The Aqua Blue Sport thread

[RedheadDane]

Also, why only the European Pro-Conti teams? That's still not a World Tour.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Also, why only the European Pro-Conti teams? That's still not a World Tour.

Rankings are done on race location rather than team location, so technically you could register a Colombian team, only race in Europe and secure a high European Tour ranking. There are certain races that might highlight good teams from other locations but there does need to be some competition. You're not going to convince races and teams that a wildcard sport for the Grand Tours should be going to teams that only race in Asia or Africa until the competition is on a par with Europe.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

Also, why only the European Pro-Conti teams? That's still not a World Tour.

Rankings are done on race location rather than team location, so technically you could register a Colombian team, only race in Europe and secure a high European Tour ranking. There are certain races that might highlight good teams from other locations but there does need to be some competition. You're not going to convince races and teams that a wildcard sport for the Grand Tours should be going to teams that only race in Asia or Africa until the competition is on a par with Europe.

Oh, like how Cavendish managed to win the Asia ranking a few years ago?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Also, why only the European Pro-Conti teams? That's still not a World Tour.

Rankings are done on race location rather than team location, so technically you could register a Colombian team, only race in Europe and secure a high European Tour ranking. There are certain races that might highlight good teams from other locations but there does need to be some competition. You're not going to convince races and teams that a wildcard sport for the Grand Tours should be going to teams that only race in Asia or Africa until the competition is on a par with Europe.

Oh, like how Cavendish managed to win the Asia ranking a few years ago?

Yep, if you check the rankings you'll see Delko Marseille are currently 2nd in the Africa Tour and Wilier Trestina are second in the Asia Tour.

 

[samhocking]

Well UCI's 'annual challenge system' or whatever they call it begins next year doesn't it, so the last ranked WorldTour team is replaced by the highest ranked Pro Continental team in the UCI WorldTour. The relegated team retains the right to particpate in all the following season's WorldTour events, but not obliged to.
So if relegation and promotion is possible into and out of World Tour, I don't see why that can't be adapted to simply include wildcard criteria in more real-time hierarchy based on previous seasons performances and upto the race organisers wildcard cutoff application date.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re:

Well UCI's 'annual challenge system' or whatever they call it begins next year doesn't it, so the last ranked WorldTour team is replaced by the highest ranked Pro Continental team in the UCI WorldTour. The relegated team retains the right to particpate in all the following season's WorldTour events, but not obliged to.
So if relegation and promotion is possible into and out of World Tour, I don't see why that can't be adapted to simply include wildcard criteria in more real-time hierarchy based on previous seasons performances and upto the race organisers wildcard cutoff application date.

If the annual challenge system works like that, it creates a perverse incentive among the weaker teams to get relegated rather than chase WT points to finish second last. A right to participate in all WT events while also having a right to opt out is better than just being in the WT and a relegated team should be stronger than the PCT teams and so win promotion again immediately.

 

[yaco]

Now here's an idea. As search wrote earlier, there are so many wildcard teams in the classics that there are usually no problems with teams missing out in those. What if we bring team sizes in GTs down to 7 or even 6, and invite 2-3 more wildcard teams. Then, let's say 2 or 3 teams are selected through a ranking (with the ToB system that if a team refuses, the next team in line received the invite) and 2 or 3 are selected by the organizers themselves.

Please the last thing we need is to reduce team sizes further to allow for the introduction of more Wildcard teams - The fact is the standard of PCT's has dropped in the last five years - You don't more them competing in major races.

 

[Valv.Piti]

A couple of more PCT would at least make flat stages or stages thats otherwise relatively easy to control more interesting.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Well UCI's 'annual challenge system' or whatever they call it begins next year doesn't it, so the last ranked WorldTour team is replaced by the highest ranked Pro Continental team in the UCI WorldTour. The relegated team retains the right to particpate in all the following season's WorldTour events, but not obliged to.
So if relegation and promotion is possible into and out of World Tour, I don't see why that can't be adapted to simply include wildcard criteria in more real-time hierarchy based on previous seasons performances and upto the race organisers wildcard cutoff application date.

If the annual challenge system works like that, it creates a perverse incentive among the weaker teams to get relegated rather than chase WT points to finish second last. A right to participate in all WT events while also having a right to opt out is better than just being in the WT and a relegated team should be stronger than the PCT teams and so win promotion again immediately.

Not really. Even if you aim to finish World Tour last so you get demoted, but still race World Tour races it only lasts for one year, then you've got to get promoted the following year anyway to remain in WT races. I would argue its going to be a lot more difficult to get promoted from Pro Continental status back to World Tour, you've actually got to be the best Pro Continental team to do that, so if you finished previous season last, that would be some turnaround in team performance. I would say impossible unless you get to keep all your WT riders once demoted for two years.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Well UCI's 'annual challenge system' or whatever they call it begins next year doesn't it, so the last ranked WorldTour team is replaced by the highest ranked Pro Continental team in the UCI WorldTour. The relegated team retains the right to particpate in all the following season's WorldTour events, but not obliged to.
So if relegation and promotion is possible into and out of World Tour, I don't see why that can't be adapted to simply include wildcard criteria in more real-time hierarchy based on previous seasons performances and upto the race organisers wildcard cutoff application date.

If the annual challenge system works like that, it creates a perverse incentive among the weaker teams to get relegated rather than chase WT points to finish second last. A right to participate in all WT events while also having a right to opt out is better than just being in the WT and a relegated team should be stronger than the PCT teams and so win promotion again immediately.

I think deliberate relegation would be playing a dangerous game, what if another PCT gad a cash injection or new sponsored team came along.

 

[pastronef]

https://www.twitter.com/calvin_watson/status/1035562284402257920

someone at Sticky-Bottle website showing no class

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

What exactly is wrong with a journalist fishing for the inside story? Or with offering anonymity to a potential source who might otherwise be in a vulnerable situation? There’s nothing classless about it.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

What exactly is wrong with a journalist fishing for the inside story? Or with offering anonymity to a potential source who might otherwise be in a vulnerable situation? There’s nothing classless about it.

In fact I think outing the journalist like that is rather classless. Journo was just doing his job and definitely not trying to spread "fake rumors".

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

What exactly is wrong with a journalist fishing for the inside story? Or with offering anonymity to a potential source who might otherwise be in a vulnerable situation? There’s nothing classless about it.

In fact I think outing the journalist like that is rather classless. Journo was just doing his job and definitely not trying to spread "fake rumors".

Yeah, if you don't want to spread "fake rumors" just... tell them the truth!

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

What exactly is wrong with a journalist fishing for the inside story? Or with offering anonymity to a potential source who might otherwise be in a vulnerable situation? There’s nothing classless about it.

In fact I think outing the journalist like that is rather classless. Journo was just doing his job and definitely not trying to spread "fake rumors".

I can only assume that Watson feels grateful that he got two years on a pro contract out of Delaney that he wouldn’t have got elsewhere based on his form. Arguably the weakest rider on the team. The guy has one result, winning a very early season stage race, the Herald Sun Tour, in 2013 before it started to attract a few big names, but has managed to get four years of pro contracts out of it despite doing nothing since.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

What exactly is wrong with a journalist fishing for the inside story? Or with offering anonymity to a potential source who might otherwise be in a vulnerable situation? There’s nothing classless about it.

In fact I think outing the journalist like that is rather classless. Journo was just doing his job and definitely not trying to spread "fake rumors".

Yeah, if you don't want to spread "fake rumors" just... tell them the truth!

I mean fair enough telling the journo in private that he isn't comfortable telling the story/that there is no story to tell. But outing the journo like that while the journo was in no way maliciously fishing for confirmation of rumors is classless. What's this meant to achieve?

 

[samhocking]

stickybottle clearly confused what off-the-record means in journalism and how it works lol!
There was fantastic long interview with Delaney in yesterdays TCP. Interesting that only 3 riders are out of contract for next year already and Delaney said if those final 3 still hadn't found a contract by December 31st he would still pay them. There's more gone on here than the media have said between 3T's and ABS. 3T claiming the mechanical problems were due to ABS mechanics not oiling chains properly and greasing bottom brackets is utter twaddle from Vroomen too!

 

[RedheadDane]

stickybottle clearly confused what off-the-record means in journalism and how it works lol!
There was fantastic long interview with Delaney in yesterdays TCP. Interesting that only 3 riders are out of contract for next year already and Delaney said if those final 3 still hadn't found a contract by December 31st he would still pay them. There's more gone on here than the media have said between 3T's and ABS. 3T claiming the mechanical problems were due to ABS mechanics not oiling chains properly and greasing bottom brackets is utter twaddle from Vroomen too!

Meaning that all riders - sans those three - have already secured new contracts?

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

I don’t quite follow the contracts part there Sam. Is Delaney saying that only three riders are contracted for 2019 or that only three riders are not contracted elsewhere in 2019?

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Dunne and Warbasse for instance are describing themselves as unemployed. They are currently doing some week long two man mountain riding trip with Rouleur magazine. They would be two of the six or seven riders you would expect to find a new contract first (along with Dunbar, Pedersen, Denifl, Norman Hansen and Archbold, who has been announced by LottoNL)

 

[samhocking]

Just listen to the TCP interview. My understanding is all riders will be paid their contract and the 3 out of contract will be paid even though not in their contract.

 

[samhocking]

Perhaps the most important point in that interview, is the reason for the merger was primarily to escape 3T's bike contract because the paying agent wouldn't be Aqua Blue anymore, it would be Sniper and so legally Aqua Blue wouldn't have to ride 3T Strada 1x.

 

[pastronef]

Re:

Just listen to the TCP interview. My understanding is all riders will be paid their contract and the 3 out of contract will be paid even though not in their contract.

they will be paid for the 2019 even if not racing?

 

[pastronef]

Re:

Perhaps the most important point in that interview, is the reason for the merger was primarily to escape 3T's bike contract because the paying agent wouldn't be Aqua Blue anymore, it would be Sniper and so legally Aqua Blue wouldn't have to ride 3T Strada 1x.

some of the riders already had a 3T Strada with 2 rings, Denifl was one of them. they would have used it during the 2019 season. no more 1 ring

 

[samhocking]

Delaney saying the teams was promised 2x within 6 months of signing contract, so i'm pretty sure the team were not on 2x other than that one rider testing. Even Tour de Suiss comms were apparently telling Delaney the team needed to sort their faulty bikes out!