sport organizations, international federations or individuals.

Maybe I don't know enough about the hierarchy/relationship of WADA and national testing agencies