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The Aqua Blue Sport thread

Page 6 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
They're hardly the first Pro Conti team to collapse due to wildcard system, run like it is. He actually made some very raw points about the absurdity of how race organisers lock out business investment in cycling. Why do you think pretty much every team exists, not because it is a good financial investment, but because the owners of teams love cycling and use their own money to fund them? That's a broken system and it stems out of the wild card system where there is no solid business foundation or real criteria to anything in cycling because race organisers and UCI have zero synergy between them at a business development model all other sports basically now have. This isn't the 1920's anymore run by old boys clubs.
 
Re: Re:

RedheadDane said:
yaco said:
RedheadDane said:
luckyboy said:
CN reporting that the TOB was supposed to be their last race but the race programme has been terminated.

Just totally pathetic behaviour from Delaney.


"As the question had arisen earlier, we don't not want to limit our riders of participating in races. Riders are free to participate in races. Riders are free to participate, at their own expense, in races as they see fit. Thank you for your understanding, and you can expect further updates in the coming days.

Surely they can't participate in any race if they don't have a team.

Riders can ride for other national teams who have a spot in a race - This happens right throughout the season - Of course there will be limited opportunities later in the season.

So, what you're saying is that the British riders should hurry and get a nat team spot for the ToB?

AB's spot has been given to Wiggins Development Team. At least ToB actually uses a known wildcard selection criteria!
 
Re: Re:

RedheadDane said:
yaco said:
RedheadDane said:
luckyboy said:
CN reporting that the TOB was supposed to be their last race but the race programme has been terminated.

Just totally pathetic behaviour from Delaney.


"As the question had arisen earlier, we don't not want to limit our riders of participating in races. Riders are free to participate in races. Riders are free to participate, at their own expense, in races as they see fit. Thank you for your understanding, and you can expect further updates in the coming days.

Surely they can't participate in any race if they don't have a team.

Riders can ride for other national teams who have a spot in a race - This happens right throughout the season - Of course there will be limited opportunities later in the season.

So, what you're saying is that the British riders should hurry and get a nat team spot for the ToB?

Why not - And there are many races left in the season.
 
Re:

samhocking said:
They're hardly the first Pro Conti team to collapse due to wildcard system, run like it is. He actually made some very raw points about the absurdity of how race organisers lock out business investment in cycling. Why do you think pretty much every team exists, not because it is a good financial investment, but because the owners of teams love cycling and use their own money to fund them? That's a broken system and it stems out of the wild card system where there is no solid business foundation or real criteria to anything in cycling because race organisers and UCI have zero synergy between them at a business development model all other sports basically now have. This isn't the 1920's anymore run by old boys clubs.

They haven’t collapsed due to the wildcard system. They collapsed because the plutocrat who owns them had a tantrum about the wildcard system and has marched off leaving the team’s employees in the lurch. Maybe the wildcard system made them unviable in the long run. There’s certainly a strong case to be made that it makes it nearly impossible for PCT teams from outside the countries of major race organisers to operate as anything other than very overpriced Conti teams. But those structural issues did not force the team to stop racing mid season. It’s owners did that.
 
I think his investors are probably asking how come we had all this exposure on TV last year and this year there is hardly any and now our web traffic has fallen through the floor. As you say, you can't run a business like that where the marketing goalposts move all the time and in this case, simply don't exist one year.
 
But as Zinoviev Letter says, they haven't been left in the lurch by the wildcard system. They benefited from it far more than most first year teams with comparable rosters - One Pro Cycling are a much better example of an Anglo team that wound up being essentially an expensive Conti team. Aqua Blue got to do monuments and even a GT in their first year of existence - not their first ProConti year, like the likes of Vacansoleil or MTN-Qhubeka who had been smaller teams who put up the money to bring in riders that fans and race organizers wanted to see, but their first year of existence. Vacansoleil got a slice of luck with the Vuelta having a Dutch start and the battle over invites based on the original ProTour invitees vs. the new ProTour teams as the UCI started shifting who it granted licences to was taking place so a couple of newer WT teams were not compulsory invites (Katyusha missed out from that Vuelta, for example). MTN-Qhubeka got an invite to Milan-San Remo (Classics are always easier to get invites to because there are typically up to 25 teams rather than 22, leaving almost twice as many wildcards available) and got a very fortunate win, but after that they were set.

Aqua Blue got a lot more out of their first season than most of the wildcard teams that have established themselves managed at that level. It took NetApp (now Bora-Hansgrohe) three years to get a GT invite. Did that create unreasonable expectations on behalf of the sponsors or the team brass? Probably, given the hissy fit Delaney threw when the Vuelta didn't give them a wildcard. But the question is, what was the X factor that Aqua Blue had to offer? I'm on record as saying Delko would probably have been better for last year's Vuelta than Aqua Blue, but in the end with Denifl's stage win Aqua Blue merited their spot - but unfortunately for them, the big signing coups they made for this year were not established pros but in fact young prospects which didn't add too much to their existing proposition now other than in those riders' home markets.

The other question is, what races were they looking to do? Because, looking at the roster that they have, especially with Nordhaug having retired, they would surely, surely find Classics more fertile ground than aiming for GTs? Denifl had a good win in the Vuelta last year, sure, but apart from that they don't even really have too many high level stagehunters, so it's not a very wild wildcard to pick if there's already a couple of local teams to populate the breakaway. In the highest profile mountainous race they got to do, the Tour de Suisse, their best GC finisher was 41st. Yes, you can argue they offer a better proposition to the Vuelta than Burgos-BH, but given the race goes through País Vasco and the seasons that Ion Aberasturi and Edu Prades are having, no way do they offer a better proposition to the Vuelta than Euskadi-Murias. And regardless of the vagaries of the wildcard system, actively attacking the race organisers is not the smartest way to curry favour with them when you rely on them to get you the invitations that your calendar is contingent upon - it's not like they were in the position, with the smaller roster and the current reduced ProConti numbers, to go the Vacansoleil route of proving the organisers wrong by obliterating .HC and .1 races instead, either.

Even then, that doesn't excuse the rather childish, selfish way Delaney has gone about this. Lots of teams have been forced to the wall, sure, but the likes of Vacansoleil did right by the riders, giving them every opportunity to complete the calendar and put themselves in the shop window. It seems Delaney has thrown a big tantrum, because first it was "the team is looking at signing Richie Porte", then it was "the team is merging" - neither of which suggest a team that is dropping mid-season due to financial problems like happened to Vorarlberg-Corratec or Scott-Marcondes César - then it was "the team will fold", which at least had some kind of reasonable sense behind it. Then it was "the Tour of Britain will be their last race", and then in the course of 24 hours it's become "the team is dead as of right this second". The merger announcement was a bit embarrassing, I've seen suggestions the premature announcement was to try to strong-arm Verandas Willems into agreeing a deal seeing as it was in the public domain now, but I'm not sure how much credence I give that idea - more likely either a genuine error in jumping the gun or just a typically aggressive attempt at self-marketing from Delaney and the team. But how it's all fallen apart in 48 hours, it's just given the impression that Delaney's just decided if he can't get his way, he's taking his ball and going home, without a care in the world for the people who get hurt, who worked for him for nearly two years (or more given the time needed to set up the team). While firing pot shots and conspiracy theories at everybody who didn't let him get his way in his press releases, and keeping his own staff and riders in the dark about what was going on.

Instead of bowing out gracefully and then firing his shots once the riders and staff have been looked after, in the space of a couple of days, Delaney has joined the likes of Juan Pablo Pino and Chris White. If they do try to get the team off the ground again (which I now very much doubt in the wake of the last 24 hours), what self-respecting rider is going to buy a deal Delaney brokers?
 
Re:

King Of The Wolds said:
I find it very strange, given that, as of this moment anyway, aquabluesport.com is open for business, they'd choose not to take the outstanding publicity that the ToB would give them in, I assume, their biggest market.

But what would your commitment be as a rider going to a race knowing that there was a higher than average chance that you weren't going to be paid?
 
Re:

samhocking said:
They're hardly the first Pro Conti team to collapse due to wildcard system, run like it is. He actually made some very raw points about the absurdity of how race organisers lock out business investment in cycling. Why do you think pretty much every team exists, not because it is a good financial investment, but because the owners of teams love cycling and use their own money to fund them? That's a broken system and it stems out of the wild card system where there is no solid business foundation or real criteria to anything in cycling because race organisers and UCI have zero synergy between them at a business development model all other sports basically now have. This isn't the 1920's anymore run by old boys clubs.
Aqua Blue has been extremely lucky to get as many wild cards as they did in their first year. Multiple classics - including a monument - stage races such as the Tour de Suisse AND a Vuelta start for a first year Pro Conti team was basically unheard of until last year.

It looks like Delaney’s expectations were raised to unrealistic levels after the success of their first season.
 
Sep 20, 2011
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Re:

samhocking said:
They're hardly the first Pro Conti team to collapse due to wildcard system, run like it is. He actually made some very raw points about the absurdity of how race organisers lock out business investment in cycling. Why do you think pretty much every team exists, not because it is a good financial investment, but because the owners of teams love cycling and use their own money to fund them? That's a broken system and it stems out of the wild card system where there is no solid business foundation or real criteria to anything in cycling because race organisers and UCI have zero synergy between them at a business development model all other sports basically now have. This isn't the 1920's anymore run by old boys clubs.

LOL, they’re one of the worst professional teams around, good riddance. The only invitation a guy like Delaney deserves is one for the one way train to the modern equivalent of a Soviet gulag.
 
Aqua Blue Sport does have a new CEO - Tom Timmerman the ex-CEO of United Dutch Breweries (who make Oranjeboom which was the team's only other sponsor).

Some speculation that Aqua Blue as an entity was sold a while ago and that's why the plug has been pulled.

https://twitter.com/lukascph/status/1034452372376965120
https://twitter.com/lukascph/status/1034452827056353280
Something was buried in the VW-Crelan acquistion PR that turned out to be more important than I thought at the time: The Aqua Blue Sport web-shop was sold off by Delaney (new CEO Tim Timmermans), probably for a handsome amount of money.

Once the new bosses found out there was no money (nor anything else, really), they pulled the plug. Immediately. Delaney, meanwhile, got the golden handshake he came for; and what happened to the team wasn't his business any more. Ugh.
 
Yet another example of how amateur the sport is. I mean, it's only 2018; invites/ wildcards are something from another era. Have a proper transparent system in place for entries; rather than what we have now, which is slightly shambolic. If there was a proper system in place, then AB probably wouldn't have made a lot of races, but at least you know you're being treated fairly. Rather than if you come from the right country.

And while I did have sympathy for the team, pulling their ToB entry and riders finding out the way they did is not classy.
 
Dec 30, 2015
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i said it before and say it again. reduce the WT teams to 10/12/15max, and increase the wild cards and invitations for PC teams.
some teams just go to some races because they're obliged to. give their place to teams that want to
 
Re:

FilipeFD said:
i said it before and say it again. reduce the WT teams to 10/12/15max, and increase the wild cards and invitations for PC teams.
some teams just go to some races because they're obliged to. give their place to teams that want to

PC teams are struggling to compete with WT teams - Reducing the number of WT teams will only exacerbate the problem for PC teams.
 
Re: Re:

yaco said:
FilipeFD said:
i said it before and say it again. reduce the WT teams to 10/12/15max, and increase the wild cards and invitations for PC teams.
some teams just go to some races because they're obliged to. give their place to teams that want to

PC teams are struggling to compete with WT teams - Reducing the number of WT teams will only exacerbate the problem for PC teams.
That's not what happened when we had GS 1 & GS 2 teams and only few GS 1 teams had a guaranteed spot for grand tours. Even a team like Landbouwkrediet was more value for the Giro d'Italia with a general classification rider like Popovych, than some Pro Tour teams are nowadays!
 
I don't have any issue having a wildcard system, but it should be used as is typical in most sports today, where it's simply to allow teams that didn't meet the qualification standard to be allowed to compete up a level still.
ie If Grand Tours always have x number of places unfilled by World Tour teams available to Pro Continental teams and a Pro Continental team doesn't meet that qualification standard to be one of them, then you can use a wildcard system to allow them to still race. At the moment though, there is always wild card places for Pro Continental teams, but there is no qualification standard to be one of those wildcard teams. In most cases it's simply Italian teams got to Giro, Spanish to Vuelta and French to Tour or the race organiser takes payments/sweeteners/deals from the sponsor it seems, because the race organiser fully understands the value of their race on TV to the sponsors and makes money from that practice, which is basically not compatible with how morden business and sports now operate.
If you want the sport to be a World Tour, you have to make it about all teams in the World fighting to be the best team in that World Tour and for the Pro Continental teams, be the best Pro Continental team to get promoted to World Tour if that's their aim. For those teams like Caja Rural who don't necessarily aim to be a World Tour level, they have no need to race World Tour races, they simply need to finish above relegation to Continental level, not that even that actually exists either in practice.
 
Top 10 teams in WT invited to TdF and all five monuments. Top 12 invited to the GT's. All other teams invited to every other WT race.

Although now I think of it, that would probably make riders ride even more defensively for a 12th on GC in the Dauphiné or something ridiculous.

Gosh, I don't know.
 
The problem is the wildcards and the calendar. The wildcards remain at the whim of the organizers. Very few teams are capable of fielding a team for all the GTs + Monuments like Movistar doing PR just because it is obligatory. The wildcard if based ranking on the Country, Parcours, AAFs etc, should enable the relevant riders to race the the races they can do their best and know which races they are going to participate in the next season, at the end of the current season itself.
 
The way Sweetspot decide Wildcards for ToB for the Continental teams makes sense. It's based on a pretty clear selection criteria. This year, near the selection time, JLT Condor topped the competition with 35 points, two ahead of ONE Pro Cycling who are were on the verge of competing in the race for the fourth year running. OVO Energy Tour Series runners-up Madison Genesis were on 32 points. The fourth and final spot is incredibly tight, as Team WIGGINS sit on 30 points, just one ahead of Tour Series champions Canyon Eisberg.

Aqua Blue have folded and so Team Wiggins was the next most qualified team based on points to take their place. It just seems fair and good business sense for everyone, that at the end of the season, you as a team and sponsor can say, "right, we want to race ToB next year, these are the races we need to race, these are the results we need, what riders, staff, funding do we need to buy to make that happen" and they can then propose that to their sponsor, making the case that we need this amount of money and this amount of time and we should be abe to get your company on TV at ToB next year. That is simply not only fair to all Continental teams, its encouraging Sponsors to invest, knowing what they are getting into a season ahead.
 
Re:

samhocking said:
The way Sweetspot decide Wildcards for ToB for the Continental teams makes sense. It's based on a pretty clear selection criteria. This year, near the selection time, JLT Condor topped the competition with 35 points, two ahead of ONE Pro Cycling who are were on the verge of competing in the race for the fourth year running. OVO Energy Tour Series runners-up Madison Genesis were on 32 points. The fourth and final spot is incredibly tight, as Team WIGGINS sit on 30 points, just one ahead of Tour Series champions Canyon Eisberg.

Aqua Blue have folded and so Team Wiggins was the next most qualified team based on points to take their place. It just seems fair and good business sense for everyone, that at the end of the season, you as a team and sponsor can say, "right, we want to race ToB next year, these are the races we need to race, these are the results we need, what riders, staff, funding do we need to buy to make that happen" and they can then propose that to their sponsor, making the case that we need this amount of money and this amount of time and we should be abe to get your company on TV at ToB next year. That is simply not only fair to all Continental teams, its encouraging Sponsors to invest, knowing what they are getting into a season ahead.

The ToB has run this system and ended up with 4 British teams, correct? If they were to pick wildcards, I would think it likely that at least 3 of them would be chosen anyway. If the Vuelta ran a similar system based on Spanish races then unless ABS were able to enter the domestique Spanish calendar they're still likely to miss out.
 
Sometimes I was thinking some sort of year-rolling system like tennis has. 15 best teams get in as well as three best teams from P16-30 from the host country. Dual nationalities are allowed for teams but secondary nationality may be granted only if team has certain number of riders from that country (something like Italian riders in UAE)
 

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