The Aqua Blue Sport thread

[King Boonen]

Pound-shop Tinkov did not earn himself many admirers.

 

[RedheadDane]

What? The team members were told about all of this - the "merger" with Verandas and now the folding - through the media?
Though Pedersen didn't seem too surprised that if any Pro-Conti team would fold it would be them.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

When teams are a rich man’s hobby, they survive as long as his interest holds. Many team’s are rich men’s hobbies, ultimately, but with Aquablue that status was more obvious because there wasn’t even a token presence at commercial sponsorship (as with say BMC). It looks as if the rich dude considered putting yet more money in to get access to big races, so there were some negotiations with marquee riders like Porte and an attempt to acquire one by slyer means through a merger. Ultimately he seems to have decided that he wasn’t interested in continuing to pump the budget of a biggish PCT team into a team that has no route into big races. And short of either a major budget upgrade on top of their existing one or miraculously becoming French/Italian/Spanish there’s no way to accomplish that.

Ultimately the PCT division exists to get riders from the traditional cycling powers who aren’t good enough for the WT into big races. If you aren’t from one of those countries, your choices are (a) have backers who can and will outright buy you race spots or (b) operate as a bad value Conti team. Delaney never seems to have really grasped that, at least until it was too late. To be fair, that reality was somewhat disguised in his first year in the sport by the temporary weakness of the PCT division in the traditional cycling countries, allowing his team to get into races on the basis of novelty. This year, the basic structure of the sport reasserted itself.

I don't think this is especially fair. While yes, there is an element of the ProConti level containing a bunch of overspill from the traditional cycling nations, and the recent weakness of Spanish cycling having opened up that opportunity for Aqua Blue to get in, if we look at the current World Tour teams there are several which have built up from being ProContinental over the course of the days since the ProTour began. Even if we discount BMC because of what we discussed when the Vuelta wildcards were first announced, and the Cervélo/BMC option not being available, there's still Bora-Hansgrohe, Dimension Data and EF-Drapac that have grown up from the lower levels that are not in the big four cycling markets - Bora built up in their NetApp days to doing GTs over a four year period, did their first Tour in their 5th season, and didn't make big money signings until Sagan and Majka for 2017 which got them across the WT line. MTN had been a small continental team for a while before becoming a ProContinental concern. They got very lucky with their victory in their first monument in 2013, but that helped them get GT invites in their second ProConti year and a Tour invite in their third, before the signing of Cavendish got them across the WT line. Garmin started as a Continental team and were extremely fortunate, getting two GT invites in their second ProContinental year, thanks to ASO and UCI being at odds with one another and Astana being excluded from the Tour, as well as the intention of keeping the US market interested following the retirement of Armstrong and the vilification of Landis. Even then, however, it has taken them not one but two mergers to stay at that level.

But, if you look at the World Tour, or ProTour as it was back then in 2008, there are four French ProTour teams, three Spanish teams and two Italian ones. The Giro was the hardest GT for an international team to secure a wildcard because of the sheer number of Italian teams hunting wildcards - Acqua e Sapone, Savio's mob, CSF, Ceramica Flaminia, CarmioOro, LPR Brakes/De Rosa, ISD/Farnese Vini - and so there was a more international flavour to the wildcards, at least at the Tour and Vuelta. Now, however, the combination of poor economies in at least two of the traditional cycling nations and the lingering effects of Pat McQuaid's globalisation drive combined with the success of quasi-national projects from non-traditional cycling nations, such as Katyusha, Sky and Astana, has led to a World Tour which has far less of the regional traditional feel that it did ten years ago. For better or for worse that may be, but it has meant that there are fewer "home" teams on show at the biggest races, which means a much bigger swing in favour of the "home" teams in the wildcard system, because with only two French, one Spanish and no Italian-registered teams (UAE-Abu Dhabi is an Italian team to all intents and purposes, being a continuation of Lampre, but of course is not registered in the country) at the top level, in order to market the race to casual fans, the organisers are keen to safeguard the home interest which potentially makes it harder for an outsider to "break in" as those teams mentioned above did, unless, like last year at the Vuelta, there is a dearth of home interest ProContinental teams.

Although it was their first season as opposed to Vacansoleil's fourth (first at ProConti), the Dutch outfit are perhaps the closest avatar for Aqua Blue. They got lucky in 2009 - ASO's collaboration with Unipublic wasn't as strong as now but influence was beginning, the Vuelta was starting in the Netherlands and the other Dutch wildcard contenders, Skil-Shimano (today's Sunweb of course), had had a Tour invite and were by no means strong enough to contest two back to back GTs. Vacansoleil were a hit at the Vuelta, with Johnny Hoogerland being a constant animator and finishing a creditable 12th, and Borut Božič winning a stage. However, in 2010, as well as Cervélo, there was a second big money ProConti team in town, with BMC acquiring Evans, Ballan and Hincapie, and so with those two bogarting two wildcards, Vacansoleil were snubbed first by the Giro, who gave two Italian teams the remaining wildcards, then the Tour, which had its prior arrangements with Bbox-Bouygues Télécom and Cofidis, and offered Cervélo the third spot, leaving a straight head to head between a paper thin BMC doing two back to back GTs and the Vacansoleil team; the draw of Evans was too much and the Dutch outfit missed out. To add insult to injury, because the Vuelta also had its agreement with the two French teams, it even snubbed the ProTour Radioshack team but with Cervélo and two Spanish ProContinental teams (including a contender for overall victory) there was no room at the inn.

The problem is that, while Vacansoleil made up for their snubs by smashing the UCI Europe Tour to pieces and making some rather dubious signings with a lot of points potential that earned them a World Tour berth the next year, that hasn't really been possible for Aqua Blue. The ProContinental rosters are neither as big (Vacansoleil in 2010 had 26 riders including stagiares, Aqua Blue have 16) nor are the calendars as strong as then (also, make no bones, Vacansoleil's roster in 2010, with Hoogerland, Carrara, Leukemans, Carrara, Božič and the Feillu brothers, was both stronger and with more sops to the GT organisers than Aqua Blue's), and also it must be said that Rick Delaney's attitude, especially after not getting the Vuelta wildcard he clearly felt would be more or less automatic after the team's race last season even after it became abundantly clear that with three Spanish ProContis this year, there was going to be more competition for places) has rubbed some people up the wrong way and probably helped make a case against them in some instances. Whether that be cycling being an old boy's club (certainly not the first time nor the last those accusations can be levelled) or self-delusion or self-entitlement on Delaney's part (or, most likely, a combination of both), that cannot be overlooked. I can totally see why the Vuelta didn't invite them this year (also remember that, even if he was on the roster in 2017 without any issues, Larry Warbasse was the one that was in the press telling people they should be grateful for the riders' disrespecting the time cut at the Vuelta, which can't have gone down well with Unipublic), and they've also suffered from the expansion of the World Tour to some extent because a couple of years ago they wouldn't have needed a wildcard for races like the Tour of California. The reasons for the closed ProContinental wildcards are different from in 2010, but just like Vacansoleil, Aqua Blue benefited from helpful circumstances in 2017 that meant they got to the highest level races in their first year, and then lost out due to less fortunate circumstances a year later.

 

[nedhill]

I feel for the riders on the team.

Like many, I didn't see a way an e-commerce site would finance a team.

I just hope that Rick Delaney can be enough of a business person to honor his contracts through the end of the year. Which means paying all the agreed upon salaries and expenses to the riders and staff as well as any business expenses. Filing for bankruptcy and hiding from the bills would be very unfortunate.

 

[RedheadDane]

Or, if possible, pay the riders - and other staff members - for the remainder of their contracts. At least those who aren't able to secure a job on another team.

 

[luckyboy]

And now they've pulled out of the Tour of Britain five days before the start. Shambles of a team

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/08/aqua-blue-sport-cancels-tour-of-britain-participation-riders-left-in-limbo/

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re:

And now they've pulled out of the Tour of Britain five days before the start. Shambles of a team

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/08/aqua-blue-sport-cancels-tour-of-britain-participation-riders-left-in-limbo/

Minor plutocrat sulks and takes his ball home. This is obviously a disaster for riders who need to find a contract next year and now have an idle half season rather than opportunities to display their abilities. The next question is if they are all going to be paid or if the team is going to try to weasel out of paying up.

The cycling team model is badly broken, with so many teams essentially dependent on the interest and continuing goodwill of some super rich hobbyist or dodgy regime. These are not generally people with a deep sense of their obligations to others should they become disenchanted, frustrated or merely bored.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

And now they've pulled out of the Tour of Britain five days before the start. Shambles of a team

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/08/aqua-blue-sport-cancels-tour-of-britain-participation-riders-left-in-limbo/

What a disgraceful attitude by the team's management. The riders could have used the Tour of Britain to ride themselves into the picture for other teams.

 

[Gigs_98]

Denifl must be fuming right now. There is a WC taking place only a few dozens kilometers away from his home and his team robs him of his last chance to qualify for the team. This is absolutely shameful

 

[Pricey_sky]

Denifl must be fuming right now. There is a WC taking place only a few dozens kilometers away from his home and his team robs him of his last chance to qualify for the team. This is absolutely shameful

I’m not sure what other races Aqua Blue were registered to do, but he wasn’t down to start the Tour of Britain.

“Adam Blythe, Conor Dunne, Larry Warbasse, Mark Christian, Eddie Dunbar and Casper Pedersen were due to ride the Tour of Britain.”

 

[Tim Booth]

Denifl must be fuming right now. There is a WC taking place only a few dozens kilometers away from his home and his team robs him of his last chance to qualify for the team. This is absolutely shameful

maybe not. The Austrian long list for the WC was announced some days ago, and Denifl is on it.

 

[luckyboy]

CN reporting that the TOB was supposed to be their last race but the race programme has been terminated.

Just totally pathetic behaviour from Delaney.

Cyclingnews has obtained that email and has also learnt that in the team's Whatsapp group – which includes riders, staff and management – a rider asked legitimate questions about the team's future after finding out that Aqua Blue were folding via a press release. In the Whatsapp group, a teammate quickly responded with ''team's ended mate." Delaney then promptly left the group. Delaney has not responded to messages from Cyclingnews.

...

In an email sent last night, this time from Aqua Blue CEO Tim Timmerman, riders and staff were informed that the Tour of Britain would no longer be part of the team's schedule and that all riders were free to seek alternative plans and teams. It is unclear whether the riders will be paid for the remaining months on the team.

...

"As the question had arisen earlier, we don't not want to limit our riders of participating in races. Riders are free to participate in races. Riders are free to participate, at their own expense, in races as they see fit. Thank you for your understanding, and you can expect further updates in the coming days.

 

[Gigs_98]

Denifl must be fuming right now. There is a WC taking place only a few dozens kilometers away from his home and his team robs him of his last chance to qualify for the team. This is absolutely shameful

maybe not. The Austrian long list for the WC was announced some days ago, and Denifl is on it.

Yeah but they surely put him on that list hoping he would still show some shape in his coming races. No way they select him after the season he has had without another good result.
That said I'm actually not 100% sure he even would have been selected for another race this season. That doesn't change the point though that this is a ridiculous move by the team

 

[PeterB]

Re: Re:

The next question is if they are all going to be paid or if the team is going to try to weasel out of paying up.

Hopefully at least the money from the UCI mandatory bank guarantee will be available

The total of the guarantee shall represent a quarter of all the gross sums to be paid by
the UCI professional continental team to the riders and persons contracted for the
operation of the team during the registration year plus the amount of CHF 15,000.
...
In no event may the total amount of the bank guarantee be less than CHF 300,000.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

CN reporting that the TOB was supposed to be their last race but the race programme has been terminated.

Just totally pathetic behaviour from Delaney.

"As the question had arisen earlier, we don't not want to limit our riders of participating in races. Riders are free to participate in races. Riders are free to participate, at their own expense, in races as they see fit. Thank you for your understanding, and you can expect further updates in the coming days.

Surely they can't participate in any race if they don't have a team.

 

[wouterkaas]

Well technically they still have a team for this season, but I figure that it's logistically impossible.

What a mess and a horrible situation for the riders.

 

[RedheadDane]

So, if enough people - riders, DSes, staff - were willing to go to a race on their own dime, they would technically be allowed to race as Aqua Blue?
Or could they still technically race, but would have to "invent" a new team?

 

[wouterkaas]

I think your first option is the only possibility. They can basically use AquaBlue's license and race under their name, but they have to provide for everything themselves. That's how I understand the latest news.

 

[samhocking]

Another victim of the old boys criteria-less wildcard system. The whole mess of race organisers deciding who gets to race is simply not compatible with modern sponsorship and business. It probably worked 'sort-of' in the Mafia days of cycling's past where the entire sport ran on money laundering, but not today. Rick Delaney spoke out at the farce of it and surprise-surprise no race organisers invited him this year and his team collapses a month or two later. Disgusting and no doubt UCI will do nothing either!

 

[Jagartrott]

Ah, good old Sam Hocking is going along with Delaney's "it's because we didn't get enough wildcards - unfair!" narrative on the CN main page. Deluded.

Edit: and as I submit, here he is.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Another victim of the old boys criteria-less wildcard system. The whole mess of race organisers deciding who gets to race is simply not compatible with modern sponsorship and business. It probably worked 'sort-of' in the Mafia days of cycling's past where the entire sport ran on money laundering, but not today. Rick Delaney spoke out at the farce of it and surprise-surprise no race organisers invited him this year and his team collapses a month or two later. Disgusting and no doubt UCI will do nothing either!

AquaBlue's results don't warrant any invites ahead of teams like DirectEnergie, Cofidis, Wanty etc. In fact, if there was an actual criteria-based selection of WC teams they wouldn't have raced La Vuelta last year. So quit whining. Their results just weren't good enough, whether that is down to the bike experiment or the quality of their riders, it is their own responsibility. I had no particular feelings towards this team, good or bad, but the team management and in particular the team owner are showing their worst side in this fiasco. Even their press release confirming the team's disappearance showed a lot of arrogance and entitlement. Everyone is to blame except the team itself. You'd think they'd be a little more humble after this failure.

 

[Finn84]

This year 29 teams have been in GT - only Cofidis getting the invite twice.

I had the look and 2004 - the last season without season-long series including both stage races and classics had 36. Only four teams (Alessio-Bianchi, Fassa Bortolo, Phonak and Saeco) raced all GTs.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Another victim of the old boys criteria-less wildcard system. The whole mess of race organisers deciding who gets to race is simply not compatible with modern sponsorship and business. It probably worked 'sort-of' in the Mafia days of cycling's past where the entire sport ran on money laundering, but not today. Rick Delaney spoke out at the farce of it and surprise-surprise no race organisers invited him this year and his team collapses a month or two later. Disgusting and no doubt UCI will do nothing either!

I broadly agree that the wildcard system is broken, at least if you expect it to function in a way that gives any kind of fair chance to teams that are neither French/Italian/Spanish nor able to simply pay off organisers. It’s not of course broken if you see its purpose as allowing race organisers to pack the tail end of race fields with subpar riders from their own country and to extort some extra money out of an occasional team from elsewhere, which is exactly what it’s supposed to do from the point of view of race organisers. None of that however means that Aquablue have been forced to completely screw over their riders and staff like this. That is entirely the decision of the team owner and/or higher management.

Unless Delaney has been misrepresenting his resources all along and has run out of cash, which would be an example of extreme irresponsibility in itself and at least at the moment does not seem likely, what we have here is a minor plutocrat sulking and knocking all the pieces off a board because a game wasn’t going as he wanted. Nobody is forcing him to suddenly end the team in August, leaving his riders not just without contracts for next year but without an ability to use the rest of the season to impress other teams and find one. Some riders appear to have found out that they are sudddenly without a team on twitter for Gods sake. How is that the UCI’s fault or the ASO’s fault or anyone else’s fault other than the team? And now it doesn’t even seem clear that everyone will be fully paid.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

CN reporting that the TOB was supposed to be their last race but the race programme has been terminated.

Just totally pathetic behaviour from Delaney.

"As the question had arisen earlier, we don't not want to limit our riders of participating in races. Riders are free to participate in races. Riders are free to participate, at their own expense, in races as they see fit. Thank you for your understanding, and you can expect further updates in the coming days.

Surely they can't participate in any race if they don't have a team.

Riders can ride for other national teams who have a spot in a race - This happens right throughout the season - Of course there will be limited opportunities later in the season.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

CN reporting that the TOB was supposed to be their last race but the race programme has been terminated.

Just totally pathetic behaviour from Delaney.

"As the question had arisen earlier, we don't not want to limit our riders of participating in races. Riders are free to participate in races. Riders are free to participate, at their own expense, in races as they see fit. Thank you for your understanding, and you can expect further updates in the coming days.

Surely they can't participate in any race if they don't have a team.

Riders can ride for other national teams who have a spot in a race - This happens right throughout the season - Of course there will be limited opportunities later in the season.

So, what you're saying is that the British riders should hurry and get a nat team spot for the ToB?